The HMS STFU - Two Views of James Potter
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May 5th, 2009
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| I find it hard to take seriously any argument that tries to prove a point using a film called Bambi Meets Godzilla ... And don't forget, folks, using Scourgify is now akin to waterboarding! Quick, someone have Rowling arrested for crimes against humanity! ~ fullmoonjane @ LJ | ||||||
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| That film is like all of - thirty seconds long if I'm recalling it right. It's like half a minute of a cartoon deer nibbling grass, then it looks up and godzilla's foot descends on it. The end. XD | ||||||
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| That part about the Scourgify = waterboarding? I facepalmed and wondered if waterboarding is going to be the new mini-Godwin's. | ||||||
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| James Potter - like Voldemort, only worse... Except arguing with only selected facts is ridiculous. They always miss on the fact that James went to head off Voldemort in knowledge of certain death to give his wife and baby their one chance of escape. I don't give a fuck what sort of a toerag JP might have been as a teen - when the big one came, he was prepared without second thought, without qualification to lay down his life for the sake of his family. I don't care how heroic Snape's spying might have been, he never matched up to that single, matchless act of self sacrifice. In fact, Snape was hoping Voldemort would cut him a break by offing James and Harry, so he could comfort the grieving widow. The two men don't even match on any moral tariff. No child could ask for more from a father than what James was prepared to do for Harry. And while levelling the usual whinging charage that James uses Levicorpus in the worst memory scene, they conveniently forget that it was their woobie, Snape, who invented the thing in the first place. I'll reiterate for the benefit of whatever losers from Snapeshite come and look: Snape was and still is my favourite HP character. But the real one, the flawed one, the loser and mess-up. Not the crapfic woobie they married on some astral plane. | ||||||
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| Oh, but it doesn't matter that Snape invented it because he would have only used it in self-defense. | ||||||
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| I don't care how heroic Snape's spying might have been, he never matched up to that single, matchless act of self sacrifice. In fact, Snape was hoping Voldemort would cut him a break by offing James and Harry, so he could comfort the grieving widow. When I read that I honestly lost whatever little sympathy I might have ever had for the character. | ||||||
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And while levelling the usual whinging charage that James uses Levicorpus in the worst memory scene, they conveniently forget that it was their woobie, Snape, who invented the thing in the first place. They also seem to forget reason that particular incident was Snapes Worst Memory. And it wasn't because of anything James or Sirus did. It was because Snape said something that drove away the best friend he had. That is why that day haunted him. It was because of what HE said, HE did. And deep down, he knows it. The problem with Snape as the victim of bulling by James and Sirus is that ignores that Snape was perfectly capable of fighting back. It wasn't the case of the football player bullying some poor geek/nerd who he has six inches and fifty pounds on. It was much more of a fair fight then that. It also wasn't like everyone loved James and Sirus. Snape had his friends, Snape had his. | ||||||
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| You know, normally I would read that and post excerpts here, but I'm just done with terri_testing and her essays. The discussion on Sirius seems interesting, though. | ||||||
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| I'm not even looking. It'll be nothing more than Snape-apologia to make Snape sound like he should be up for beatification, coupled with anybody-who-ever-so-much-as-looked-at-Sn See, I've summarized it for you. | ||||||
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| What strikes me as peculiar about the first essay is the number of vital themes that the author is willing to tear apart in order to make James Potter the villain. This, for example: "We know who did talk of James to Harry: Quirrelmort, Dumbledore, Hagrid, Sirius, Remus under Sirius’ influence, and Severus. As for Severus—for two years Snape DIDN’T throw the despised James in Harry’s face, whatever he might have felt." The author claims that people did not talk about James prior to Sirius' arrival. This is blatantly untrue as, in addition to Hagrid's utter moral outrage at the fact that the Dursleys had not told Harry about his parents, had in fact lied to him about them, which the author seriously downplays, I remember quite clearly that McGonagall told Harry how proud his father would be that Harry showed aptitude for Quidditch-- and smiled as she said it. People talk about the Potters far more than they talk about the Longbottoms, who were considered 'very popular' in their day. But it is true that Snape did not talk about James. And the author regards that as a virtue, rather than a serious character flaw. I'm confused. As I understand it, Harry, as a child growing into an adult and a boy growing into a hero, needed to understand where he came from in order to fulfil his destiny. He needed to know exactly what happened the night that Voldemort killed his parents in order to know how to defeat Voldemort. All the back story, however tangential it may have seemed, had the aim of equipping him to make the right choices when the time came to face his enemy. And Snape isn't a villain, but he is an antagonist. His goal is to keep Harry in the dark. Indeed, for over two years he was willing to persecute Harry without having the decency to tell him why. Harry had to find out what was going on there from Quirrell and Dumbledore. Every bit of information about Snape's past has to be stolen or overheard or wrested from him by force. And just about everything that Harry learns leaves him baffled and angry because it's dropped on him unawares and largely without context. He has to go and find somebody, with Dumbledore, Sirius and Lupin being the primary candidates, who will give him the context he needs to understand what he just learned. Because Snape won't give context and he certainly won't admit guilt. Indeed, we ultimately learn that keeping Harry ignorant was a condition of Snape's service. To Snape Harry was a thing to be protected, not an individual who needed to be taught how to protect himself-- which explains why he behaved so irresponsibly during the Occlumency lessons. Snape didn't want Harry to be an adult or a hero. I always thought that the point of The Prince's Tale was that Snape was finally giving Harry the right to make informed decisions, that he had, at last, stopped lying and concealing and was acknowledging that a lot of the awful things that happened to Harry were, in fact, at least partly his fault. Because Harry needed to know that to deal with the situation in front of him. But apparently not, because the important theme of the Harry Potter saga is that James is just like Tom Riddle. Er. I hope this is okay. I've been reading for a while, and I checked the community information and there was no rule against random strangers ranting about things. And this puzzles me. Almost as much as the author calling Snape 'Severus.' I mean-- I'm very fond of McGonagall. Am I obliged to refer to her as 'Minerva' in defiance of the naming conventions? --maenad | ||||||
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| Anything to make James the villain--it's practically required to be a Snapefen these days. That said, WORD. | ||||||
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| Of course strangers/lurkers can respond! Although I can get you an account if you'd like to not be a stranger. | ||||||
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| One thing about the Occlumency lessons made me dislike Snape all the more, if that was possible. (Love him as a character though - very meaty!) He had total access to Harry's head and even questioned him about some of the incidents (eg "Who did the dog belong to?"). The man had no empathy what-so-ever - and considering some of their experiences were very similar, I'd expect better from an adult ... even one as messed up as Snape. I also can't help wondering if there wasn't a little vindictive part of Snape which WANTED Harry to see what James was like at his worst. Harry, unlike Snape, actually came out of that experience with a bit of sympathy for Snape. I think that's the thing that makes me particularly irritated with the people who act like Snape is just some poor misunderstood snowflake. He had a kid he was supposed to be helping - a kid who was going though all sorts of mental rubbish due to the connection with Voldemort - and instead of actually being helpful (which I'm sure Lily would have though was a good thing) he decided to mess with the kids head even more. How can that be the action of a mentally balanced, decent person? | ||||||
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| Why does she keep posting "essays" that say the same thing over and over again. Does she suspect people will think she's changed her mind about how much she hates James if she doesn't post a diatribe every now and then? | ||||||
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I just don't understand people who complain that fictional characters (or real humans, for that matter) are complex, multi-faceted and flawed. How does this make any sense at all? Of course James and Sirius and Remus weren't perfect. Duh. But the same people who wring their hands over their school bullying (I won't mince words--it was) also want to completely let off Snape for anything he ever did to anyone. The idea that some characters are "permitted" to be flawed while others become completely worthless for not being perfect (and therefore badly-written, IMO) is just a double-standard, showing that the people in involved are completely incapable of admitting, "I like this character better than that one," rather than claiming that there is some objective criteria for evaluating characters that justifies their preference. (And the same people, as ![[info]](http://www.journalfen.net/img/userinfo.gif){kind=small} azazello often points out, would be absolutely SCORNED by Snape and cut to little ribbons by his words--if not his wand--within about ten seconds if they were ever in the same room with him.) When you think about it, in the end, Snape and the Marauders all end up fairly even: The Bad: - James & Sirius bully other students while in school - Remus & Peter stand by while J & S bully others - James, Sirius, Peter and Remus risk others' lives during the full moon - James, Sirius and Peter become illegal Animagi - Sirius risks Remus's becoming a killer ("The Prank") - Sirius treats Kreacher very badly - Peter betrays Lily & James (VERY bad) - Peter frames Sirius - Peter helps Voldemort get his body back - Snape calls Lily a racist name and takes up with other racists - Snape becomes a Death Eater, performing an unknown number of heinous acts - Snape tells Voldemort the prophecy that leads him to target Harry - Snape spends years abusing Neville, Hermione, Ron, Harry and other students - When Snape is pretending to be a DE again, sometimes people die for him to maintain his cover The Good: - Sirius turns away from his family's Dark Arts ways - James's family takes in Sirius - James, Sirius and Peter stand by Remus after learning he's a werewolf - James saves Snape's life - James, Sirius, Peter & Remus join the first Order of the Phoenix, risking their lives repeatedly - James dies at the hand of Voldemort - Sirius tries to come up with a foolproof plan by suggesting Peter be Secret Keeper - Sirius goes to Hogwarts to protect Harry the moment he thinks he's in danger from Peter - Peter bites Goyle for Ron (while he's "Scabbers") - Peter tries to convince Voldemort to use someone else's blood to get his body back - Peter entertains the idea of being disobedient to Voldemort and dies because of it * - Sirius goes to the Ministry to try to save Harry and the others and loses his life in battle - Remus helps Harry learn to conjure a Patronus - Remus becomes part of the second Order & goes undercover - Remus loses his life in battle - Snape agrees to spy for Dumbledore - Snape sends his Patronus to help Harry - Snape avoids injuring the other professors when dueling with them - Snape helps Dumbledore stay alive long enough to teach Harry - Snape agrees to kill Dumbledore, though he doesn't want to - Snape dies for the cause And then the kicker: What are Harry's kids names? They include James, Sirius, Albus and Severus. I know that some of the wankers don't give a hoot about Harry and think he's just a distraction, but it seems like the hero's opinion should count for something. He had doubts about his father and godfather once he learned they had feet of clay. He hated Snape for years but now calls him "the bravest man I ever knew". He frequently felt angry at Dumbledore during DH but also named a child for him. Lauding Snape's complex character but lambasting other characters for being complex? IT HAS TO STOP. /rant * The question now is: Did Peter know the whole time he had the hand that the moment he disobeyed or even entertained the thought of disobedience he would die? | ||||||
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| Did Peter know the whole time he had the hand that the moment he disobeyed or even entertained the thought of disobedience he would die? Tangential question: Why did the hand kill Peter? When he reconsidered his descision to strangle Harry he was obeying Voldemort wasn't he? | ||||||
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In reading those essays I'm wondering why it is all the Snapefen feel like they have to imitate the Bold Sentence Pattern of the Red Hen's analysis pieces, such as this gem:I had a very long exchange with a Sirius fangirl (Nyxfixx) last year which altered my understanding of Sirius. Not that she got me to like him, or to forgive his treatment of Severus. But she did get me to see that his mind worked fundamentally differently from mine in some ways, and that behavior I saw as inexcusable, in fact criminal, was not ill-meant from his point of view. And of course, the stupidly annoying 'acto's. | ||||||
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Addendum:My grudge against Sirius was two-fold. I could wrap my mind, barely, around the thought that sending Severus to Remus in the Shrieking Shack was not attempted premeditated murder. It was hard for me to grasp that idea, because it seems intuitively obvious to me (as it did to Severus himself) that the expected, normal, predictable result of sending a sixteen-year-old into an enclosed space with an unconfined werewolf is a dead (or mutilated and infected) sixteen-year-old. So one would not do it unless one wanted that result. But Sirius was thoughtless and careless; maybe he really was stupid enough to imagine that Snivellus would just get a scare. Why is it that these Snapefen have to be practically bashed over the head repeatedly before they finally GET IT THAT YES SIXTEEN-YEAR-OLD MALES MAKE DUMB DECISIONS. I've said this before, but some of the brilliant ideas I came up with at the age of sixteen make me repeatedly double facepalm now when I consider them twenty some years later. Oh, but I forgot. Sirius Black deserves no consideration and eternal torment because he dared to hate their woobie. *rolls eyes* | ||||||
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| I am kind of impressed with that. I have never seen a Snapefan of any degree say anything like "maybe Sirius wasn't totally evil". | ||||||
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| Then there’s one more parallel. James is described to us as a dark-haired, charming boy, “exceptionally bright”, attractive to both his contemporaries and his teachers, regarded with distrust by his Transfiguration teacher but generally receiving such acclaim he makes Head Boy. After years of his gang’s terrorizing other students, and after successfully covering up at least one overt crime he’s involved in—releasing a Dark creature on unsuspecting potential victims. And the headmaster never suspects him. Like Tom Riddle. WHAT? How is pal-ing around with a werewolf even comparable to setting a basilisk on people?? | ||||||
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| "The fundamental thing that Nyxfixx made me realize about Sirius is that he was a child of privilege." I am so hating this essay that I am tempted to rebut (sp?) it POINT BY POINT. | ||||||
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| After reading the essay, I have to admit that she does have a good reason for getting her hackles up over intent. I think she goes way over the top with her interpretation of the Marauders, but I can sort of see why she'd have an issue. Even years later, in dragging his feet in taking the Wolfsbane that night, Lupin didn’t mean to almost kill three kids, to allow Pettigrew to go free, and to condemn Sirius to remaining a fugitive; he just wanted to wind Snape up a little. THAT, however, is dead wrong. Lupin ran out in a panic before Snape got there with the potion; plus, Snape intended to have them both Kissed. | ||||||
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| Okay, here is my point-by-point rebuttal of the essay. If you disagree, that's cool, but some of the points were too ridiculous for me to ignore. http://www.journalfen.net/users/lakme/7 | ||||||
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| cardigrl's comment is made of special: What their fans defend as acceptable traits in golden boys translates in the real world as sociopaths. Some of them go decades with no consequences, leaving devastation behind them. I simply cannot find any sympathy for them, and it continues to concern me that fangirls think that because they are incapable of the basic human trait of empathy, that means they are good. But then, I see that kind of whiny excuses and self-justification almost every day....in criminal court, after interviewing the victims of their crimes. (not *your* excuses, but the fangirls, who honestly sometimes say almost word for word what defendants come up with. One of the more recent ones insisted that his rape victim actually "wanted it", despite being 5 years under age at the time). But if the fangirls really like that sort of guy, he's all theirs. ;-). | ||||||
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| Every time I see one of these damn essays banging on about how terrible James and Co were, it reminds me of Snapes memory when he and Lily were out walking by the lake and they were arguing about his friends. ' ... thought we were supposed to be friends?' Snape was saying. 'Best friends?' 'We are, Sev, but I don't like some of the people you're hanging around with! I'm sorry, but I detest Avery and Mulciber! Mulciber! What do you see in him, Sev? He's creepy! D'you know what he tried to do to Mary Macdonald the other day?' Lily had reached a pillar and leaned against it, looking up into the thin, sallow face. 'That was nothing,' said Snape. 'It was a laugh, that's all-' 'It was Dark [Error: Irreparable invalid markup ('<agic,>') in entry. Owner must fix manually. Raw contents below.] Every time I see one of these damn essays banging on about how terrible James and Co were, it reminds me of Snapes memory when he and Lily were out walking by the lake and they were arguing about his friends. <i> ' ... thought we were supposed to be friends?' Snape was saying. 'Best friends?' 'We </i>are<i>, Sev, but I don't like some of the people you're hanging around with! I'm sorry, but I detest Avery and Mulciber! </i>Mulciber!<i> What do you see in him, Sev? He's creepy! D'you know what he tried to do to Mary Macdonald the other day?' Lily had reached a pillar and leaned against it, looking up into the thin, sallow face. 'That was nothing,' said Snape. 'It was a laugh, that's all-' 'It was Dark <agic, and if you think that's funny -' 'What about the stuff Potter and his mates get up to?' demanded Snape. His colour rose again as he said it, unable, it seemed, to hold in his resentment. 'What's Potter got to do with anything?' said Lily.</i> ... and so on. Lily had it right. What's James got to do with ANYTHING? Snape was attempting to divert her attention from the fact that he was being a dick. SOME Snapefen keep on trying to do the same thing, again using James (and mates) the same way. As Lily said: <i>'I know James Potter's an arrogant toerag,' she said, cutting across Snape. 'I don't need you to tell me that. But Mulciber and Avery's idea of humour is just evil. </i>Evil<i>, Sev. I don't understand how you can be friends with them.'</i> James was a shit, as a teenager. He grew out of it - Snape didn't. Simple. | ||||||
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The HMS STFU - Two Views of James Potter
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