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The HMS STFU - Meta Part 2: Ron, Hermione, Jealousy, and Bad Cliches (Part 2)
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![[info]](http://www.journalfen.net/img/userinfo.gif) lakme | | Link: | (Link) | | Time: | 2009-05-02 04:37 pm (UTC) |
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| I got that impression, too--he was more hurt that Harry didn't tell him he was submitting his name.
Snape spent his school years openly experimenting with Dark magic and hanging out with pureblood fanatics, taking Lily’s friendship pretty much for granted, and trying to get James and his friends expelled—likely so he could have Lily to himself without James flirting with her. He pretty much wanted to have his cake and eat it too—keep a Muggleborn friend while openly dabbling in Dark magic. He then spent the rest of his life moping over the fact that he could only have one or the other—the choice he made bit him in the ass. And he was so unaware of Lily’s feelings that he was perfectly content for Harry and James to die so long as he had a chance to get Lily on the rebound. He took it for granted that she would remain a babe in the woods as far as the wizarding world was concerned, and assumed that she would come back to him no matter what kind of stupid crap he said or did. And he was so unwilling to let go of that picture that he assumed that once James was out of the picture, she’d revert to being the little girl Snape always saw her as.
LOVE IT. A-friggin-men.
As for why Snape hates Neville, I really think he just hates all Gryffindors. Why? They took Lily away from him. If she'd been in Slytherin, maybe they could have stayed friends (accoreding to his twisted thinking, anyway). | | (Reply to this) (Thread) |
| | I don't think that the Snape-hates-all-Gryffindors thing sufficiently explains his constantly singling Neville out. Again, my theory is essentially that Snape had figured out that the Chosen One would be either Harry or Neville, and spent the rest of his life wishing that Riddle had gone after the Longbottoms instead. And he took it out on Neville like he took out his issues with James on Harry. | | (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread) |
| WORD CUBED.
He was going to poison a kid's pet in front of the entire class. If a teacher pulled that crap at any of the schools I've been in, that would have been more than enough to get his ass hauled in front of the school board, reprimanded, then fired with a permanent black mark on his reputation.
And then he PUNISHES HERMIONE FOR SAVING THE TOAD'S LIFE.
That scene was Snape at his most sadistic--right up there with his clearly looking forward to poisoning Harry just so he can watch him writhe around on the floor a bit before saving him... and giving him a zero on the assignment. Snape may have done the right thing in the end, but he was a seriously messed-up individual.
I can't help wondering if the fandom would take that scene so much in stride if Trevor had been a puppy. | | (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread) |
lakme | | Link: | (Link) | | Time: | 2009-05-02 04:54 pm (UTC) |
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| | If Trevor had been a puppy, definitely, but I also think that Snapefen tend to be something of intellectual snobs. They think of James as the dumb jock and Snape as the brilliant, misunderstood nerd. Neville is shown as not very smart until the later books when we learn he was just scared of Snape, unless you figured it out yourself. So I think a lot of Snapefen are like, well, it's his own fault his potion sucked; Snape was just being a good teacher. Twisted logic, of course. | | (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread) |
| A good teacher would have pointed out what Neville did wrong and/or showed him how to fix it. It's not like he can't spare five or ten minutes--he doesn't seem to do more than either sit at his desk and glower or breathe down the necks of students he doesn't like.
Say whatever you want about Slughorn, but at least he taught the damn class. He didn't just toss you into the deep end and mock you if you weren't swimming right away, like Snape does. | | (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread) |
lakme | | Link: | (Link) | | Time: | 2009-05-02 05:05 pm (UTC) |
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| Yeah, I agree. The fact that Harry and Neville did well when not around Snape says it all. I like Slughorn, actually--he shows me what Slytherin is more meant to be as opposed to the Voldemort Jugend.
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| One of the other things that annoys me is that Snapefen haul out that bit about Umbridge noting the potions classes tend to be ahead of the curve cirriculum-wise and they go into raptures of joy about how OMG HE'S SUCH A GRATE TEACHER HE'S SO TOUGH AND WISE, not bothering to notice that the standard for NEWT potions is an O on the OWL.
Their hero, the Red Hen, even admits that Snape probably purposely set the standard that way to sabotage future Potions masters from being likely to edge him out of his position. The man's not stupid. He has to know that indulging his petty exercises of power will end up hurting him one day, because someone someday will become Minister for Magic and ram through an educational decree booting him out of his job, Dumbledore or no Dumbledore.
So he's staving off that day as long as possible, even at the expense of British wizarding society.
Nice guy. *snerk* | | (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread) |
| I'd had thoughts about Snape trying to sabotage future generations, but I always figured it was my own feelings about bullying teachers coming to the fore, so I never pursued it any further. I kicked around the idea that Snape might be trying to sabotage the Auror roll, though.
But I decided against it in the end.
Here's the thing: Snape acts like someone who is TRYING to get fired. This guy is supposed to be a spy, someone who's good at playing his cards close to the chest. Unless he's a really lousy spy and Voldemort is just a moron, I can't help wondering if Snape is LETTING his hatred of James (in Harry's case) and other factors control his actions. Because he definitely seems to want out of the job.
But Dumbledore has this almost pathological need to see the best in people, so he brushes off what must be a laundry list of complaints against Snape. Maybe he even knows about the curse on the Defense position--surely Dumbledore told him after he kept applying for it.
I'll admit this is mostly conjecture, but Snape is clearly not cut out for teaching, and if anything, he seems to want to get away from it. | | (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread) |
| I sporfled a little because the "trying to get fired" thing suddenly makes quite a lot of comically good sense (considering JKR seems to write for purposeful exaggerated effect at times, such as the whole mountain-of-letters-to-Harry and the retreat-to-an-abandoned-island scenes, it's got a kind of plausibility about it).
I mean, the poisoning-Neville's-toad thing? That totally should have gotten him fired, and I bet once Augusta Longbottom heard about it, she blasted Dumbledore a good one at the next Board of Governors meeting and probably threatened to bring her contacts at the Ministry to bear. :P
I bet Snape was surprised as anyone when Dumbledore met with him privatelt later and just vaguely waved away the entire incident, then offered a sherbet lemon. :P
(Deleted/reposted to fix the last para) | | (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread) |
| I'm not trying to excuse Snape's bastardry--far from it--but seriously, if this guy is supposed to be a spy, supposed to be so good at Occlumency (I laughed when he called Harry "overly emotional" like he had room to talk), you'd think he'd be a bit less blatant with the favoritism and bullying.
And it would not surprise me if Dumbledore did indeed brush all of the complaints under the rug. At any given time there are probably enough letters coming in about Snape to line every owl cage at Hogwarts. | | (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread) |
| It would be the interesting fanfic that explores Snape's mingled fascination/disbelief/wonderment at Dumbledore's lack of interest in firing him.
That being said I don't like lurid descriptions of limitless sadism such as is written in the "Year of Darkness" fic. | | (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread) |
| | In addition, I've mentioned my Lily-wasn't-the-doe type theory before--the doe Patronus represents Snape's image of her, the picture of her that he spent the rest of his life holding on to, forever in denial that she grew up while he was focused on Dark magic and getting the Marauders expelled. | | (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread) |
| | Yeah, well, that whole thing strikes of "Sure, why not?" JKR doesn't always put her best stuff forward in interviews. I'm sorry, but it's true. | | (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread) |
| I'm sorry, but it's true.
It's just your personal opinion. And if the doe Patronus didn't represent the real Lily, why did it seem familiar to Harry? | | (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread) |
| (Anonymous) | | Link: | (Link) | | Time: | 2009-05-02 05:28 pm (UTC) |
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| *playing devil's advocate* Because Snape's idea of Lily contained part of the real her (i.e. had to be based on something) but was still a fantasy image? IDK.
Re. the bit about Lily's Patronus changing to match James's, I get really pissed off by seeing James-bashers mention in sig lines that this is wrong because "does mate with bucks and stags mate with hinds." Does don't mate with other does either, so go and boil your heads.
~ fullmoonjane @ LJ | | (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread) |
| | I like your comment here. I think it fits well; Lily probably learned at some point that James was a stag Animagus, and her Patronus changed around that time. I'm willing to bet that Snape's Patronus changed quite early to a doe, even before he realized the Marauders were Animagi (and he probably didn't get total confirmation of this until almost 20 years later, in PoA), and he assumed it was some aspect of Lily Evans he didn't fully understand, but liked anyway since it was about his conception of her. | | (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread) |
| | IKAWTC. (As far as we know) Tonks's Patronus didn't turn into a female werewolf, so why wouldn't Lily's be a stag? | | (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread) |
sheep | | Link: | (Link) | | Time: | 2009-05-02 07:02 pm (UTC) |
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| | I don't think it is a rule, just that it happens some times. It depends on the person, so it will vary. | | (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread) |
| (Anonymous) | | Link: | (Link) | | Time: | 2009-05-02 07:06 pm (UTC) |
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| | And if Lily's was a doe, why wouldn't Snape's be a stag? LOL it all seems kind of skewed by the fact that JKR doesn't have a lot of talent with consistency. Unless she's trying to tell us that Snape wanted to BE Lily, rather than be with her... | | (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread) |
| (Anonymous) | | Link: | (Link) | | Time: | 2009-05-02 09:36 pm (UTC) |
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| | I agree with sheep; there isn't a rule. Some people's patroni clearly represent someone else. (Harry's: James. Tonks's: Remus. Snape's: Lily. Dumbledore's: Fawkes. Aberforth's: a goat.) Other people's seem to represent themselves (this is rather less obvious, but Lily's seems to be an example, and I would guess Arthur Weasley's - a weasel). Perhaps something in your personality determines the difference. But there's no reason to think it's universally either yourself or the person you most care about. | | (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread) |
| | At the same time, though, since a) Lily's is the only one that's been pointed out as working that way and b) Lily's was described that way in an interview, off the cuff, it seems reasonable to assume that it's "one of those interview things". | | (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread) |
lakme | | Link: | (Link) | | Time: | 2009-05-03 05:10 pm (UTC) |
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| | Now I'm wondering about animagi, too. Do they always match their patronus? Like, would McGonagall's be a cat, like Umbridge's? Do you get to pick what animal you become? | | (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread) |
| (Anonymous) | | Link: | (Link) | | Time: | 2009-05-04 09:16 pm (UTC) |
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| McGonagall's Patronus is a tabby cat with spectacle eye-markings, just like her Animagus, and apparently she can cast 3 at once. DH, p480 (UK edition).
~ Fernmonkey | | (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread) |
| (Anonymous) | | Link: | (Link) | | Time: | 2009-05-05 10:18 am (UTC) |
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| OK, so we have another case of a patronus which represents the owner herself.
(Also, when JKR was asked 'What would your animagus form be?', she replied 'The same as Hermione's - an otter'. This was a mistake, of course - Hermione isn't an animagus - but suggests she does see patronus and animagus form as going together.) | | (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread) |
| (Anonymous) | | Link: | (Link) | | Time: | 2009-05-04 08:12 pm (UTC) |
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| | It's not just an interview thing: it's also a Harry thing. It's hard to see how he could know, but he does say it. | | (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread) |
bigi | | Link: | (Link) | | Time: | 2009-05-03 10:38 pm (UTC) |
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| I think the happy memory plus the feelings behind it drive the shape the patronus takes. Maybe Lily was happy in her relationship so it was a doe to go with James' stag because it was the relationship that made her happy whereas Tonks' might represent how completely she loved and accepted Remus so it became a werewolf.
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| (Anonymous) | | Link: | (Link) | | Time: | 2009-05-06 08:27 am (UTC) |
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| I dunno. I always thought of it as symbolizing that Lily and James had a complete, fulfilled relationship while Tonks's patronus manifested as a werewolf because her love for Remus was unfulfilled. But we never saw Tonks's Patronus after the end of HBP, so I guess I'll never know. Just a wacky theory.
-Miss_Mercurial on LJ | | (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread) |
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The HMS STFU - Meta Part 2: Ron, Hermione, Jealousy, and Bad Cliches (Part 2)
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