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	kyuuketsukirui 2004-04-08 12:24 am UTC (link)
	Wow, that got a lot of comments in a hurry. (Reply to this)

	kijikun 2004-04-08 12:53 am UTC (link)
	I'm not touching this one with a 12 foot pole. (Reply to this)

	livii 2004-04-08 01:45 am UTC (link)
	That's absolutely ridiculous. How any man could think that having sex with someone who was sleeping is okay is just beyond me. It's not the 50s anymore, kids - rape is rape, married or not... Now _hellion is just batshit insane, btw. Either that or so sarcastic I can't quite divine his intentions. (Reply to this)(Thread)

kerikeri
2004-04-08 03:30 am UTC (link)

Now _hellion is just batshit insane, btw. Either that or so sarcastic I can't quite divine his intentions.

The former, I think. I've dealt with him before. He has a fondness for way oversharing about the state of his genitalia, and once seriously put forth the theory that any man who is attracted to any woman who's at all overweight is a mentally imbalanced fetishist, because "normal", "healthy" people are only attracted to thin women. *headdesks*

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	janegraddell 2004-04-08 05:49 pm UTC (link)
	And that makes me appreciate this smackdown from visp even more: Yeah, we aren't your shrink, honey - save the whiny vitrol for someone who is getting paid to at least pretend they care about your pathetic misogyny. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	musette 2004-04-08 10:42 pm UTC (link)
	boggles Um yes, bitch please. And die, quickly. And painfully. Urgh, fucking people, jesus. (Reply to this)(Parent)

(Anonymous)
2005-10-09 10:57 am UTC (link)

I was trolling. In that particular thread I was inspired by the Tom Leykis radio show...anyone has heard the show would have spotted by blatant rip off of his philosophy in .02 seconds.

The difference between what I was doing and what he does is that guy gets millions of dollars for pissing off fat people and/or reasonable people whereas I'm simply afforded a few moments of childish and greedy glee without making any money in the process.

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	smo 2004-04-08 01:47 am UTC (link)
	Okay, first of all, I really, REALLY hope that letter was an urban legend/made up/whatever, because if it's true, that's about 10,000 different kinds of wrong. He tries to get out of it by claiming he was ~~being an idiot~~ trying to provoke people. Ah, the Shit Disturber Defense. The last resort of the loudmouth with nothing of substance to say. (Reply to this)(Thread)

	schuldig 2004-04-08 02:41 pm UTC (link)
	It's addressed a generic Agony Aunt, and no URL or reference is given. I'm assuming it's made-up. But I know from past experience that men think they can get away with an awful lot when you're asleep, and it's so damn creepy because you'll never know what exactly it was that they got away with. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	smo 2004-04-08 02:46 pm UTC (link)
	Hence, the whole roofie bit. Yucko. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	sagralisse 2004-04-08 03:46 pm UTC (link)
	... it's so damn creepy because you'll never know what exactly it was that they got away with. I don't think it'd take that much imagination. (Reply to this)(Parent)

crickets
2004-04-08 03:16 am UTC (link)

Double the creepy, double the dumb:

I’ve found I can have sex with her while she’s asleep.

If she's that tired and you're still rarin' to go, you must be one lazy asshole. Plus, it doesn't say much for your skills as a lover that she sleeps through it.

My only worry is whether she could become pregnant this way

Oh, because she's asleep, it 'doesn't count'? Sure bud, your sperm will take one look around and say to one another, "Whoa. Guys, we struck out. She's asleep so we can't DO anything with the egg. Damn!"

*grumble* I'm also hoping like hell this is urban legend.

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	squib 2004-04-08 03:52 am UTC (link)
	This may be, but the rape the wife while she's asleep isn't. Just tripped across something about that very subject in Psychology of Women Quarterly. (Gotta love when work dovetails with wank!) (Reply to this)(Parent)

	lurker32 2004-04-08 04:26 am UTC (link)
	o_o Helloooooooo assholes! (Reply to this)

	big_bad_wolf 2004-04-08 01:10 pm UTC (link)
	1991/1992 the Bill making Martial Rape illegal was passed in the UK. Just, you know, so we all know. (Reply to this)(Thread)

	smo 2004-04-08 02:46 pm UTC (link)
	Martial Rape No Rape Kwon Do in the UK, eh? ducks shoe (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	Re: big_bad_wolf 2004-04-08 03:02 pm UTC (link)
	cracks up Oh, tyops. You really do make things funnier. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	smo 2004-04-08 04:08 pm UTC (link)
	Yes, tehy are teh funneh. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	Re: big_bad_wolf 2004-04-09 03:15 pm UTC (link)
	snggiesr. ...damn, it's hard to make deliberate typos. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	smo 2004-04-09 07:08 pm UTC (link)
	Yes. It makes my inner English major cry. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	Re: big_bad_wolf 2004-04-10 10:39 am UTC (link)
	pets your inner English Major So cute! (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	smo 2004-04-12 03:47 pm UTC (link)
	Inner English major: Blasts and fogs upon ye! I be not cute, nor be I adorable, but PH34RSUM!!!11! Outer English major: Er.. she didn't mean that, your honor. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	Re: big_bad_wolf 2004-04-12 06:07 pm UTC (link)
	Ah, but rampaging and psychotic IS cute. pets (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	smo 2004-04-12 06:30 pm UTC (link)
	I'll tell Sanzo that next time I see him. ;) (Reply to this)(Parent)

	Women and Sex deoridhe 2004-04-08 01:36 pm UTC (link)
	Taking care of three kids and this guy wonders why she doesn't want to have sex? eyes boggle It never ceases to amaze me how some people seem to assume that exhaustion is the perfect prelude to sex. (Reply to this)(Thread)

	Re: Women and Sex cpip 2004-04-08 07:47 pm UTC (link)
	I knew a girl who swore she got hornier the more tired she got. If she stayed up for 24 hours straight all she could think about was sex. Never understood that. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	sagralisse 2004-04-08 03:51 pm UTC (link)
	Maybe I'm weird, but that'd be kind of fun actually. Except for the lack of birth control. (Reply to this)

	sagralisse 2004-04-08 04:07 pm UTC (link)
	I'm not sure why the "she should have put out" guy is a troll when the "castration" people aren't. The ones that were hating on the couple for having three kids at a young age were annoying too. (Reply to this)(Thread)

(Anonymous)
2004-04-08 05:25 pm UTC (link)

I'm not sure why the "she should have put out" guy is a troll when the "castration" people aren't.

I had this long reply typed out, then I realized it actually comes down to a fairly simple concept:

Actions against the abusive party (castrating the guy raping his wife) are "justified", while those suggesting that the abused party should just shut up and take it ("put out" for her husband) are "outrageous."

Although I also think that what would happen IRL also plays a role. The man would never actually be castrated, but many women have been cowed into "putting out" because it's their "duty".

I hope that makes some sort of sense o.o

Disclaimer: I am in no way defending the "castration" sentiment, just trying to offer some insight into why it may have been treated differently.

-ADR

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sagralisse
2004-04-08 07:09 pm UTC (link)

Okay, there's a whole thing about the "abused party" that isn't making sense to me. We don't have enough information to know whether she's abused or not, because we don't know what she thinks about it.

In abusive relationships, sex stops being about pleasure and bonding and starts being about power. It'd be pretty abusive to extract a promise from someone not to have sex with anyone else, and then categorically refuse to have sex with him yourself... so yeah, in all fairness there's some sort of sexual "duty" associated with marriage. If you aren't fair about it, then your marriage is probably going to fail.

It becomes abuse when the sex itself becomes the proof that one parner can coerce the other into doing whatever he/she wants. You could just as well abuse your spouse by making them eat the kind of food you want all the time, or making them wear the kind of clothes you want, or talk only to the people you want them to talk to. Sex tends to have a bigger impact because it's so personal.

The simple act of having sex when you aren't particularly in the mood for it is NOT a big deal. Men and women in loving relationships do that all the time, as a willing accomodation to their partners. If you'd prefer to have sex once a week, and your husband would prefer twice (or vice versa), then it's up to the two of you to work it out between yourselves. Assuming that you really do love your partner and want to maintain a happy relationship, you'll come to some sort of compromise. Don't let your angry feminist friends convince you that it must be once a week or you're being abused OMG!!!

Assuming for a moment that the letter is real, the guy is clearly in the wrong for being a sneak. He knows he's in the wrong or he wouldn't have written the letter. I think it'd be up to his wife to decide how wrong he is -- whether she considers it to be abuse, the act of a man who is too dorky for words or whether she okay with the sex as long as it requires no effort on her part.

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iczer6
2004-04-09 05:53 am UTC (link)

It'd be pretty abusive to extract a promise from someone not to have sex with anyone else, and then categorically refuse to have sex with him yourself... so yeah, in all fairness there's some sort of sexual "duty" associated with marriage. If you aren't fair about it, then your marriage is probably going to fail.

I'm glad you said that. I do wonder why people seem so freaked that a husband not only wants to have sex with his wife but expects to have sex with his .

Call me crazy but I thought that part of being married was being willing to fuck your partner.

Now I think this guy's being a creep in this situation,and that what he's doing isn't right. But I think that helping around the house and getting some reliable birth control would be a better way of dealing with the situation.

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	sagralisse 2004-04-09 04:02 pm UTC (link)
	It's not like you don't have a choice. If the idea of having sex with some person is repulsive to you, you could always, you know, not get married. And yes I realize that couples also have to accomodate different situations like having a bunch of babies running you ragged or having an illness or taking meds that mess up your sex drive. (Reply to this)(Parent)

(Anonymous)
2004-04-09 08:24 am UTC (link)

We don't have enough information to know whether she's abused or not, because we don't know what she thinks about it.

Ah, you see, but that's logic. Can't get as riled up about things if you bring an actual logical argument to the table. ^_-

Anyway... I think that, in the absence of evidence people use their own biases to fill in the gaps. From the phrasing of the letter and the stereotype of the inconsiderate horny man people infer that the woman has not given consent on the matter, and therefore she is equated to an abused party. There are actually some posters who got into a discussion about consensual sleeping sexual activities, contrasting that to (what they see as) the lack of consent in the letter.

-ADR

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	sagralisse 2004-04-09 04:07 pm UTC (link)
	Actually, she could easily claim that he raped her if that's what she felt like doing. It'd probably depend on the political climate whether he'd be prosecuted or not, but he's gotten his dumb ass into a precarious legal position. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	(Anonymous) 2004-04-09 06:53 pm UTC (link)
	Er, yes, not disputing that at all. I'm just saying that they're inferring it b/c, like you said, we don't have any evidence for her position on the matter either way. -ADR (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(Anonymous)
2004-04-10 07:17 am UTC (link)

we don't have any evidence for her position on the matter either way

Rather telling that he mentions she's too tired for sex, but doesn't mention how she feels about his having sex with her while she's asleep. He doesn't mention any birth control method either, which begs the question if he knows what they've used in the past or whether he even bothers with condoms now.

He doesn't mention a lot, does he? Except that he wants sex and she's too tired. And he's "found" that he can have sex with her while she's asleep.

My only worry is whether she could become pregnant

Not a terribly ~~nice~~ communicative guy. Horny little toad, though. It's one thing to roll over for sleepy sex one night without thinking about it. It's another to make screwing his sleeping wife what sounds like a habit, to be concerned about pregancy to the point of writing a stranger, to be discussing his concerns with a stranger rather than discussing it with his wife, and to word the description of the situation in the way he has.

YMMV.

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(Anonymous)
2004-04-10 09:14 am UTC (link)

He doesn't mention a lot, does he?

Which was exactly my point. We know nothing of this hypothetical couple besides what he said in his letter and what we can infer.

I'm not trying to judge the "right" or the "wrong" in this situation; I think the other thread has done that to death. All I've been trying to do is offer some explanation for sagra's original question (I'm not sure why the "she should have put out" guy is a troll when the "castration" people aren't.).

What my argument boils down to is that people come into any situation with their own biases and preconceived notions. We have no idea if this couple even exists, or what their real situation may be. Frankly, neither did the person who gave the original advice. All any of us can do is read what's there and then try to read between the lines.

What most of us read is "selfish asshole" (hence the abused/abuser viewpoint that I believe the "castration" argument arose from), but others see something slightly different. This guy is in a monogamous relationship and therefore his partner is the only one who can fulfill his sexual needs (aside from masturbation, which isn't the same experience as something done with a partner), since he (theoretically) would not be going outside of his marriage.

I mean, I think the only thing that we can know for sure, and all agree on, is that no one should be having sex with their partner without their knowledge/consent, whether it be because of sleep, drunkenness, or some other impairment. Beyond that, trying to judge the specific case is mostly guesswork, and our own biases/experiences/etc are what dictate how we treat the situation.

That is why I think the "castration" people were treated differently than the "she should put out" people.

-ADR

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oxydosic
2004-04-09 06:06 pm UTC (link)

so...if after having 2 kids i have next to no sex drive, i shouldn't remain married if i don't want to have sex with my husband? Sorry but it's my body, and i'm not going to lay there and pretend so he can get his jollies off. And if he really loved me he'd understand. I don't get your logic. You're putting more emphasis on sex than there needs to be,in my opinion. There's much more to a good relationship than fucking.

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	sagralisse 2004-04-09 08:28 pm UTC (link)
	What part of Assuming that you really do love your partner and want to maintain a happy relationship, you'll come to some sort of compromise. did you find confusing? (Reply to this)(Parent)