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Wicked One ([info]visp) wrote in [info]otf_wank,
@ 2011-10-12 17:10:00


Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
Entry tags:defensiveness ahoy, food, it's not easy wanking green, let them eat cake, otf_wank's thoughts on weight

The Serious Side of Salad
Once upon a time, someone in facebook posted a "Why Geeks Make Better Boyfriends" list. Britney St. Patience felt the need to point out its inaccuracies. She prefaces it with "Sure there are geek guys out there who are great partners. But being a geek does not guarantee that a guy will be a great boyfriend."

It's a pretty standard 'Nice Guy' deconstruction.

The main highlights are:

Myth #3: Geeks are low maintenance
Supposedly geek guys make great boyfriends because they can subsist on pizza, Mt Dew, and your affection. Just wait until you meet one who will ONLY eat pizza and maybe 3-4 other foods, like some sort of overgrown five year old. It took me nearly a decade to get my computer programmer ex husband to eat salad. My Star Wars obsessed ex boyfriend could not be taken to nice restaurants because he refused to wear anything except ripped jeans and nerdy tees and would not eat anything he could not pronounce. LOW MAINTENANCE MY ASS.


and

Myth #6: Geeks appreciate women
This one is, by far, my favorite geek guy myth. The myth of the guy who spent all of high school playing D&D but secretly wanting someone to love and when he finally gets a girl he imprints on her and covers her in puppy-like devotion. OMG WHERE DO PEOPLE GET THIS SHIT? You know what really happens when guys don't get laid in high school or college and spend all their time reading coming books and filling their spank banks with Buffy the Vampire Slayer fanfic? They fill their little nerd brains with unrealistic expectations, waiting around for what one of my gamer friends calls a "magical pixie girl". An unattainably hot woman, who will love the nerd boy not in spite of his nerdiness but because of it and somehow his life will be transformed by her love. And he shall get a job. And he shall move out of his parents basement. And he shall cease to be whatever it is he dislikes about himself because the magical lady doth love him. But woe to any girl who does not live up to his fantasy. She will be treated with the same regard as yesterday's Mt Dew cans.


So, a little harsh, but all in all not a matter for anger, right? Wrong!


It gets posted to Metaquotes, and it starts to get weird.

First, the appetizer of rebuttals that only confirm the post.


The myth of the guy who spent all of high school playing D&D but secretly wanting someone to love and when he finally gets a girl he imprints on her and covers her in puppy-like devotion. OMG WHERE DO PEOPLE GET THIS SHIT?"


They get it from reality. That described me perfectly. It happened. It still happens. She completely ripped out my heart and shit in the hole eventually, and I got over this pattern... but it happens. That's where people get the idea.

The OP is demanding, high maintenance, dissatisfied with all the men out there... and yet continues to put herself into relationships with people SHE DOESN'T LIKE in some misguided attempt to make them into something she does like.

Of course it doesn't work, millions of people can tell you that (and probably did), and now she's bitter as a result of her mistakes, and is shifting the blame onto a large and diverse demographic that, in the aggregate, does NOT actually fit all the stereotypes she is perpetuating about them.


But then Candidgamera shows up and he Does. Not. Like. Salad.

If the girl I was dating was bizarrely fixated on me eating a salad, it wouldn't take me ten years to dump her sorry ass.

Making your husband eat a salad makes you a controlling harpy.

What follows is an extended debate over whether asking your spouse to eat salad is controlling, an act of deepest love for your dearest one, or something in between. Over salad.



(Read comments) - (Post a new comment)

Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness...
[info]ekaterinv
2011-10-13 03:22 am UTC (link)
Actually, being fat is not in and of itself unhealthy, unlike cigarette smoking. Not that we have any right to judge people who choose to do the latter, either, just that they belong in different categories. Also, there are a lot of tried and tested and proven to work methods of quitting smoking. There are zero tried and tested and proven methods of making fat people into thin people.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness...
[info]sandglass
2011-10-13 03:30 am UTC (link)
Oh, for sure. I don't mean to say that being fat is necessarily unhealthy, I don't think it is and I think most of the correlations found are likely because fat people also tend to be people who diet/have dieted a lot, just that people often tend to get judgmental over being fat or eating unhealthy, while forgiving other habits that are more likely to lead to health problems, but also don't involve just existing (for fat people) or eating (since you have to eat, regardless). Whereas drinking a lot is completely normalized, especially for younger people, but can lead to alcoholism, liver problems, etc.

I just wanted to avoid an argument of, "But being fat is so unhealthy!" by watering down my disapproval.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness...
[info]ekaterinv
2011-10-13 03:40 am UTC (link)
Totally understandable. I've had that argument so many times -- it's exhausting. And my mom believes all the evidence I send her, and vows to stop obsessing over her weight, but then goes right back to it again. At least I got her and her husband to stop talking about other peoples' weight by taking very serious offense when they told me they were worried about my fiance's weight and couldn't I do something about that.

(Reply to this)(Parent)

Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness...
[info]meagenimage
2011-10-13 03:38 am UTC (link)
I realise I have no place to talk here, so I'm just going to link the blog of a fat-positive feminist who decided to go on a diet because I think she makes some good points.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness...
[info]ekaterinv
2011-10-13 03:41 am UTC (link)
I will agree to disagree with you, and her, about those points.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness...
[info]meagenimage
2011-10-13 03:51 am UTC (link)
Well, if you have read the arguments and found them wanting, then there is nothing else I can do.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness...
[info]ekaterinv
2011-10-13 04:05 am UTC (link)
Her points about paying attention to her body and exercising are good. It's the fact that it's all mixed up in weight loss where I think she goes astray, and where I think it will be seriously triggering for some people. (It's triggering for me, so I hope I'm not coming off as mean or frothing.) It's great that her libido is higher now -- but I had a period of time when I had no libido as well. But then I and my "overweight" self and my "obese" fiance started to have the most amazing sex life, better than anything I'd ever dreamed back when I was thin and athletic and having sex with thin and athletic guys. I could make a few generalizations (we trusted each other completely and said fuck you to body image issues), but considering what our particular sex life involved otherwise, I would never say what we did would definitely work for most other people. Because it most definitely would not.

I say "had" because our sex life has tanked because I have three herniated disks from taking a dive while chasing a cat. I look back at body image issues I used to have before the amazing sex with my fiance, and I realize how lucky I was then.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness... - [info]visp, 2011-10-13 04:13 am UTC
Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness... - [info]ekaterinv, 2011-10-13 04:16 am UTC
Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness... - [info]visp, 2011-10-13 07:49 am UTC
Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness...
[info]sandglass
2011-10-13 04:16 am UTC (link)
*twitch* No. Just no.

She doesn't seem to keep updates on how she's doing with "maintenance." The issue with dieting isn't that you can't lose weight, but that people who lose weight are almost guaranteed to gain it back, with more weight included. That's why positive studies on diets generally end before three years, because by three years any weight is regained.

She really isn't fat positive. You can't be fat positive and demand that people be "as healthy as they can be". One, there's the constant assumption that skinny=healthy, and two, there are a fuckton of reasons not to be "healthy" (IE eat vegetables, fruits, and mostly unprocessed food and exercise regularly outside of work), and shaming people for not meeting health standards is just as bad as shaming them for body size. She also uses false facts, like the idea that being fat is associated with being unhealthy--sure, she doesn't say fatness causes it, but just bringing it up is so misleading when we're talking about being fat positive. Finally, she refuses to admit that 97%+ of all diets (even the "good" diets) fail. That's not 100%, but allowing diet culture to continue through "Well, maybe you're the 3%!" logic is not fat positive.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness...
[info]visp
2011-10-13 07:43 am UTC (link)
She doesn't seem to keep updates on how she's doing with "maintenance."

Well, she does point out that it has to be a permanent lifestyle change, not just something you do like a sacrifice to the fitness gods in order to obtain the gift of skinny.

(Reply to this)(Parent)

Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness...
[info]meagenimage
2011-10-13 12:49 pm UTC (link)
http://freethoughtblogs.com/greta/2009/08/11/open-letter-fat-positive/

You can't be fat positive and demand that people be "as healthy as they can be". One, there's the constant assumption that skinny=healthy, and two, there are a fuckton of reasons not to be "healthy" (IE eat vegetables, fruits, and mostly unprocessed food and exercise regularly outside of work), and shaming people for not meeting health standards is just as bad as shaming them for body size.

Note that a lot of this was written in response to the "health at every size" crowd, who were trying to shame *her* for her choice to attempt to lose wight. It will always come off as somewhat defensive.

She does note that the ability to eat well and excercise is not something that is equally avialble to all people, and notes that some change would have to happen at a political level (city planning, farmer's markets, better labelling, etc.).

She also uses false facts, like the idea that being fat is associated with being unhealthy--sure, she doesn't say fatness causes it, but just bringing it up is so misleading when we're talking about being fat positive.

She is opposing the position that "Obesity never causes any health problems, ever". But then she goes on to say:

There are some real problems with the ways medical researchers have studied the health effects of fatness: they tend to conflate moderate overweight-ness with serious obesity, for instance, and they often don’t control for different eating and exercise habits among people of similar sizes. And an important part of the scientific method is questioning and opposition — both from inside the scientific community, and from smart laypeople outside it.

Also, I just wanted to quote this bit...

The stubborn insistence that healthy, sane, long-term weight loss is impossible — in flat denial of evidence to the contrary — seems to concede that if fat people could lose weight, then therefore they should. It’s essentially conceding that the only valid justification for being fat is that fat people have no choice. IMO, it’s a whole lot more fat-positive to say that people have the right to decide for themselves whether the difficult, time- consuming, attention- consuming, “10 to 1 odds against success” process of weight loss is something that’s worth pursuing.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness...
[info]sandglass
2011-10-13 05:13 pm UTC (link)
There is no evidence that long-term weight loss is possible for the vast majority of people. The evidence is never long term. And we've known this for almost a hundred years.

Her entire premise, that you can lose weight safely and permanently, is wrong.

UCLA study of 31 long term diets, all had equal regain.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness... - [info]herongale, 2011-10-13 09:57 pm UTC
Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness... - [info]sandglass, 2011-10-13 11:58 pm UTC
Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness... - [info]ekaterinv, 2011-10-14 02:25 am UTC
Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness... - [info]herongale, 2011-10-14 03:14 am UTC
Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness... - [info]flowerstar, 2011-10-17 05:07 am UTC
Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness... - [info]visp, 2011-10-17 07:04 am UTC
Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness... - [info]visp, 2011-10-17 07:04 am UTC
Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness...
[info]beccastareyes
2011-10-13 02:26 pm UTC (link)
I think one thing I like to consider is that health includes mental health. If it takes too many spoons to deal with one's diet and related things*, people will do what they have to do to stay okay. Asking people to be as 'healthy as the can be' means actually addressing things like the cost of vegetables versus grains or fat-shaming.

(For me, I do like to pay attention to diet, because it helps me catch things like 'hey, if I eat fried potatoes in any quantity while out, I usually end up feeling a bit ill in an hour or two, so maybe I should remember that when ordering food' or 'I'm not hungry but want something salty, so I probably only need a single pretzel twist and not to nosh on the bag'. For other people, keeping track like this might be too stressful, especially since I show my notes to my nutritionist for discussion.)

* Let's face it, there's a lot of emotional BS about food and exercise habits, plus a lot of healthy food takes more time and money to prepare than 'junk' food. (And the money angle adds a new dimension if one is on a budget -- cheap food does usually give you a lot of calories per dollar.)

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness...
[info]franzen
2011-10-13 04:32 pm UTC (link)
Agreed.

I can't eat "real" food when working any longer; medical issues mean digestion is difficult and will lead to fainting or tremors if I eat, say, a salad brought from home, which would be my preference. The Dorioto's bags in the breakroom are free but devoid of nutrition and not something I WANT to eat since making peace with food after my ED. That leaves me with the Cliff Builders Bar in my bag. 270 calories for 1.19 USD when on sale times how many shifts per week? Soda would be cheaper but the sugar crash would do me in. That's what most of my coworkers do, though, because we only get extra money when we sell credit cards.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness... - [info]sandglass, 2011-10-13 05:32 pm UTC
Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness... - [info]franzen, 2011-10-13 09:05 pm UTC
Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness... - [info]sandglass, 2011-10-13 05:06 pm UTC
Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness... - [info]beccastareyes, 2011-10-13 05:22 pm UTC
Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness... - [info]sandglass, 2011-10-13 05:31 pm UTC
Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness... - [info]lil_miss_stfu, 2011-10-14 01:37 am UTC
Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness... - [info]rosehiptea, 2011-10-13 06:15 pm UTC
Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness... - [info]sandglass, 2011-10-13 06:26 pm UTC
Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness... - [info]tofuknight, 2011-10-13 06:54 pm UTC
Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness... - [info]rosehiptea, 2011-10-13 07:27 pm UTC
Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness... - [info]zara_zero, 2011-10-13 10:43 pm UTC
Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness... - [info]moonjaguar, 2011-10-14 06:52 pm UTC
Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness... - [info]frequentmouse, 2011-10-19 01:55 am UTC
Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness... - [info]anthologia, 2011-10-13 07:26 pm UTC
Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness... - [info]risha, 2011-10-13 11:41 pm UTC
Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness... - [info]sandglass, 2011-10-14 12:01 am UTC
Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness...
[info]anthologia
2011-10-13 07:39 pm UTC (link)
I've recently started Weight Watchers, which despite the name I tend to like because it's largely based around teaching people to eat healthier. But this has been on my mind a lot because i've gotten really GRAR about the whole weight loss obsession thing and incredibly frustrated with my sister who ahs bought into it lock, stock and barrell, eats horribly if at all, and feels the need to tell me I'm being "bad" for putting a piece of cheese on my veggie burger. Neither of us are vegan.

But the only reason I'm doing it is because I want to eat healthier, and I've had to promise myself that this is my goal, not weight loss, and will therefore probably only be weighing myself occasionally because my weight is calculated into the points system. That, and diabetes kind of gallops in my family, so you can see why this is kind of a priority.

Despite that, I still think choosing not to get into this when my doctor suggested it last year was the best choice for me, because i was in a much worse place, mentally, and probably would have slipped into disordered eating.

tl;dr WEIGHT LOSS IS NOT THE POINT OF HEALTHIER LIVING, IT IS THE OCCASIONAL SIDE EFFECT

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness... - [info]franzen, 2011-10-13 09:07 pm UTC
Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness... - [info]anthologia, 2011-10-13 11:33 pm UTC
Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness... - [info]maev_connacht, 2011-10-17 08:28 pm UTC
Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness... - [info]anthologia, 2011-10-17 10:36 pm UTC
Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness...
[info]rosehiptea
2011-10-13 05:55 am UTC (link)
Hmmm... I didn't read that much yet but I think she makes some interesting points about applying skepticism to the fat positivity movement (just like applying skepticism to anything is good.)

I'm fat and don't plan to go on a weight-loss diet any time soon, but it's an interesting blog.

(Reply to this)(Parent)

Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness...
[info]visp
2011-10-13 03:55 am UTC (link)
If we're having an OT thread, I might as well point out that our bodies evolved to function on diets of meat and berries, maybe a few grass seeds, and to fend off famine on that diet while also constantly performing manual labor. Then grain comes along and before our bodies can really evolve to work with this, all of a sudden our food options get crazy like woah, there's tons of it, all sorts of weirdness that we weren't used to using as fuel, and most of our lifestyles no longer include manual labor.

Now, if you want your body to function more or less how it's built to, you have to try and replicate the effects of an entirely extinct way of life. A lot of people just want to live their lives normally, and realize that they don't have to outrun a sabertooth tiger anymore, even if their body still kinda thinks it should.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness...
[info]sandglass
2011-10-13 04:24 am UTC (link)
Not that I'm disagreeing with the essence of your comment, but our diets involved a lot more cooked vegetables and grains than you might think and our digestive systems reflect that. I've heard scientists theorize that the big thing that caused the evolution of homo sapiens as super smart and awesomesauce was cooking food, since it made it easier to digest, so our bodies could redirect the energy no longer used for digestion into evolving massive brain power. Not saying you're wrong, just reminding everyone that digestion and diet is way more complex than we think it is.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness...
[info]visp
2011-10-13 04:50 am UTC (link)
Very true. But the last 100 years have done seen an extreme change in our foods and lifestyle that our bodies and our evolutionary instincts haven't caught up to yet. Which makes it all, as you say, very complex.

(Reply to this)(Parent)

Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness...
[info]jaythenerdkid
2011-10-13 04:52 am UTC (link)
Um...

...Increased peripheral vascular resistance? Higher lipid levels leading to arteriosclerosis? Increased pressure on your heart (due to aforementioned peripheral vascular resistance) leading to cardiomyopathy?

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness...
[info]ekaterinv
2011-10-13 05:12 am UTC (link)
Only people in the "underweight" and "obesity II" category have an increased risk of mortality compared to "normal" on the BMI chart. "Overweight" people have a decreased risk of mortality. There have been many long-term studies on this. Here are two.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19543206
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19543208

Exercise has been shown to be highly beneficial regardless of weight loss, but weight loss has not been shown to be beneficial without exercise. Of course, it is impossible to test the benefits of weight loss in the long term, because statistically speaking people can not lose weight in the long term through any known method. (Except being seriously ill.) Most (but not all) people who don't exercise tend to gain weight. Therefore there is a correlation between high weight and unfitness, but it is not a causation. Many fat people are far more fit than many thin people.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness...
[info]jaythenerdkid
2011-10-14 12:14 am UTC (link)
Interesting studies. I have them both bookmarked to read later.

Neither of them appear to address any of the points I made.

(Reply to this)(Parent)

Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness...
[info]franzen
2011-10-13 02:08 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, I had a lot of cardiomyapthy concern when I was obese. Oh wait, no, that was when I'd had an eating disorder for nine years and was bradycardiac! And my insurance didn't cover the tests because anorexia isn't a physical illness!

No one checked my cholesterol when I was fat because I was healthy. They sure as hell did when I was underweight.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness...
[info]jaythenerdkid
2011-10-14 12:19 am UTC (link)
Sorry, I didn't realise that we were sharing anecdotal evidence. Would you like me to pull up my case notes on every overweight and obese patient I've seen over the last five years with serious co-morbidities related to their weight?

(Not that they would invalidate your anecdotal evidence - but in the same way, your anecdotal evidence does not invalidate mine.)

Funny thing is, I didn't even say that all people with "overweight" BMIs were unhealthy - rather, I was pointing out that there are quantifiable conditions associated with an unhealthily high body weight. It is a biological fact that the heavier you are, the harder your heart will have to work in order to perfuse your entire body, and that your peripheral vascular resistance will be higher. Being overweight may not be associated with increased morbidity or mortality, but those other things sure are.

(Reply to this)(Parent)

Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness...
[info]sandglass
2011-10-13 05:08 pm UTC (link)
There hasn't been much research into if those are "caused" by fatness or a history of dieting and food restriction, which just about any fat person also has.

There's also no safe, lasting way to lose weight. Almost all people have their diets fail.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness...
[info]jaythenerdkid
2011-10-14 12:23 am UTC (link)
Please point to the place where I said that all people with "overweight" BMIs needed to lose weight, or indeed that this would make them healthier?

I was merely pointing out that there are, in fact, quantifiable conditions associated with an unhealthily high body weight.

To be honest, I don't care about anyone's body image issues. I think fatphobia and all that nonsense is stupid. I'm far more interested in how these patients present to me, and the comorbidities I have to deal with when they do.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness... - [info]frequentmouse, 2011-10-19 02:04 am UTC
Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness... - [info]jaythenerdkid, 2011-10-19 02:10 am UTC
Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness... - [info]frequentmouse, 2011-10-19 04:05 am UTC
Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness... - [info]jaythenerdkid, 2011-10-19 05:22 am UTC
Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness... - [info]visp, 2011-10-19 06:57 am UTC

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