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Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness...

sandglass
2011-10-13 04:16 am UTC (link)

*twitch* No. Just no.

She doesn't seem to keep updates on how she's doing with "maintenance." The issue with dieting isn't that you can't lose weight, but that people who lose weight are almost guaranteed to gain it back, with more weight included. That's why positive studies on diets generally end before three years, because by three years any weight is regained.

She really isn't fat positive. You can't be fat positive and demand that people be "as healthy as they can be". One, there's the constant assumption that skinny=healthy, and two, there are a fuckton of reasons not to be "healthy" (IE eat vegetables, fruits, and mostly unprocessed food and exercise regularly outside of work), and shaming people for not meeting health standards is just as bad as shaming them for body size. She also uses false facts, like the idea that being fat is associated with being unhealthy--sure, she doesn't say fatness causes it, but just bringing it up is so misleading when we're talking about being fat positive. Finally, she refuses to admit that 97%+ of all diets (even the "good" diets) fail. That's not 100%, but allowing diet culture to continue through "Well, maybe you're the 3%!" logic is not fat positive.

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	Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness... visp 2011-10-13 07:43 am UTC (link)
	She doesn't seem to keep updates on how she's doing with "maintenance." Well, she does point out that it has to be a permanent lifestyle change, not just something you do like a sacrifice to the fitness gods in order to obtain the gift of skinny. (Reply to this)(Parent)

Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness...

meagenimage
2011-10-13 12:49 pm UTC (link)

http://freethoughtblogs.com/greta/2009/08/11/open-letter-fat-positive/

You can't be fat positive and demand that people be "as healthy as they can be". One, there's the constant assumption that skinny=healthy, and two, there are a fuckton of reasons not to be "healthy" (IE eat vegetables, fruits, and mostly unprocessed food and exercise regularly outside of work), and shaming people for not meeting health standards is just as bad as shaming them for body size.

Note that a lot of this was written in response to the "health at every size" crowd, who were trying to shame *her* for her choice to attempt to lose wight. It will always come off as somewhat defensive.

She does note that the ability to eat well and excercise is not something that is equally avialble to all people, and notes that some change would have to happen at a political level (city planning, farmer's markets, better labelling, etc.).

She also uses false facts, like the idea that being fat is associated with being unhealthy--sure, she doesn't say fatness causes it, but just bringing it up is so misleading when we're talking about being fat positive.

She is opposing the position that "Obesity never causes any health problems, ever". But then she goes on to say:

There are some real problems with the ways medical researchers have studied the health effects of fatness: they tend to conflate moderate overweight-ness with serious obesity, for instance, and they often don’t control for different eating and exercise habits among people of similar sizes. And an important part of the scientific method is questioning and opposition — both from inside the scientific community, and from smart laypeople outside it.

Also, I just wanted to quote this bit...

The stubborn insistence that healthy, sane, long-term weight loss is impossible — in flat denial of evidence to the contrary — seems to concede that if fat people could lose weight, then therefore they should. It’s essentially conceding that the only valid justification for being fat is that fat people have no choice. IMO, it’s a whole lot more fat-positive to say that people have the right to decide for themselves whether the difficult, time- consuming, attention- consuming, “10 to 1 odds against success” process of weight loss is something that’s worth pursuing.

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	Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness... sandglass 2011-10-13 05:13 pm UTC (link)
	There is no evidence that long-term weight loss is possible for the vast majority of people. The evidence is never long term. And we've known this for almost a hundred years. Her entire premise, that you can lose weight safely and permanently, is wrong. UCLA study of 31 long term diets, all had equal regain. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness...

herongale
2011-10-13 09:57 pm UTC (link)

Of course people can lose weight safely and permanently. It's just not usually by dieting.

For one thing, people who set realistic goals ("I want to lose 15-20 lbs") as opposed to unrealistic ones ("I want to lose 100+ lbs") are far more likely to achieve success. It also really helps if they set a realistic time scale ("over the next year or so" vs "in the next two weeks").

Most of the significant and permanet weight loss, however, probably isn't done with the goal of losing weight at all. My brother is a good example of this- in high school he was considered chunky, even fat. When he tried to diet he just gained more weight, exactly as you've said. But once he set for himself a goal that gave him pleasue and that he really wanted to work for ("I want to be strong and lift heavy weights") the pounds did come off, and it's been over ten years since then. He'll never be what anyone would call thin, but he is extremely fit, and most importantly, is comfortable and happy in his body.

I mostly agree with your overall premise, but to say that it is wrong to say that people can lose weight both safely and permanently is tantamount to saying it's impossible. It's not impossible at all. But it rarely (if ever) is achieved by what most people think of when they hear the word "dieting"= strict calorie restriction and/or limited food choices.

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Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness...

sandglass
2011-10-13 11:58 pm UTC (link)

There is zero evidence that long term, healthy weight loss is possible for most people. Sure, it works for some, but the whole, "Oh, those other people are just doing it wrong" is practically victim blaming and 100% bullshit. Weight loss fail because bodies have a set weight point they want to stay at, and for most people the only way to lose weight is to bully your body into unhealthiness.

Seriously, why is that so hard? Why does everyone cling to anecdata when there is plenty of evidence otherwise? Good for your brother, he's in the 3% of people who do lose weight.

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Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness...

ekaterinv
2011-10-14 02:25 am UTC (link)

Why does everyone cling to anecdata when there is plenty of evidence otherwise?

We do it about sex, gender, skin color, nationality, language, hair color, clothing, music, weather patterns... everything. It was likely good for survival when we told Igg she shouldn't try to keep a sabertooth tiger as a pet because this one time a sabertooth tiger ate our cousin Ogg, but in the modern world, not so good. And everyone does do it; gods know I catch myself doing it a lot.

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Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness...

herongale
2011-10-14 03:14 am UTC (link)

Because people want to live in hope? Not everyone who wishes to lose weight has their desires dictated to them by a fat-shaming society.

But let's just set that aside for a moment. I brought out the anecdotal information because it appropriately illustrates what I think is a functional approach for people who wish to lose weight. That doesn't mean I'm not aware of the data that's out there, including the limitations on data.

You seem to be suggesting that for the vast majority of people, nothing works at all. But hell, even in the article you yourself site (the one from the scientificamerican website), it says that "regular exercise and moderate eating" DO work for long-term weight loss and maintenance.

So let me just be clear. What exactly are the conclusions you draw from the data you've read about? That it's hopeless for 97% to lose weight, and so they shouldn't even try-- not even in terms of "regular exercise and moderate eating?" And what do you think of people who want to lose weight-- do you think everyone who wants to lose weight is deluded and a victim of a fat-shaming culture? Do you think it's impossible for someone to have a legitimate reason to want to lose weight?

I'm sincerely asking you these things, because I seriously want to know. I know exactly how difficult it is for people to lose weight, and I would never blame anyone for not achieving success in their endeavors. Medical science is such that even when weight causes problems (e.g., strain on joints), there are solutions to those problems that don't require weight loss (e.g., pain management, physical therapy, and total joint replacement). Whether or not diabetes or hypertension are related to obesity, it doesn't have to especially matter, because blood pressure medications and anti-hyperglycemic agents exist. People who don't want to lose weight shouldn't feel pressured to do so, not to any degree. But is there something wrong with an individual wanting to lose weight for personal reasons that are not related to shame or self-hatred?

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Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness... -

flowerstar, 2011-10-17 05:07 am UTC

Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness... -

visp, 2011-10-17 07:04 am UTC

Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness... -

visp, 2011-10-17 07:04 am UTC

Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness...

beccastareyes
2011-10-13 02:26 pm UTC (link)

I think one thing I like to consider is that health includes mental health. If it takes too many spoons to deal with one's diet and related things*, people will do what they have to do to stay okay. Asking people to be as 'healthy as the can be' means actually addressing things like the cost of vegetables versus grains or fat-shaming.

(For me, I do like to pay attention to diet, because it helps me catch things like 'hey, if I eat fried potatoes in any quantity while out, I usually end up feeling a bit ill in an hour or two, so maybe I should remember that when ordering food' or 'I'm not hungry but want something salty, so I probably only need a single pretzel twist and not to nosh on the bag'. For other people, keeping track like this might be too stressful, especially since I show my notes to my nutritionist for discussion.)

* Let's face it, there's a lot of emotional BS about food and exercise habits, plus a lot of healthy food takes more time and money to prepare than 'junk' food. (And the money angle adds a new dimension if one is on a budget -- cheap food does usually give you a lot of calories per dollar.)

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Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness...

franzen
2011-10-13 04:32 pm UTC (link)

Agreed.

I can't eat "real" food when working any longer; medical issues mean digestion is difficult and will lead to fainting or tremors if I eat, say, a salad brought from home, which would be my preference. The Dorioto's bags in the breakroom are free but devoid of nutrition and not something I WANT to eat since making peace with food after my ED. That leaves me with the Cliff Builders Bar in my bag. 270 calories for 1.19 USD when on sale times how many shifts per week? Soda would be cheaper but the sugar crash would do me in. That's what most of my coworkers do, though, because we only get extra money when we sell credit cards.

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	Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness... sandglass 2011-10-13 05:32 pm UTC (link)
	Have you looked into ordering them in bulk? That might be a decent way to work the price down. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness... franzen 2011-10-13 09:05 pm UTC (link)
	I plan to this week. This is all fairly recent and my doctor thinks I should get a lawyer and go for SSDI, so yeah. (Reply to this)(Parent)

Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness...

sandglass
2011-10-13 05:06 pm UTC (link)

This.

One of the things that really rankled me reading some of what she wrote was that not only did she almost obsessively count calories, but that she started to base her entire life around her diet. Don't get me wrong, it's one thing to get healthy, which can involve lots of life changes, it's another to be like, "I have to be really careful about going to parties because oh god, if I fuck up my ~~diet~~ health even one day!"

When I was learning Health At Every Size (HAES) and on Wellbutrin, which pretty much kills the body's hunger drives and cravings, I was told I could pay careful attention to how I feel after I eat and base my decisions on that. HAES is all about listening to your body's cues for eating, IE if you're hungry then eat, if you crave ice cream look into if you're getting enough calcium in your diet (or just have some fucking ice cream because you're a fucking adult), etc. It's so helpful and so much healthier than when I tried to "Diet" (IE eat food that was pre-approved, in small amounts, and ignore cravings because my body is supposedly evil and a moron), because it turns out your body is fantastically smart at guiding you to the right food.

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Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness...

beccastareyes
2011-10-13 05:22 pm UTC (link)

If it works for her, fine, but that way would involve me throwing up my hands within a week. Even something slightly looser but still involving a lot of math like Weight Watchers was hard to stick to*. That's just too much stress for most people to manage. Plus, the whole 'grad student' thing means I really can't plan my life around meals -- at best, I can leave work a bit early on days I actually have to cook dinner rather than reheat leftovers.

* Hell, keeping records of what I eat without descriptions of how much is hard.

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Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness...

sandglass
2011-10-13 05:31 pm UTC (link)

I think that's how dieting is for most people. It's so hard to "count calories" since they're essentially meaningless (as I said elsewhere, eating a cooked carrot is really different than a raw one, even though you don't change the "calorie" content and the nutrition rating is treated the same). That's why people on diets have to get so obsessive, because there's no other option. There's also the issue of shame and self-shame and trying to figure out why diets fail: People blame the dieters for deviating, so if you aren't obsessive and stay to it 100% it's your fault for failing, and that one party is the reason why you gained your weight back!

Or you could just eat what you want, when you want, and trust that your body is a well-honed organism designed to keep you alive and healthy for as long as possible. Which is surprisingly easy and, although only starting to be studied, is having great results.

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Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness... -

lil_miss_stfu, 2011-10-14 01:37 am UTC

	Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness... rosehiptea 2011-10-13 06:15 pm UTC (link)
	Wellbutrin, which pretty much kills the body's hunger drives and cravings Uh, maybe for some people. I continue to be hungry, crave tons of junk food, and gain weight while on Wellbutrin. I'll admit that junk food for me is partly a comfort thing. Also that I take other meds. (Or I do when I'm on my meds, which in another story.) (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness... sandglass 2011-10-13 06:26 pm UTC (link)
	Huh. Most people I've heard have issues with completely forgetting to eat for days even, while on it. It's even given as a stop smoking aid, since it's so good at killing cravings. But no one has the same reactions to medication. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness... -

tofuknight, 2011-10-13 06:54 pm UTC

Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness... -

rosehiptea, 2011-10-13 07:27 pm UTC

Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness... -

zara_zero, 2011-10-13 10:43 pm UTC

Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness... -

moonjaguar, 2011-10-14 06:52 pm UTC

Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness... -

frequentmouse, 2011-10-19 01:55 am UTC

	Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness... anthologia 2011-10-13 07:26 pm UTC (link)
	This. I'm on Wellbutrin, and this has done nothing like killing my appetite. (Reply to this)(Parent)

Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness...

risha
2011-10-13 11:41 pm UTC (link)

I've gained a fair amount of weight since going up in dose, but it's because it kills my appetite. I seem to be really sensitive to minor fluctuations in blood sugar, so I know that I need to eat in the morning or I'll be sort of sick by 10am and really nauseous by noon. The same is true for dinner. But if I'm not hungry, I can't tell when I'm done eating, so it's by guesswork.

On the upside, I have stopped losing years of my life from my memory, and can remember what I did yesterday and that I need cat food. Huge win. I was seriously starting to worry about early onset Alzheimer's.

(Before any unnecessary well meant commentary: yes, I'm fat, but I'm not diabetic, pre-diabetic, or anything like it. My body worked the same exact way when I was a thin child. My doctors diligently test me every year, and I persist in annoying them by being metabolically perfect for a woman my age except for a slightly higher then they like - but still well within the normal range - bad cholesterol.)

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	Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness... sandglass 2011-10-14 12:01 am UTC (link)
	Yeah, when I went on Wellbutrin I made sure to eat every few hours, and would occasionally end up sick from forgetting to eat anyway and eat like a bag of chocolate or a jar of Nutella to get calories in me. Psych meds are so much fun! (Reply to this)(Parent)

Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness...

anthologia
2011-10-13 07:39 pm UTC (link)

I've recently started Weight Watchers, which despite the name I tend to like because it's largely based around teaching people to eat healthier. But this has been on my mind a lot because i've gotten really GRAR about the whole weight loss obsession thing and incredibly frustrated with my sister who ahs bought into it lock, stock and barrell, eats horribly if at all, and feels the need to tell me I'm being "bad" for putting a piece of cheese on my veggie burger. Neither of us are vegan.

But the only reason I'm doing it is because I want to eat healthier, and I've had to promise myself that this is my goal, not weight loss, and will therefore probably only be weighing myself occasionally because my weight is calculated into the points system. That, and diabetes kind of gallops in my family, so you can see why this is kind of a priority.

Despite that, I still think choosing not to get into this when my doctor suggested it last year was the best choice for me, because i was in a much worse place, mentally, and probably would have slipped into disordered eating.

tl;dr WEIGHT LOSS IS NOT THE POINT OF HEALTHIER LIVING, IT IS THE OCCASIONAL SIDE EFFECT

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	Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness... franzen 2011-10-13 09:07 pm UTC (link)
	You're awesome. One change at a time. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness... anthologia 2011-10-13 11:33 pm UTC (link)
	♥! (Reply to this)(Parent)

Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness...

maev_connacht
2011-10-17 08:28 pm UTC (link)

I was doing WW for a while at the beginning of the year, but after watching a friend go CrazyOverboardMental to the point where I am now scared for her health on their program and getting kind of frustrated in general with their focus on fake sugars, I quit a few months ago. I'm not big, just a healthy average size, but I'm body dysmorphic and I felt like WW was kind of feeding into that and making me worse. There are some good things about it, but I was ultimately uncomfortable with how it kind of insinuated when I wanted to lose, say, 5-10 pounds that I should probably lose about 20. (BTW, I shouldn't. I've been that weight before and my face starts to get all skeletal and unpleasant.)

So long story short, best of luck, but try to pick and choose which parts you pay attention to!

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Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness...

anthologia
2011-10-17 10:36 pm UTC (link)

Thanks. ♥ I'm trying to adhere to it semi-loosely (I've already made a few adjustments to it that work better for me, like undercounting milk because it is delicious, I am supposed to be having three cups a day, and no one is going to be standing over my grave wailing IF ONLY SHE DIDN'T DRINK SO MUCH MILK!). BUT UM YEAH. I am hoping it works out, because I do have genuine reasons to keep an eye on how I eat, but I'm also trying to keep an eye on how it makes me feel, mentally? If that makes sense.

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