Entry tags:

defensiveness ahoy, food, it's not easy wanking green, let them eat cake, otf_wank's thoughts on weight

The Serious Side of Salad
Once upon a time, someone in facebook posted a "Why Geeks Make Better Boyfriends" list. Britney St. Patience felt the need to point out its inaccuracies. She prefaces it with "Sure there are geek guys out there who are great partners. But being a geek does not guarantee that a guy will be a great boyfriend."

It's a pretty standard 'Nice Guy' deconstruction.

The main highlights are:

Myth #3: Geeks are low maintenance
Supposedly geek guys make great boyfriends because they can subsist on pizza, Mt Dew, and your affection. Just wait until you meet one who will ONLY eat pizza and maybe 3-4 other foods, like some sort of overgrown five year old. It took me nearly a decade to get my computer programmer ex husband to eat salad. My Star Wars obsessed ex boyfriend could not be taken to nice restaurants because he refused to wear anything except ripped jeans and nerdy tees and would not eat anything he could not pronounce. LOW MAINTENANCE MY ASS.

and

Myth #6: Geeks appreciate women
This one is, by far, my favorite geek guy myth. The myth of the guy who spent all of high school playing D&D but secretly wanting someone to love and when he finally gets a girl he imprints on her and covers her in puppy-like devotion. OMG WHERE DO PEOPLE GET THIS SHIT? You know what really happens when guys don't get laid in high school or college and spend all their time reading coming books and filling their spank banks with Buffy the Vampire Slayer fanfic? They fill their little nerd brains with unrealistic expectations, waiting around for what one of my gamer friends calls a "magical pixie girl". An unattainably hot woman, who will love the nerd boy not in spite of his nerdiness but because of it and somehow his life will be transformed by her love. And he shall get a job. And he shall move out of his parents basement. And he shall cease to be whatever it is he dislikes about himself because the magical lady doth love him. But woe to any girl who does not live up to his fantasy. She will be treated with the same regard as yesterday's Mt Dew cans.

So, a little harsh, but all in all not a matter for anger, right? Wrong!

It gets posted to Metaquotes, and it starts to get weird.

First, the appetizer of rebuttals that only confirm the post.

The myth of the guy who spent all of high school playing D&D but secretly wanting someone to love and when he finally gets a girl he imprints on her and covers her in puppy-like devotion. OMG WHERE DO PEOPLE GET THIS SHIT?"

They get it from reality. That described me perfectly. It happened. It still happens. She completely ripped out my heart and shit in the hole eventually, and I got over this pattern... but it happens. That's where people get the idea.

The OP is demanding, high maintenance, dissatisfied with all the men out there... and yet continues to put herself into relationships with people SHE DOESN'T LIKE in some misguided attempt to make them into something she does like.

Of course it doesn't work, millions of people can tell you that (and probably did), and now she's bitter as a result of her mistakes, and is shifting the blame onto a large and diverse demographic that, in the aggregate, does NOT actually fit all the stereotypes she is perpetuating about them.

But then Candidgamera shows up and he Does. Not. Like. Salad.

If the girl I was dating was bizarrely fixated on me eating a salad, it wouldn't take me ten years to dump her sorry ass.

Making your husband eat a salad makes you a controlling harpy.

What follows is an extended debate over whether asking your spouse to eat salad is controlling, an act of deepest love for your dearest one, or something in between. Over salad.

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Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness...

meagenimage
2011-10-13 12:49 pm UTC (link)

http://freethoughtblogs.com/greta/2009/08/11/open-letter-fat-positive/

You can't be fat positive and demand that people be "as healthy as they can be". One, there's the constant assumption that skinny=healthy, and two, there are a fuckton of reasons not to be "healthy" (IE eat vegetables, fruits, and mostly unprocessed food and exercise regularly outside of work), and shaming people for not meeting health standards is just as bad as shaming them for body size.

Note that a lot of this was written in response to the "health at every size" crowd, who were trying to shame *her* for her choice to attempt to lose wight. It will always come off as somewhat defensive.

She does note that the ability to eat well and excercise is not something that is equally avialble to all people, and notes that some change would have to happen at a political level (city planning, farmer's markets, better labelling, etc.).

She also uses false facts, like the idea that being fat is associated with being unhealthy--sure, she doesn't say fatness causes it, but just bringing it up is so misleading when we're talking about being fat positive.

She is opposing the position that "Obesity never causes any health problems, ever". But then she goes on to say:

There are some real problems with the ways medical researchers have studied the health effects of fatness: they tend to conflate moderate overweight-ness with serious obesity, for instance, and they often don’t control for different eating and exercise habits among people of similar sizes. And an important part of the scientific method is questioning and opposition — both from inside the scientific community, and from smart laypeople outside it.

Also, I just wanted to quote this bit...

The stubborn insistence that healthy, sane, long-term weight loss is impossible — in flat denial of evidence to the contrary — seems to concede that if fat people could lose weight, then therefore they should. It’s essentially conceding that the only valid justification for being fat is that fat people have no choice. IMO, it’s a whole lot more fat-positive to say that people have the right to decide for themselves whether the difficult, time- consuming, attention- consuming, “10 to 1 odds against success” process of weight loss is something that’s worth pursuing.

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	Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness... sandglass 2011-10-13 05:13 pm UTC (link)
	There is no evidence that long-term weight loss is possible for the vast majority of people. The evidence is never long term. And we've known this for almost a hundred years. Her entire premise, that you can lose weight safely and permanently, is wrong. UCLA study of 31 long term diets, all had equal regain. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness...

herongale
2011-10-13 09:57 pm UTC (link)

Of course people can lose weight safely and permanently. It's just not usually by dieting.

For one thing, people who set realistic goals ("I want to lose 15-20 lbs") as opposed to unrealistic ones ("I want to lose 100+ lbs") are far more likely to achieve success. It also really helps if they set a realistic time scale ("over the next year or so" vs "in the next two weeks").

Most of the significant and permanet weight loss, however, probably isn't done with the goal of losing weight at all. My brother is a good example of this- in high school he was considered chunky, even fat. When he tried to diet he just gained more weight, exactly as you've said. But once he set for himself a goal that gave him pleasue and that he really wanted to work for ("I want to be strong and lift heavy weights") the pounds did come off, and it's been over ten years since then. He'll never be what anyone would call thin, but he is extremely fit, and most importantly, is comfortable and happy in his body.

I mostly agree with your overall premise, but to say that it is wrong to say that people can lose weight both safely and permanently is tantamount to saying it's impossible. It's not impossible at all. But it rarely (if ever) is achieved by what most people think of when they hear the word "dieting"= strict calorie restriction and/or limited food choices.

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Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness...

sandglass
2011-10-13 11:58 pm UTC (link)

There is zero evidence that long term, healthy weight loss is possible for most people. Sure, it works for some, but the whole, "Oh, those other people are just doing it wrong" is practically victim blaming and 100% bullshit. Weight loss fail because bodies have a set weight point they want to stay at, and for most people the only way to lose weight is to bully your body into unhealthiness.

Seriously, why is that so hard? Why does everyone cling to anecdata when there is plenty of evidence otherwise? Good for your brother, he's in the 3% of people who do lose weight.

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Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness...

ekaterinv
2011-10-14 02:25 am UTC (link)

Why does everyone cling to anecdata when there is plenty of evidence otherwise?

We do it about sex, gender, skin color, nationality, language, hair color, clothing, music, weather patterns... everything. It was likely good for survival when we told Igg she shouldn't try to keep a sabertooth tiger as a pet because this one time a sabertooth tiger ate our cousin Ogg, but in the modern world, not so good. And everyone does do it; gods know I catch myself doing it a lot.

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Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness...

herongale
2011-10-14 03:14 am UTC (link)

Because people want to live in hope? Not everyone who wishes to lose weight has their desires dictated to them by a fat-shaming society.

But let's just set that aside for a moment. I brought out the anecdotal information because it appropriately illustrates what I think is a functional approach for people who wish to lose weight. That doesn't mean I'm not aware of the data that's out there, including the limitations on data.

You seem to be suggesting that for the vast majority of people, nothing works at all. But hell, even in the article you yourself site (the one from the scientificamerican website), it says that "regular exercise and moderate eating" DO work for long-term weight loss and maintenance.

So let me just be clear. What exactly are the conclusions you draw from the data you've read about? That it's hopeless for 97% to lose weight, and so they shouldn't even try-- not even in terms of "regular exercise and moderate eating?" And what do you think of people who want to lose weight-- do you think everyone who wants to lose weight is deluded and a victim of a fat-shaming culture? Do you think it's impossible for someone to have a legitimate reason to want to lose weight?

I'm sincerely asking you these things, because I seriously want to know. I know exactly how difficult it is for people to lose weight, and I would never blame anyone for not achieving success in their endeavors. Medical science is such that even when weight causes problems (e.g., strain on joints), there are solutions to those problems that don't require weight loss (e.g., pain management, physical therapy, and total joint replacement). Whether or not diabetes or hypertension are related to obesity, it doesn't have to especially matter, because blood pressure medications and anti-hyperglycemic agents exist. People who don't want to lose weight shouldn't feel pressured to do so, not to any degree. But is there something wrong with an individual wanting to lose weight for personal reasons that are not related to shame or self-hatred?

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Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness...

flowerstar
2011-10-17 05:07 am UTC (link)

I know I'm late to the party and all (blame work for keeping me off JF for the whole week ...), but I just wanted to thank you for this comment. Reading this whole thread has been upsetting me a lot, as someone who is just recovering from an eating disorder and finally able to shed the weight that made me suffer both physically and mentally.

So, thank you for writing this. And I find it very interesting that you never got an answer ...

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	Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness... visp 2011-10-17 07:04 am UTC (link)
	Well, it was getting very unfunny business. (Reply to this)(Parent)

Re: Sorry for getting all unfunnybusiness...

visp
2011-10-17 07:04 am UTC (link)

A good study for successful weight loss are ex-pats. I would see it all the time in Japan. People would come over, start eating different food (more brown rice, tofu and veggies) because all the old foods they ate weren't available. The internet wasn't as developed and you couldn't get all your shows online, so unless you wanted to watch Japanese TV, you had to find something else to do. They would join sports clubs like tennis or squash (because when you don't speak the language fluently, a sport is the best thing, because you don't need much talking to participate.) Sure enough, all that excess weight just melts off, and stays off so long as they live in that country and continue that lifestyle. When they go home after 3 to 20 years, if they fall back into their old eating and living habits, they fall back into the figure they had last time they ate and lived like that.

Saying that "weight loss = better eating + more exercise" is like saying "having more money = put more into your bank account + take out less." Technically completely true, but missing the bigger problem of how are you going to do these things. If your lifestyle isn't active, that's a very hard habit to break. If you've spent the last 30 years eating one way, changing that is going to be very hard. Without something like going to another country giving you a complete change in the lifestyle, it's going to be very tempting to fall back into old habits. People often get the concepts of the simple "eat less and exercise" math mixed up with the "fitness is a comprehensive lifestyle, and people don't change lifestyles easily" concept. Plus, the backlash of "there's nothing morally wrong with being fat, losing weight is very difficult for some, why do you people have to try and verbally abuse and humiliate us at every turn," encourages the "it's not a choice, so stop abusing us about it" mentality.

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