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Tue, Feb. 17th, 2009, 04:27 pm
mariem_1: Twilight vs Stephen King, Round 3

John Granger from Hogwartsprofessor.com is so upset about King's diss of Twilight, that he made five pretentious posts about it: On Critical Reception of Harry Potter and Twilight: “It’s Deja Vu All Over Again” (Part 1: Genre)On Critical Reception of Harry Potter and Twilight: “It’s Deja Vu All Over Again” Part 2: Culture WarOn Critical Reception of Harry Potter and Twilight: “It’s Deja Vu All Over Again” (Part 3: Artifact)On Critical Reception of Harry Potter and Twilight: “It’s Deja Vu All Over Again” (Part 4: Derivative)On Critical Reception of Harry Potter and Twilight Part 5: Iconological Criticism and Best Sellers (A)People on Leaky Lounge (mostly davidenglish) mock him for that. ETA: sixth post - On Critical Reception of Harry Potter and Twilight Part 6: Iconological Criticism and Best Sellers (B): The second possibility is I think what we are seeing in The Twilight Saga. No, Ms. Meyer is not writing alchemical drama in the same way that Ms. Rowling does; it’s not a centerpiece of her genre melange and stage setting as it is in Harry Potter. But, as I think is obvious from the story templates she has chosen (Romeo and Juliet, etc.) and in what I will discuss here the next few days, she is writing fiction with involved moral, allegorical, even anagogical meaning. How is that possible?
Beyond the fact she is anything but the borderline illiterate many of her critics seem happy to assume she is (largely, I’m afraid, because she is a woman, a happily married mother, and a person whose faith is the center of her thinking life; call it “Governor Palin Syndrome”), we can start with how Ms. Meyer is writing much like Ms. Rowling on three or four levels just by telling her stories as she does. The Zombie theme of New Moon, for example, is, like the Dawn of the Dead movies they allude to, both allegorical and satirical. There are much grander correspondents that Ms. Meyer is after in her Bella Swan adventures but this politico-social Zombie element alone gives us allegorical meaning. The morality of Edward’s sacrifices in that book, too, and of Bella’s attempt to die to save her mother in Twilight, not to mention the commitment to principle over desires that Edward lives by (the online chapters of Midnight Sun are especially good for seeing this) make Ms. Meyer’s assertion that her books are only entertainment hard to take seriously. Tue, Feb. 17th, 2009 03:54 pm (UTC) (Anonymous)
Wow. Those are some the most pretentious essays of the TL;DR variety. This is like writing an essay on Claire's Boutique. Tue, Feb. 17th, 2009 04:07 pm (UTC)
miraba

Oh god, not him. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Anyone know if Davidenglish would accept an account here? Tue, Feb. 17th, 2009 04:33 pm (UTC)
mariem_1
Oh god, not him. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.One of my favorite comments by Granger: What on earth Jo killed Fred for is beyond me. To newcomers to the group: the Weasleys symbolise the chakras, and certainly there are still seven of them now, only George has to do all the work for the navel chakra on his own now. Perhaps there is some highly arcane fact I’m not aware of in the liberation of the chakras, for example perhaps the colour changes from red and green to one colour. I just don’t know.
Chris and I have been discussing the death of Vincent Crabbe. He creates a fire and dies in it. I guess that’s an alchemical fire. Vincent: victorious; Gregory: watchful. If you look back at the old posts you’ll see that the two strings are feminine and masculine. In the Bible they’re referred to as Ananias and Sapphira, and in the ancient Indian traditions as Ida and Pinggala. Our guess at the moment is that the alchemical fire created by Vincent fused the masculine/feminine into one androgynous force.
Other predictions that didn’t come true are very minor. For example Olympe didn’t come to Bill and Fleur’s wedding. Hardly a tragedy. (She could have come but not been mentioned. ha ha).
I’m very happy about Neville. His role at the end was vital to Harry’s quest. Without it Harry couldn’t have returned to Hogwarts. His act of killing ‘the old serpent’ is extremely significant! It symbolises the death of the old serpent fire in the spinal cord by the entrance of the Holy Spirit. And, as Bill pointed out, wearing the burning sorting hat evoked the image of the fiery tongues around the heads of the apostles at Pentecost.
Tue, Feb. 17th, 2009 04:19 pm (UTC)
senor_pinata

Lawdy, is it that hard to acknowledge that something can be enjoyable but not good? I like plenty of stupid crap but I don't pretend it has ~deep meaning~ Tue, Feb. 17th, 2009 04:53 pm (UTC) (Anonymous)
This reminds me of TWOP, where they over-analyze everything. (Don't get me started on the pretentous wacko that looks for deep life meanings from Supernatural--he/she critics the show like its up for Oscar nominations.) Some people don't seem to understand--there is nothing wrong with mindless entertainment.
Tue, Feb. 17th, 2009 05:43 pm (UTC)
jkefka
Tue, Feb. 17th, 2009 06:04 pm (UTC)
seiberwing

See, I like overanalyzing the shit out of stuff, mostly for my own amusement. But I don't pretend that a deep examination of the portrayal of sexuality and marriage in "Hogan's Heroes" is actually worth the internet it's printed on. Tue, Feb. 17th, 2009 06:39 pm (UTC)
cmdr_zoom

Big STAR WARS fan here, and I've had to admit this several times (especially after the prequels came out). Wed, Feb. 18th, 2009 02:32 am (UTC)
squeakthemouse

You're talking to someone whose favorite show is The Hills. Maybe I should start tl;dring about how watching a bunch of rich girls being catty is a deep and moving study of the human condition?
Thu, Feb. 19th, 2009 02:41 am (UTC)
julian_black

You would think, reading John Granger (or Harold Bloom, or any of the other critics he adores), that reading is SRS BZNS, and that if you choose to read silly stuff simply for escape and/or entertainment you're shallow, brainless, ill-educated, and a sterling example of the decline of Western Civilization. One mistake critics like Bloom make (and AS Byatt did it too, when sneering at HP) is that they fail to recognize that many people who read "crap" read and enjoy and understand the classics, too. All of the Austen enthusiasts I've met in HP fandom? They don't--they cannot--exist. Granger's got his ego completely wrapped up in being seen as an "expert" on the deeper meanings of wildly popular books. But since he wants to be taken seriously, he's in a bind--the books he chooses have to be taken seriously, as well. God forbid John Granger, Serious Scholar, be caught reading trash and loving it! So it must be proven worthy through rigorous analysis, which Granger provides. Only not. (FWIW, I don't believe for a moment that Granger loves Twilight so much as he loves its popularity. Analyzing SMeyer's work thus provides a fresh audience for his ludicrous writings, at a time when interest in HP is waning.) So he'll go to ridiculous lengths to analyze Twilight's "deeper" meanings (as he's imagined them), and defend it against all critics--but Stephen King's The Stand, or the Dark Tower series, are rubbish produced by a hack writer who is unqualified to give his opinions on popular fiction. Yeah. I find all of this hilarious, myself. And I confess there's also pathos to be found in watching a poor little mediocrity like John Granger scrambling for another 15 minutes of dubious fame. [makes popcorn]
Tue, Feb. 17th, 2009 04:48 pm (UTC)
sandyclaws68

What kills me (in the LMAO sense) about Granger and some of the people involved in the discussion at Leaky Lounge is how earnest they are to show that they are "deep readers" (and by extension deep thinkers). Yet for all of the deep reading and thinking they don't seem to realize that they end up looking like psedo-intellectual asshats. Yes, there is such a thing as reading deeper into a work of fiction. But there is also such a thing as reading TOO deep.
Tue, Feb. 17th, 2009 04:50 pm (UTC)
reeve

I know it's a famous quote and all, but isn't saying, "this is like deja vu all over again", (emphasis mine) kind of redundant? Anyway, that's a lot of tl;dr.
Tue, Feb. 17th, 2009 06:35 pm (UTC)
singe
I won’t let my 13 year old daughter read Twilight, Roundhead and prudent daddy that I am, though her older sisters have — and the ban will stay in effect until she’s finished all of Jane Austen’s novels and Stoker’s Dracula. With those books under her belt (forgive me that phrase), I think she’ll understand the books aren’t a template for her to follow but a book written on a template or two itself."My dad's making me read all this boring Victorian crap before I can read the sexy vampire stuff that all my friends are reading. Jeeezus, half the time I can't even understand what they're saying! I guess I'll have to get the Cliff Notes." Poor Austen, poor Stoker and that poor kid. I dearly hope that a pretentious father shoving his reading choices down her throat, and probably quizzing and lecturing her every step of the way, won't kill any love of reading she may have. The classics should never be made into a chore, goddamn it!
Tue, Feb. 17th, 2009 06:49 pm (UTC)
peachespig

I can't say I'm too surprised Granger enjoys Twilight, just because he's always been completely deaf to emotional tone. I once sat through him giving a lecture on Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince where he told us that Dumbledore wasn't really dead, because the person who had spent the end of the novel with Harry was Horace Slughorn using polyjuice. He seemed to find this Really Clever. When a friend of mine stood up and told him that would never happen because it would completely destroy the emotional resonance of those scenes, he just dismissed the very idea. Human interaction doesn't mean anything to him, he's too busy trying to solve the secret code. I hope he spends a whole lot of time looking for hidden Gnosto-alchemical meanings in Bella's whining. He's finally found a text that deserves his analysis.
Tue, Feb. 17th, 2009 10:32 pm (UTC)
deludedvision
I can't decide which is ultimately more depressing:
(1) That this person will be praised amongst Twilight fans for his valiant and "well-written" rebuttal to Stephen King, a god of fiction, or
(2) That this person has been or will be told that he is a talented writer.
One is a failure in the short-term, one in the long-term.
Tue, Feb. 17th, 2009 11:01 pm (UTC)
redtienightly

Clearly someone has way too much time on their hands... Maybe he should take up scrapbooking?
Tue, Feb. 17th, 2009 11:59 pm (UTC)
deludedvision
And now, my favourite parts. (Because this is what I do instead of working on a research paper as I should be.)
1. Granger cites the numerous individuals who've said Rowling's writing is crap. He follows that with: Ms. Meyer to my knowledge has not yet reached the attention of these critics but she has culture watchdog-reviewers of her own. TL;DR Version: Here all of the important critics who've put down Rowling's stuff, but since none of them have heard of Meyer, let's review Stephen King.
2.
You know what? No, I won't even skim these. I just won't. Wed, Feb. 18th, 2009 01:01 am (UTC)
calatha
the Weasleys symbolise the chakrasDid he make any analogy along those lines in the rest of those links for Twilight? I can't bring myself to read them.
Wed, Feb. 18th, 2009 01:35 am (UTC)
sablemouse
Twilight has vampires in it only as a pointed deconstruction of the vampire mythos/metanarrative; we’re light years from Bram Stoker here and much closer to Stan Lee, Jack Kirby, and Marvel GirlHe did not just compare Smeyer's vampires to comic book characters.
Wed, Feb. 18th, 2009 02:52 am (UTC)
cleolinda

Re: ETA: This time I got as far as "it’s not a centerpiece of her genre melange." Yeah. Dude, there's no THERE there.
Wed, Feb. 18th, 2009 05:16 am (UTC)
vzg
but the borderline illiterate many of her critics seem happy to assume she is (largely, I’m afraid, because she is a woman, a happily married mother, and a person whose faith is the center of her thinking life; call it “Governor Palin Syndrome”)Hahaha, yeah, no.
Wed, Feb. 18th, 2009 03:09 pm (UTC)
dragonsong12

Coming in late but: Can people PLEASE stop comparing "Romeo and Juliet" to "Twilight" as if that's ever a good comparison?! Quality aside, did all these twits miss the part where Romeo and Juliet is a tragedy and not a romance and that their obsessive love got them killed?! It was funny at first that THIS was the statement you wanted to make about Twilight, but now it's becoming surreal. ...sorry, my thoughts on tragedies.
Thu, Feb. 19th, 2009 04:46 am (UTC)
miera_c

You know, I'm an academic, so I'm a professional "string lots of polysyllabic words together" writer, and I'm looking at this and my eyes are rolling in my head. At least this guy is writing about pointless stuff on the Internet and not, say, something relevant to life. Thu, Feb. 19th, 2009 06:06 am (UTC) (Anonymous)
I had to look up what "anagogical" means. Now I'm sort of wishing I hadn't, because the idea of anyone reading Twilight anagogically is terrifying. |