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Subject:What's Love Got to Do With It? Everything!
Time:08:18 am
The greatest thing you'll ever learn

is just to love and be loved in return.
—Eden Ahbez, “Nature Boy”

Language is a funny thing.

 And sometimes it gives us a bit of trouble—when translating something from one language to another, sometimes things get lost. Same with forgotten customs. That’s why we have Bibles with footnotes, after all.

Also, languages change and evolve over time. English is no exception—it has grown and changed and absorbed words and phrases and various elements from numerous other languages over the centuries, now with something close to a million words. At any given time, a billion people worldwide are learning English. And the language is in a constant state of flux—these days even Shakespeare needs footnotes to be fully understood (or to be translated in order to preserve the bawdy humor Shakespeare was known for).

But I digress.

One large problem with the English language is that it has only one word for “love.” This encompasses everything from familial affection to romance to a collective love of humanity.

Margaret Atwood once said, “The Eskimos had fifty-two names for snow because it was important to them: there ought to be as many for love.” I have to say I agree—love is too complicated to be described have one blanket word.

It’s a very, VERY big word.

But it's thrown around so much that it's lost quite a bit of its meaning.

Case in point—the definition that fandom in particular seems to focus on for “love” is “romance.” This may have something to do with the fact that fandoms in general tend to be made up of... well, let's face it... teenage girls.

And when it's said that “love” will be the deciding factor in something, they leap to what seems like the obvious conclusion.

They don't think of friendship. They don't think of family. They don't think of a greater, higher love for humankind in general. Their relationship-obsessed minds leap right to romance, sex, and babies.

But life isn't like that.

Me, I like friendship fics—reading and writing them. I like family fics. I like fics that highlight Harry's "saving-people thing" and treat it as a virtue. Because there’s more to love—more to life—than romance, sex, and babies.

To be fair, we all tend to focus on “love” as meaning “romantic relationships.” It’s why people have trouble with hearing love being described as “patient and kind” and “keeping no record of wrongs.” (as described in 1 Corinthians 13) They think that this is referring to romantic love or friendship, that it’s a standard no one can ever live up to. But there are different definitions of love. The Greek language, for example, has four definitions of “love.”

The Harry Potter fandom is no exception when it comes to the apparent belief that the only kind of love that matters is romantic.

When Dumbledore tells Harry that it is his ability to love that will be key to defeating Voldemort, indeed that it is the much vaunted “power the Dark Lord knows not”, Harry honestly wonders what the big deal about that—and, to be fair, so did I. Or at least at first.

There were—and still are—a lot of theories about what Dumbledore meant. The Harmonians—and other ship-centric portions of the fandom—interpreted this to believe that there would be some kind of OMGSPESHUL love-related or love-powered magic that only their avatar and her love Harry and Hermione could use that would be used to destroy Voldemort once and for all. And then they were upset after the canon showed that they were wrong.

I contend that they weren’t even close to the truth.

XxXxX

One of my favorite authors is C.S. Lewis. Though he is perhaps best known for the Chronicles of Narnia, he was also something of a philosopher, who wrote and lectured extensively on Christianity and numerous topics related to it.

One of these topics is love. I mentioned that Greek has four words for love, each with differing definitions—Lewis touches on all of them in his book The Four Loves, which examines love from a Christian perspective. Apparently Lewis initially mistook John’s words in 1 John 4:8, “God is Love”. By distinguishing need-love (like that of, say, a child for his mother) from gift-love (epitomized by God’s love for humanity), Lewis came to the conclusion that the natures of even these basic characterizations of love are more complicated than they appear to be at first.

Based on the four Greek words for love, Lewis divides love into four categories: affection, friendship, romance, and charity.

I have noticed, in rereading the Harry Potter series, that all four of these “loves” come into play—and each and every one of them is instrumental in Harry’s life, and (I would argue) his quest to defeat Voldemort.

Love really is the “power the Dark Lord knows not”, just not in the way many of us expected.

XxXxX

JKR almost certainly reads C.S. Lewis—there’s quite a bit of Narnia in her world (and not just use of a cabinet as a way to get from one place to another, either). She takes sources from British literature and other popular culture (Chocolate Frogs and Cockroach Clusters are definitely references to Monty Python’s Flying Circus, for example), and other mythologies.

But I realized she was reading Lewis’ nonfiction works as well after I read through “The Warlock’s Hairy Heart” from The Tales of Beedle the Bard. The titular warlock, like Voldemort, is described as seeing emotion as a weakness, and taking steps to ensure that he is immune to it—much like the steps Voldemort takes to ensure his own physical immortality. The language used to describe the warlock’s steps—and what results from them—is frankly quite effective. JKR has said that the process of actually creating a Horcrux is disgusting. I know that the titular “hairy heart” is probably supposed to be reminiscent of the soul-fragment in a Horcrux—she even says in DH that reintegrating one can be fatal—but I think there’s more to it.

There’s a passage from The Four Loves that may have directly inspired this story:

"To love at all is to be vulnerable. Love anything, and your heart will certainly be wrung and possibly be broken. If you want to make sure of keeping it intact, you must give your heart to no one, not even to an animal. Wrap it carefully round with hobbies and little luxuries; avoid all entanglements; lock it up safe in the casket or coffin of your selfishness. But in that casket—safe, dark, motionless, airless—it will change. It will not be broken; it will become unbreakable, impenetrable, irredeemable. The alternative to tragedy, or at least to the risk of tragedy, is damnation. The only place outside of Heaven where you can be perfectly safe from all the dangers and perturbations of love is Hell." (emphasis added)

 So it would not surprise me if she had read The Four Loves at some point.

(I have a point here, and I am getting to it.)

Because, again, all four kinds can be seen in Harry’s life, and come into play in defeating Voldemort.

XxXxX

First is storgē (στοργή). The Greek word refers to natural affection, which applies to family love—for example, that of a parent toward a child. It may also be used as a general term to describe the love between exceptional friends, and the desire for them to care compassionately for one another. 

Lewis describes storgē as fondness through familiarity, between family members or people who have found themselves bound together by chance. Storgē is described as the most natural, emotive, and widely diffused of loves: natural because it is present without coercion; emotive because it is the result of fondness due to familiarity; and most widely diffused because it pays the least attention to those characteristics deemed “valuable” or “worthy” of love and, as a result, is able to transcend most discriminating factors. Ironically, its strength is what makes it vulnerable. Storgē has the appearance of being “built-in” or “ready-made”, and as a result people come to expect, even to demand, its presence—regardless of their behavior and its natural consequences.

Harry experiences storgē from and towards the people who have become his family. (Little side note: some of you may remember one of the possible titles passed around for Book 6—Harry Potter and the Pillar of Storgē, which is now quite humorous in hindsight. Hell, even JKR thought it was funny.)

The Weasleys are perhaps the most noticeable example, in that they love him for him—not for his fame or money or prestige. As I mentioned in my previous post, when we meet Ron for the first time, Harry has already met most of Ron’s immediate family; Molly helped him onto the platform, and the twins even helped him get his trunk onto the train and into a compartment—all before they realized who he was.

This says a great deal about the Weasleys—Molly Weasley, a textbook mother hen, sees a child alone without parents or other family members politely asking her for help, and offers it without hesitation. Her reaction to finding out it was Harry Potter? “No wonder he was alone.” Fred and George happily help what they think is just another little first-year get his trunk onto the train and squared away before either of them notices his scar. (Ron and Ginny's reactions are understandable, considering they're eleven and ten at the time, respectively.) Ron, Fred, and George came to rescue Harry after they figured out he needed rescuing. Ron even stood on a broken leg to stand up for his friends.

And on and on.

The Weasleys arguably took in Hermione as well, and after the Department of Mysteries I half-expected to see Neville and Luna hanging out around the Burrow—it’s been observed that love is the only thing in the world that gets bigger as you spread it around, and the Weasleys serve as an example.

You could also argue that Harry’s love for—and being loved by—Sirius falls into this category. No one had to convince either of them to care about each other; Sirius cared about Harry from the first, to hear Sirius tell it, and once Harry knew the truth about Sirius’ innocence it was almost like they’d been family all along. When Sirius dies, Harry’s reaction isn’t just that of one losing a close friend; it’s that of losing a family member. He’s losing a major connection to his parents, and a friend who’s been there for him whenever he could be. Granted, Sirius is mentally damaged by his stay in Azkaban—though not to the extent that the Marauder-loathers seem to wish think he was—but Harry was able to look past it. Proof that Harry doesn’t only judge on appearances—he isn’t as superficial as the Dursleys, folks!

Harry also loves other people this way—he feels an almost paternal protectiveness towards the people he cares for.

I would argue that Harry feels this way toward Ron and Hermione—he thinks of Hermione as a sister, and I would say that it’s not much of a stretch to say he thinks of Ron as his brother (though he definitely doesn’t think of Ginny that way). Ron and Hermione almost certainly feel the same way about him. They’re the ones he allows to come with him on the Long Campout, as I’ve come to call it, while Harry leaves Ginny behind.

Family is one’s support system. And I mean “support” in pretty much every sense of the word—emotional, psychological, spiritual, you name it. And Harry’s family is no exception. Even when Molly is being overprotective, they’re all there whenever he needs them, to the best of their ability. It’s why the loss of any of them is felt so keenly by Harry.

Voldemort does not understand this kind of love—one could argue that he took the path he did because he decided somewhere along the line, maybe even before Dumbledore came to the orphanage, that he neither needed nor wanted such a support system, vowing to become so strong and powerful that he would never need anyone’s protection. Like the aforementioned warlock in the Beedle the Bard story, he sees emotion as weakness.

XxXxX

Second is philia (φιλíα). In Aristotle’s Nicomachean Ethics, this is usually translated as “friendship”, though Aristotle’s use of the term is a bit broader than that—he includes young lovers, lifelong friends, political or business contacts, fellow soldiers, members of the same religious society or tribe, and numerous others. Aristotle describes philia as needing to be mutual (and thus excluding relationships with inanimate objects, though it may include pets). He defines the activity involved in philia in Rhetoric: “wanting for someone what one thinks good, for his sake and not for one's own, and being inclined, so far as one can, to do such things for him”. In other words, doing well by someone for his own sake, out of concern for him (and not merely for oneself), and seeking for them to do well by you. Aristotle even describes philia as necessary as a means to happiness.

Lewis, meanwhile, describes philia as a strong bond between people who share a common interest or activity—it doesn’t just mean companionship; in his sense, friendship only exists if there’s something for it to be “about.” It is the least “natural” of loves, according to Lewis, because it is not “built-in” or biologically necessary to progeny (as affection is to rearing a child, romance to creating a child, and charity to providing for a child).

The ancients believed (and Lewis agrees) that philia is the most admirable of loves because it does not look at the beloved—philia has the least association with impulse or emotion—but rather the “about”, the thing around which the relationship was formed.

I would argue that the Order of the Phoenix and the DA would fall under this heading to varying degrees (under the Aristotlean definition of “fellow soldiers” and “members of a society or fraternity”, as well as Lewis’ definition of having a common interest or activity—or, in this case, a common cause or purpose). Harry also feels this type of love toward people with whom he shares a common bond. He sees Neville as a friend (though maybe “comrade”—in the military sense—would be a more appropriate term), for example, because of the common bond of the prophecy. He sees Luna as a friend—or comrade—because they have the common bond of knowing what it’s like to be on the outside looking in, to be looked at differently because people who think they know everything about you actually know very little. Luna emphasizes that she is Harry's friend because she has so few of them.

One could argue that Harry's original bond with Ginny—which evolves into romantic love over time (friendships do that sometimes, and it's been said that if you love someone you should try to have them as a friend first)—is based on their own common bond, formed in the Chamber of Secrets, and the fact that they both either were or are connected to Voldemort, and have both had to face him at one time or another in their lives. He has also fought beside Neville and Luna, and that forms a bond of its own.

If Ginny qualifies, then so do Ron and Hermione—while Harry initially wants to leave them behind while he hunts Horcruxes, in the hopes of keeping them safe, they have the common bond forged by years of friendship. They were bonded together in the first place by a common experience—the troll—and this bond has only grown stronger since.

Harry’s friends and comrades play a major role in the war. Neville, Ginny, and Luna keep the DA going even after Harry has left the school, and the Order continues to fight Voldemort from behind the scenes wherever they can.

Voldemort does not understand this kind of love either—people, to him, are tools to be used, allies are to be cultivated than discarded the moment they cease to be useful. He is unable—or at least unwilling—to form real bonds with anyone.

XxXxX

Third is érōs (ρως), which is romantic or passionate love—love in the sense of “being in love.” The modern Greek word erotas means “(romantic) love”. While the term “erotic” is also derived from eros, Lewis saw it as distinct from sexuality (he calls the latter Venus, and spends time discussing sexual activity and its spiritual significance in both a pagan and a Christian sense). Eros is indifferent—it promotes appreciation of the beloved regardless of any pleasure that can be derived from them. It is not superficial, not just hormones.

One of the main problems with Harmonianism—or any other ship-centered interpretation, for that matter, but Harmonianism in particular—is that it elevates romantic love to the point where it is considered superior to all others—and not just romantic love, but a certain specific kind of romantic love. They seem to believe that not only is their “brand” of romantic love superior to all other types of interpersonal relationships, but that all other interpersonal relationships should be forgotten and discarded once one has found their “true love”—because apparently that’s what life’s all about. Harmonians seem to believe—or at least they did before HBP—that once Harry and Hermione had discovered their true love for each other, all other relationships (particularly friendships, as well as acquaintances, or even family) were supposed to fall by the wayside, as none of them had the potential to develop into romantic love and were thus “inferior”. (One wonders how Harry is supposed to defeat Voldemort if he spends all his time schtupping his girlfriend, but the Harmonians seemed to believe before HBP that their love would be so epic and powerful that it could destroy Voldemort all by itself, or that Voldemort would cease to be a problem once Harry had his love life sorted—hmm… convenient.) They are emotionally invested in this idea—this idea of “true, meaningful love” being superior to all other kinds of interpersonal relationships—to a frankly troubling degree. While romantic love is not superficial, these people stretch the idea to the extent that apparently romantic love cannot begin with or even include mutual attraction or sexual tension. One cannot help but wonder how these people fare in actual interpersonal relationships, especially with people who disagree with their interpretations.

This centering on one type of love to the neglect of all others can be a problem. Lewis realizes it, and points it out: he admits that eros can be bad because it often leads to tragedy. You could argue that this is the main point of so many tales of “star-crossed lovers”—no matter what John and Paul tell you, love is not all you need.

Lewis warns against this mindset—the danger of elevating any kind of love to the point where it supplants everything else. Love can become corrupt by presuming itself to be what it is not (“love begins to be a demon the moment he begins to be a god”). Too much of anything can be bad for you.

While Harry does not experience this love in any real sense before Voldemort is defeated (neither he nor Ginny says “I love you”, and even at the end of HBP Ginny only says she “likes” Harry a great deal), the roots are there, and so is the promise. They definitely seem to feel at least the beginnings of this toward each other, and by the time of the epilogue, they seem to have come into it. While the Harmonians seem to think that romantic love means you're all over each other all the time, the truth is that that kind of thing doesn't last forever. If real love is there, it tends to settle down to a constant, abiding love. Sure, the fire may need to be re-lit every now and then, but you don't have to be all hot and heavy all the time.

Anyway.

The promise gives Harry something to look forward to, something to keep him going. The promise of a life with Ginny—something approaching “normality”—gets him through the Long Campout, but it doesn’t consume his every thought (nor should it, really).

Harry certainly witnesses this kind of love in action—I honestly enjoy Arthur and Molly’s relationship, for example. In a way it’s like watching what Ron and Hermione might turn into given enough time (in the sense that Molly is a bit high-strung and hot-tempered wile Arthur knows how to calm her down). One could argue that he sees it between Vernon and Petunia, despite the fact that their constant concern for how they are perceived by the neighbors even seems to affect how they interact in their own home. I can see Harry wanting that kind of relationship—more the Weasleys than the Dursleys, of course—for himself.

Voldemort, again, does not understand this kind of love—again, people are tools to be used and disposed of, and if he ever was in love with anybody, it probably ended badly enough to decide he neither wanted nor needed it.

XxXxX

Last, but most definitely not least, is agápē (γάπη, called caritas in Latin). The word has been used in different ways by a variety of contemporary and ancient sources, including Biblical authors. Many have thought that this word represents divine, unconditional, self-sacrificing, active, volitional, and thoughtful love. Lewis describes this as charitable love; unconditional love towards one’s fellow man, not dependent on any lovable qualities that the loved one possesses. This is the love that brings forth caring regardless of circumstance, and Lewis regards it as the greatest of loves, considering it to be a uniquely Christian virtue. Lewis’ chapter on the subject focuses on the need of subordinating the natural loves to the love of God, who is full of charitable love. Lewis states that "He is so full, in fact, that it overflows, and He can't help but love us." Lewis metaphorically compares love with a garden, charity with the gardening utensils, the lover as the gardener, and God as the elements of nature. God's love and guidance act on our natural love (that cannot remain what it is by itself) as the sun and rain act on a garden: without either, the object (metaphorically the garden; realistically love itself) would cease to be beautiful or worthy. This is the love that is the greatest of the theological virtues. This is what John meant when saying “God is love. ( θες γάπη στίν)” This is what 1 Corinthians 13 is talking about.

But I digress. As for Harry…

Well, three words (well, three and one hyphen) come to mind: “saving-people thing.”

We see this love from the beginning of the series to the end. This is the kind of love that motivated Lily Potter to give her life for her son, and then motivated Harry to (apparently) give his own life so Voldemort would be defeated. (John 15:13—“Greater love has no one than this; that he lay down his life for his friends.”) This is self-sacrificing love, and in the Potterverse this is a very powerful thing indeed. Harry is protected by his mother’s self-sacrificing love for most of his life, and Harry’s own self-sacrificing protects his friends and comrades after he allows Voldemort to kill him.

Harry’s self-sacrificing tendencies have been pointed out by essayist and author alike numerous times over the last few years, but not many of them realize that it’s not a personality flaw, but rather a virtue. (Least of all Hermione, who not only put a name to it but was the first in the series to be on the receiving end of it—if not for Harry’s “saving-people thing” she would be ded from troll. Seriously.) Many authors seem to think it’s a problem he should get past, which shows that they really are missing the point. Harry not caring about what happens to himself as long as those he cares for are okay—yes, he has a tendency to blame himself and think himself solely responsible for their safety, but if nothing else his heart is in the right place.

Voldemort does not understand this kind of love—he sees it as cowardly, as Harry letting people throw themselves between him and those who would do him harm; in his belief that nothing is worse than death, he is unable to understand why someone would give their life protecting someone else. To a certain extent he is unable even to understand the kind of devotion the more loyal and/or fanatical Death Eaters feel toward him—and it ends up biting him in the ass when he takes it for granted.

XxXxX

In summation, when fanits screech about how it was supposed to be “love” that won the war, it proves they’re not reading between the lines. And this is because to them, there is only one definition for “love”—or at least only one that actually matters. 

Love is definitely involved—but, again, it’s not all about romance, sex, and babies. In the end, friendship, family, camaraderie, and charity won the day—the good guys won not because of some superior kind of magic or style of fighting, but because they care for one another—and there were people who were willing to put everything on the line for those they cared for.

It was one thing the OP movie got right—the good guys did indeed have something Voldemort didn’t: something worth fighting for.

But that's just my view of things. What do you think?

 

comments: Poke a delusional shipper Previous Entry Add to Memories Tell a Friend Next Entry


[info]julianrain
Link:(Link)
Time:2009-05-10 03:56 pm (UTC)
Back in 2005 or 2006 I read a very analytical essay about the way Harmonians see relationships. I can't remember where, but it made many of the same points you do.

I did find both your observations and the old essay's to be pretty accurate in depicting Harmonian behavior.
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[info]bigi
Link:(Link)
Time:2009-05-10 05:21 pm (UTC)
Could it be Angua9's essay What's So Funny About Peace, Love and Understanding?
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[info]julianrain
Link:(Link)
Time:2009-05-10 05:29 pm (UTC)
Yes, that's the one.
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[info]lakme
Link:(Link)
Time:2009-05-11 05:16 am (UTC)
That is very interesting. It makes me wonder what Harmonians would think of classic "bickering" couples like, say, Elizabeth and Mr. Darcy.
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(Anonymous)
Link:(Link)
Time:2009-05-13 08:48 pm (UTC)
I've known Harmonians who thought Draco/Hermione would be OK for that reason. I think the idea is that it's OK for them to bicker because Draco is rich and hawt and "snarky" so he still deserves Hermione; whereas Ron is a penniless slob so who gives a feck ...

~ fullmoonjane @ LJ
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[info]ikabod
Link:(Link)
Time:2009-05-11 01:34 pm (UTC)
Could it be Angua9's essay What's So Funny About Peace, Love and Understanding?

Classic essay, and really spot on. Anyone who has spent any time on Harmonian boards will recognize the patterns Angua writes of immediately.
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[info]riah_chan
Link:(Link)
Time:2009-05-10 04:00 pm (UTC)
This is a wonderful essay! I'm sort of drugged up right now so my thoughts are scattered but this was a great read.
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[info]beccastareyes
Link:(Link)
Time:2009-05-10 04:00 pm (UTC)
I wouldn't necessarily break down 'love' into Lewis's categories, but I agree. The fact Harry loves and is loved by so many people* in so many ways, and the fact these people are also loving and loved, gives them the ability to work together to help defeat Voldemort. Harry may have been the point, but he had everyone behind him and providing support -- both physical and emotional.

One thing you didn't mention is the Malfoys. One of the things that saves Harry's butt is that he is able to see that, no matter what he thinks of them as people, they love one another as a family. So, when he tells Narcissa that Draco is alive, safe and out of the way, that causes her to both repay him and decide that her family is better off with Voldemort gone, and say that Harry is dead when he's not. It's not Harry's ability to feel love, but his ability to understand it, and the Malfoys' ability to feel it, that helps him there.

* Sirius, the Weasleys, Dumbledore, McGonagall, Ron, Hermione, Ginny, Neville, Luna, the DA, the Order...
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[info]mmanurere
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Time:2009-05-10 05:00 pm (UTC)
The C.S. Lewis "division" of "love" is, FTR, a profoundly Anglocentric process. It's not so much that the Greek language has "four different meanings for 'love'" so much as Greek having four different words/concepts which, in some cases, may all be translated into the English word "love". The storge/philia/eros/agape meme is popular because it allows "love" to be weasel-worded more freely under the linguistic cover -- and makes the suggestion that there is a "real meaning of 'love'" or that concepts dictate reality less obviously bullshit.

That said, yeah, I think you're quite right about the confusion among HP 'shippers of all sorts over just what sort of "love" is so important in Harry's (extraordinarily normal) saving-the-world story. Given the breadth and depth of relationships and loyalties of all sorts that Harry develops over the course of the series...yeah, I'm not sure why it would be so popular to assume that romantic love would be the key point. (Actually, I have a hypothesis, but I'd need to do a great deal of forum-diving to get a better sense of whether it works and I really don't want to do the amount of drinking that it would take to get me through five years' worth of rabid 'shipper forums.)
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(Anonymous)
Link:(Link)
Time:2009-05-10 11:21 pm (UTC)
The C.S. Lewis "division" of "love" is, FTR, a profoundly Anglocentric process. It's not so much that the Greek language has "four different meanings for 'love'" so much as Greek having four different words/concepts which, in some cases, may all be translated into the English word "love".

Except that the ancient Greeks did in fact use 'philia' in all these contexts; it is a very wide-ranging word, which can cover almost any modern English use of 'love', from loving one's country to loving strawberries. 'Philia' is used of family affection: 'storge', a rather obscure word which means something like 'care', has been straitjacketed into standing for this kind of love by modern theorists who want a word for each category. 'Philia' isn't actually used of sexual passion - that's 'eros' - but one can speak of having philia as well as eros for one's lover. 'Agape' is a post-classical word, and seems to have been deliberately co-opted by early Christians to stand for the kind of love they were interested in, but 'philia' is used in the New Testament as well, at least without any obvious differentiation. So I don't think it's particularly Anglocentric; there's a long history of putting these things together.
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[info]quantumreality
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Time:2009-05-11 12:23 am (UTC)
Harry experiences storgē from and towards the people who have become his family. (Little side note: some of you may remember one of the possible titles passed around for Book 6—Harry Potter and the Pillar of Storgē, which is now quite humorous in hindsight. Hell, even JKR thought it was funny.)


Liked that one, by the way. :)

I read through the analysis piece here, and I think the points are well-made; the problem of having only the single word for a very broad range of concepts ("love") does create a kind of situation of cross-purposes where people who believe it must be romantic love that would save the day end up finding that JKR has employed a different concept of it - almost a totally abstract one, of a love for humanity as a whole - to show Harry's true importance as the one who will defeat Voldemort.

Romantic love is a bit too narrow of a concept to really fill the bill, and in any case I think JKR demonstrated it has its own flaws; consider Dumbledore/Grindelwald, or for that matter, Bellatrix/Rodolphus (*shudder*), or Bellatrix/Voldemort (*double shudder*). It's a very much eye-of-the-beholder thing, whereas the broader kind, Harry's saving-people thing, as Hermione pots it, encompasses what is needed to match Voldemort's particular brand of hate and enmity.
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[info]shay_guy
Link:(Link)
Time:2009-05-11 02:52 am (UTC)
Do the other kinds of love have flaws and pitfalls like romantic love's?

Also, I'm reminded of the manga Monster, which starred a surgeon who also had a "saving-people thing," and contrasted him with a villain who basically had a "destroying-people thing." (This guy was a handsome, charismatic orphan, like another young villain we know, but he was also a self-made orphan, and he didn't just kill -- he would make fifty people kill each other without lifting a finger himself, or get a recovering alcoholic to go back on the bottle just before shoving him off a roof. And there was more than one occasion when he faced someone with a gun and just smiled and pointed to his forehead.)
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[info]quantumreality
Link:(Link)
Time:2009-05-11 03:12 am (UTC)
Hmm. Point taken. I think a better way of saying what I was trying to say is that for the purposes of understanding why shipping isn't the central key to Harry Potter is that romantic love can, in principle, be between any two (or more, as squicky as that may seem to some) people be they good guys or bad guys (JKR did write these books as a children's series, at least nominally).

It takes a different kind of love to be effective against someone who has consciously rejected the common bonds of humanity, such as against Voldemort.

Does that help?
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(Anonymous)
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Time:2009-05-11 04:15 pm (UTC)
I don't think it's just love for humanity as a whole: Harry is impelled by his love for various individuals, such as his parents, Sirius, Ron and Hermione - and also Ginny, though that's not emphasised at the cost of the others. It's interesting how many characters are 'saved' in some way or another by their love for an individual - Dumbledore's for Ariana, Regulus' for Kreacher, Snape's for Lily, Narcissa's for Draco - though in only one of those cases is the love romantic.
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[info]angakkuq
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Time:2009-05-11 04:16 pm (UTC)
You call Snape's "love" for Lily "romantic"?!
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(Anonymous)
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Time:2009-05-11 05:18 pm (UTC)
Whatever would you call Snape's feelings towards Lily, Regulus' love for Kreacher was definitely romantic.
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[info]angakkuq
Link:(Link)
Time:2009-05-11 05:19 pm (UTC)
I would call Snape's feelings toward Lily stalkerish and creepy.
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(Anonymous)
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Time:2009-05-11 06:53 pm (UTC)
They definitely had that element to them but I think there had to be some pure affection/love for him to be able to conjure a Patronus from memories of her. That charm doesn't seem to work unless there are genuinely happy memories to use.
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[info]bigi
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Time:2009-05-11 06:53 pm (UTC)
And that was me!
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(Anonymous)
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Time:2009-05-31 02:33 am (UTC)
How does Snape being stalkerish and creepy have *anything* to do with whether his feelings were romantic in nature? 'Cause they sure weren't platonic.
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[info]quantumreality
Link:(Link)
Time:2009-05-13 05:36 am (UTC)
You made me have to enact an emergency clean-up around my keyboard as I was drinking 7-Up at the time. :P
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[info]esclaramonde
Link:(Link)
Time:2009-05-11 07:54 pm (UTC)
Eh, I would, in the sense that he loved her in a way that demanded a romantic relationship. It wasn't pure and sacrificial and asexual and it wasn't platonic. It wasn't romantic in the sense that I'd want it for myself.
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[info]lakme
Link:(Link)
Time:2009-05-11 05:15 am (UTC)
Very good essay. It's also interesting how the H/Hr shippers tend to buy into the idea that someone can "deserve" someone.
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[info]angakkuq
Link:(Link)
Time:2009-05-11 05:32 am (UTC)
I think that for Harmonians it's all about "deserving" someone. And quite a bit of Hermione-worship and projection. The women seem to see Hermione as themselves and want Harry to be their perfect guy (completely and totally whipped), while the men see themselves as Harry and project the image of their perfect ideal girl onto Hermione.
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[info]julianrain
Link:(Link)
Time:2009-05-11 06:19 am (UTC)
And alchemy. Mustn't forget alchemy.
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[info]angakkuq
Link:(Link)
Time:2009-05-11 06:25 am (UTC)
And toast.
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[info]ikabod
Link:(Link)
Time:2009-05-11 01:45 pm (UTC)
What I think is interesting in the Harmonian view (particularly among the females) is the notion that Harry sort of owes it to Hermione to fall in love with her because of all she does for him. Like love is a reward or payback for services rendered. This is somewhat disturbing for the feminist in me because it suggests that the proper woman should devote herself completely and totally to her man in exchange for his love. The suggestion is then that Harry is somehow wrong for not falling in love for Hermione, because she clearly only exists for him.

I don't know...I guess I just find the Harmonian idea of "true love" rather creepy. It is insular and all consuming. There is no room for any one else and the couple becomes a single unit, not two flawed individuals with other thoughts and interests.
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(Anonymous)
Link:(Link)
Time:2009-05-12 03:46 am (UTC)
Yeah. It always bugged me, too. It's the Twilight idea of love: that romantic love is the only kind of love that deserves that label. I think Harmonians also have this trite Hollywood idea that only the "hero" and "heroine" deserve each other; that the "sidekick" never, ever gets the main lady. Rather than reading the love-hate byplay between Ron and Hermione that cued me, at least, from the second book on that they made a good couple, they read romance into Harry and Hermione's interactions because "that was the way things were supposed to be." I was quite frankly surprised when I joined the online fandom and found out there were people who thought Harry and Hermione were supposed to have a romantic relationship; I had never, EVER thought of them as a potential couple. Their friendship read so much like my friendship with a close male friend that I always knew they would be "just friends." I actually wonder if Harmonians have ever had a close platonic friendship with a guy; they seem utterly unable to grasp the concept as it is embodied in Harry and Hermione's friendship.
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[info]steph313
Link:(Link)
Time:2009-05-12 02:02 pm (UTC)
I actually wonder if Harmonians have ever had a close platonic friendship with a guy; they seem utterly unable to grasp the concept as it is embodied in Harry and Hermione's friendship.

I find it doubtful. I see most of them as the type that only even get close to men because they think they're cute. Men and women aren't supposed to be friends; the only thing friendship is good for is acting as a stepping stone to romance.

I still remember reading one Harmoanian account where she had her husband read HP and was SHOCKED when he didn't see H/Hr as a mirror of their relationship. His response was something like, "Nah, Hermione reminds me of a girl I was friends with in college, but there's no romance there..." and she was flat out insulted. Not only doesn't her husband not see H/Hr's epic love, but he claims some random friend is his Hermione!! lol.
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[info]steph313
Link:(Link)
Time:2009-05-12 02:03 pm (UTC)
*I see most of them as the type that only even get close to men/women because they think they're cute.

I can't discount the male Harmoanians.
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[info]julianrain
Link:(Link)
Time:2009-05-12 02:06 pm (UTC)
Are there many? Besides vance?
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[info]quantumreality
Link:(Link)
Time:2009-05-13 05:37 am (UTC)
pstibbons


D:
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[info]angakkuq
Link:(Link)
Time:2009-05-13 05:43 am (UTC)
No, he's just a Hermione-worshiper who wanks over pics of Emma Watson.
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(Anonymous)
Link:(Link)
Time:2009-05-14 07:45 am (UTC)
madderbrad ? I'm pretty sure he's male.

I hate how they think a girl has to deserve Harry's love. Like seriously ?

stumps101 from lj
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[info]antosha
Link:(Link)
Time:2009-05-19 12:01 am (UTC)
Brad is indeed male. Very.

They think that way because Harry is the capital-H-Hero. He is supposed to be perfect and his beloved should therefore must be perfect as well; she is his anima, his shakti, the yang to his yin.

o.O

I had a long series of conversations with Brad (who likes my Harry/Ginny/Luna fics for reasons that I think perplex us both) back pre-DH and had a realization: he was a Superman fan as a kid, who liked his heroes superhuma—Perfect—while I had been a Spiderman/Batman fan, who liked his heroes fallible, human and a little neurotic. He kept expecting Harry to turn out to be Superman-in-Clark-Kent's-clothing, while I had assumed—correctly, as it turned out—that Harry would be more like Peter Parker or Bruce Wayne: putting on the mantle of power, but remaining the same confused, human kid he'd always been. The two Unforgivables that Harry cast in DH were the kiss of death for a number of these folks: they're Unforgivable Curses! If you cast them, then you are Evil! You can't still be the Hero! Get thee behind me, Satan!

I, on the other hand, was sure that JKR put those two curses into the last book to show just how tempting that kind of power can be—and also to set the reader up to expect Harry to cast the Killing Curse at Voldemort at the end—a resolution that I personally would have found deeply disappointing. But by the time Harry reaches the final showdown, he's achieved a kind of apotheosis, and all of the love that he feels, as laid out so ably above, leaves him incapable of performing such an act. Even as the utter lack of that emotion leaves Voldemort utterly incapable of thinking of any other solution to his problem.

There were a LOT of Super!Harry fans who were really disappointed in the last two or three books. When Harry (and Hermione) started showing signs of not being a) incredibly studly and b) morally less than absolute, the series became anathema—and many of them blamed it all on that Second Eve, that Whore of Babylon, Ginevra Molly Weasley.
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[info]lakme
Link:(Link)
Time:2009-05-11 05:29 am (UTC)
Also, I hate to psycho-analyze people without having met them, but I often wonder if the reason Harmonians cling to their belief is due to cognitive dissonance--namely, the idea that the more you invest in something, the more you will be likely to convince yourself that it is worthwhile. I know that "shipping" doesn't seem like a huge investment, but you have to consider all of the essays they wrote, all of the fights they probably got in, all of the fanfic and fanart they did, etc.

There's also the confirmation bias. Of course, this could apply to all "ships."
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[info]angakkuq
Link:(Link)
Time:2009-05-11 05:33 am (UTC)
Wouldn't surprise me.
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[info]hitwoman
Link:(Link)
Time:2009-05-11 05:37 am (UTC)
For some of them, 'shipping really was a huge investment. Much of the extreme hurt and bitterness I read after the last book came right out talked about how much they'd "invested" in the books, and all the different ways they'd been lead to believe that H/Hr was the end game 'ship. The obvious inference, of course, is that they wouldn't have put so much time and energy into the 'ship if all the signs weren't there. Then again they had to put an incredible amount of time and energy just into finding those "signs" and ignoring the thousand clues leading to R/Hr as an organic outcome.
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[info]ikabod
Link:(Link)
Time:2009-05-11 01:59 pm (UTC)
I often wonder if the reason Harmonians cling to their belief is due to cognitive dissonance--namely, the idea that the more you invest in something, the more you will be likely to convince yourself that it is worthwhile.

I think this is true, and Harmonians (or other shippers) have not cornered the market on it. (I'm looking at you, Snapefen.) I think lots of fans set themselves up for disappointment. They spent so much time arguing for their POV (whether it was a ship or some pet theory) that they ended up investing their egos into it. When proven wrong, it wasn't just some little theory or plot point anymore. They were wrong - their intelligence and value system was challenged because they had made it about that.

Instead of shipping being a fun diversion to try to predict the upcoming plot turns it became about defintions of "real love" and needing to be vindicated and proving that they were not wasting their time by putting so much of themselves into something that would never happen. That's why JKR had to be wrong in the end; because if she wasn't wrong, then they were and not just about whether Harry would shag Hermione, but about their whole value system. You can tell because they continue to go on about what should have been, about how JKR didn't know what she was writing, about how they were really right and everyone else just can't see it.
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[info]pyratejenni
Link:(Link)
Time:2009-05-11 04:29 pm (UTC)
They were wrong - their intelligence and value system was challenged because they had made it about that.


This is the answer I got from vanceone in a nutshell, when I asked why it was so important to him that the H/Hr be the One True Ship of the books.
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[info]julianrain
Link:(Link)
Time:2009-05-11 04:44 pm (UTC)
At the same time they keep insisting that there is no 'right' and 'wrong' and that 'shipping is simply a matter of personal preference. Cognitive dissonance indeed.
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[info]esclaramonde
Link:(Link)
Time:2009-05-11 07:49 pm (UTC)
Yeah, I think the real trouble is that people don't/can't differentiate between "not good" and "not what I wanted/was expecting". Or they confuse them, or something. (Similarly, I think people get confused between "has plot elements/characterizations I like" and "good".)

it became about definitions of "real love" and needing to be vindicated

Yes, exactly. It really turned into arguing about the life philosophy of arguing couples vs. the truest of true love*, just as Marauder discussions seem to turn into "Jocks vs. Nerds - where do YOU stand??"

* One of my favorite memories of the ship wars is C---- insisting that 1 Corinthians 13 was irrefutable evidence of what love is, regardless of one's feelings on the Bible
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[info]ikabod
Link:(Link)
Time:2009-05-11 10:14 pm (UTC)
* One of my favorite memories of the ship wars is C---- insisting that 1 Corinthians 13 was irrefutable evidence of what love is, regardless of one's feelings on the Bible.

Sucks for Hindus.
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(Anonymous)
Link:(Link)
Time:2009-05-12 03:58 am (UTC)
Wow. C---- seems to have profoundly missed the point of those verses, since they apply to all kinds of love, from romantic love to filial love to the love God has for his children. They were guidlines for what love should be, not a dictionary definition or "irrefutable evidence" of what love is. Looks like somebody's been thumping on their Bible rather than reading it. I suppose she was trying to say Paul wrote Corinthians to prove that Hermione and Harry had Twoo Wuv that was meant to be...
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(Anonymous)
Link:(Link)
Time:2009-05-18 09:12 pm (UTC)
I remember one of the mods saying that her 'entire value system and belief in what love is supposed to be were destroyed' because the ship failed to launch. Personally I find this to be utterly sad/pathetic/what have you. If something like a work of fiction can trash you beliefs because it conflicts so much with 'how things are supposed to be' then maybe that value system is seriously flawed. It's almost like the hoopla over Dan Brown's books.

Solace
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[info]ikabod
Link:(Link)
Time:2009-05-18 09:30 pm (UTC)
I remember one of the mods saying that her 'entire value system and belief in what love is supposed to be were destroyed' because the ship failed to launch.

I had read one once who said something along the lines of 'her faith in ever having a real relationship was destroyed'. And then they wondered why the whole Internet made fun of them.
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[info]antosha
Link:(Link)
Time:2009-05-18 11:43 pm (UTC)
Very interesting and well-reasoned.

And it got me a link back to [info]angua9's classic essay, which is an added bonus! ;-)

A thought that occurred to me just now, apropos of nothing: the kind of Eros-as-the-highest-Love idea subscribed to by the Harmonians (and many other shippers—H/G and R/Hr types among them) is very much that espoused by the troubadours and the authors of the early Arthurian romances in the thirteenth and fourteenth centuries—the first flower of Western Romanticism. Of course, the point of all of those songs and tales was that the lovers couldn't ever consummate their relationship, because to do so would have been to reduce it nothing but pure eros. Lancelot and Guenevere's love was perfect... until they actually betrayed Arthur. Still... hmmm...
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