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	singe 2004-05-16 10:42 pm UTC (link)
	That brings up way too many freaky mental images. Dude, DON'T REVEAL NOTHIN'! PLEASE! (Reply to this)

	nicolae 2004-05-16 11:14 pm UTC (link)
	I've not actually left, and I've fpound that people are ridiculled for simply stating their beliefs, which others find a certain pleasure in condemning or insulting in some way. I hate this. "I'm just saying what I believe" is not a valid excuse. For ANYTHING. Guess I'm not a hard skinned b*****d like some in here are. No, you've just shown yourself to be extremely THIN-skinned. (Reply to this)

	ashenmote 2004-05-16 11:30 pm UTC (link)
	Hey, that's nice! has fun reading I bet someone is a smiley abuser in his current live. (Reply to this)

	sarajayechan 2004-05-16 11:53 pm UTC (link)
	"I'm leaving forever" = "I want lots of attention and for everyone to say they love me and beg me not to leave". I spent a lot of time around attention whores in IRC chats. (Reply to this)(Thread)

	ashenmote 2004-05-17 12:10 am UTC (link)
	I too, I too! Sometimes I miss my ignore-list when I navigate in LJ land. And that was before I left forever, of course. (Reply to this)(Parent)

(Reply from suspended user)

	squib 2004-05-17 07:39 am UTC (link)
	Perhaps this is because not all Pagans do magic? Some of us are in it for, y'know, the religion. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(Reply from suspended user)

	squib 2004-05-17 08:10 am UTC (link)
	I think that's a whole lot more likely in the *Wiccan* communities. Pagan has a LOT of Recons as active members, and most Recons don't do a whole lot of magic. Although it still comes up a bit too often in there for my taste, but YMMV. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(Reply from suspended user)

(Anonymous) 2004-05-17 11:30 pm UTC (link)

I tend to agree with you. While I don't think it would necessarily be 'ritual magic' in the Pagan community, or even really issues about history beyond the occasional book recommendations, it really does just tend to sometimes end up as a counseling center -_- and more discussion asking for advice on things that involve interpretation and etc rather than discussions about magic, herbalism, and the ilk. It kind of gets a little -too- informal and degenerative. I know the people I know consider personal relationships to be... I dunno, personal, for the most part. That tends to be the general notion there as well. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(Anonymous) 2004-05-18 10:28 pm UTC (link)

Has anyone lately looked at the dictionary definition of Pagan? I mean, not to sound wanky or anything, but Paganism has NOTHING to do with magic in the least. It's simply the fact that you are NOT a christian, and so therefore you are generalized with everyone else by being, in a word, Pagan. Now, most people today see pagan as "The non-cheezy Wicca", which I find utterly laughable in and of itself. But paganism is not a religion, it is merely the lack of being christian. I hope I don't really offend those who 'claim' paganism as their 'religion' with this. But I felt I had to speak up, if for no other reason than to stick my foot in my own mouth. ~Fangboy (The Anon who isn't) (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(Anonymous) 2004-05-19 05:34 am UTC (link)

Yes, but while that is the broadest definition, it isn't necessarily the most accurate as it is often meant today; it also doesn't really cover the social forces that come into play when referring to modern day Paganism (neo-paganism if you prefer ^^;). It's all rather subjective, though I guess. erm... as I'm not really sure how to define it well myself, please bear with me ^^; my basic understanding of it is this: Paganism, while I agree with you about it not being a religion, is generally used as an umbrella term for non-christian -nature- religions, largely of the West, and often with a polytheistic bent. Though it isn't limited to this, and generally excludes things like Bhuddism, Hinduism, and even Native American beliefs. And in this line of thought, magic does relate to paganism as it just tends to be that many pagans practice magic, herbalism, and etc, and many Pagan religions have this incorperated into them in some way. I think many label themselves as Pagan to simplify their beliefs into something that will give people a good general idea of them without confusing them ^^; or having to go into laborious explanations of terms. Especially for those whose beliefs generally fall into a similar spectrum, but do not fall under any specific religion for some reason. Those that might actually claim Paganism as their religion generally don't understand it, or have a reason for doing so. eh heh... I tend to stick my foot in my mouth a bit more than care too as well ^^; (constantly >_<). (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(Anonymous) 2004-05-19 10:05 am UTC (link)

Though it isn't limited to this, and generally excludes things like Bhuddism, Hinduism, and even Native American beliefs. You obviously weren't around during the days of the staunch missionaries... *chuckle* Neither was I, but my great-grandmother (who was Lakota, and had to live through the puritan-wank *ooh, new term for me*) told my mother of stories where a christian would occasionally come into their reservation with a bible screaming and calling them all "Paganistic Heathans" (forgive me if I misspell that...it's four in the morning) and saying that they must repent in the eyes of Jesus and god, and all that stuff, or they will all go to hell. There's also the problems with the Boxer revolution, and things like that in the east. So all in all, most of the time, Pagan is (supposed to be at least) that "catch-all umbrella term" for non-christian. On to other subjects; Yes, most people DO tend to relate the two words and what they mean because of the large number of spell casting pagan religions, which ironically are more famous now than they were then... But that doesn't make them any more right, like you say yourself, most people calling themselves pagans or claiming 'paganism' as a religion don't normally know what the holy hell they're talking about and (in my opinion) need to be slapped with a fish. The smartest pagans I've met have rationalized the reason they claim "pagan" as their belief is because most people have no clue what agnostic means, but know what pagan means instead. As a matter of fact, it was one of these people that explained to me what those two words mean in the first place, so I too had to be enlightened...*chuckle* Once more, I post to amuse, not to berate. And if I've stuck my foot in my mouth, let's laugh over a guinness and tell more jokes later. ~Fangboy (The Anon, who isn't!) (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(Anonymous) 2004-05-19 06:51 pm UTC (link)

*heathens :3 lol x_x thankfully the people doing that now just tend to yell at cameras -_- I guess I have to give up that point and agree for the most part ^^; as you do have a point, and I think I see what you were trying to get at better now. However, there is still a matter of context when distinguishing from the catch-all term, and the 'neo-pagan movement'. like you say yourself, most people calling themselves pagans or claiming 'paganism' as a religion don't normally know what the holy hell they're talking about and (in my opinion) need to be slapped with a fish. I agree ^^; The smartest pagans I've met have rationalized the reason they claim "pagan" as their belief is because most people have no clue what agnostic means, but know what pagan means instead. As a matter of fact, it was one of these people that explained to me what those two words mean in the first place, so I too had to be enlightened...*chuckle* hm lol that would make sense I guess, though I don't quite think I've ever seen an instance of that, personally x_x I just call myself Pagan because my beliefs stem from a variety of influences, and Pagan is a good term to get across the way my beliefs lean to pretty much anyone who asks, without copious explanation (though I suppose there's a problem if someone thinks that pagan=non-christian=SATAN!~~@!~!@# >_>). You weren't offensive ^_^ I think you have some interesting views. -tm (Reply to this)(Parent)

	smo 2004-05-17 02:33 am UTC (link)
	Those of us with the 'been there, done that' page stamped on our passports won't kiss butt- but we will happily comment on its hairiness or the constellations of pimples it might have. *snerk* (Reply to this)

	hylian_shadow 2004-05-17 08:19 am UTC (link)
	is not a place I feel safe to reveal my deeper Pagan self Why do I get the feeling that this guy is one of those people who will tell a complete stranger about all his problems? Oh, wait. It's because he was going to reveal "his deeper Pagan self" to a bunch of strangers in a livejournal community. (Reply to this)(Thread)

	smo 2004-05-17 02:15 pm UTC (link)
	Ugh, I hate people like that - and I always seem to attract them, too. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	vassilissa 2004-05-17 09:09 am UTC (link)
	I will *not* make a broomstick pun. That would be crude and immature. I will not. (Reply to this)(Thread)

	(Anonymous) 2004-05-19 10:06 am UTC (link)
	Oh, but you know you want to...it's so easy, and SOOOO much fun. *chuckle* ~Fangboy (The Anon who isn't) (Reply to this)(Parent)

	Athnor deoridhe 2004-05-17 07:58 pm UTC (link)
	OMG, Athnor, in a supreme example of "I am an attention whore," posts the question s/h/it whined s/h/it was too traumatized to because OMG ur mean!!! *snickers like mad* (Reply to this)(Thread)

	Re: Athnor smo 2004-05-17 08:26 pm UTC (link)
	Poll: stefanielynch - voice of reason, or voice of sockpuppet? (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	Re: Athnor yankthewank 2004-05-18 01:06 am UTC (link)
	It's odd that you should point that out because as I was reading I was thinking how very "reasonable" she seemed to be. Unless she's just one of those people who hates confrontation of any kind. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	Re: Athnor sarajayechan 2004-05-18 04:02 am UTC (link)
	That icon rules. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	Re: Athnor yankthewank 2004-05-19 07:19 am UTC (link)
	Thanks. I got it here: http://www.journalfen.net/community/fwank_icons (Reply to this)(Parent)

	Re: Athnor elkins 2004-05-18 05:07 am UTC (link)
	My vote is for "voice of reason." I think that if she were a sockpuppet, she'd be asking questions or posting statements that would segue far more readily into Athnor's claims of his own past life experiences. Instead, she's talking about being knee-deep in pig shit, which I suspect doesn't lead to anywhere Athnor himself really wants the conversation to go. Just MO. (Reply to this)(Parent)