![[icon]](http://www.journalfen.net/userpic/67365/9138) |
The HMS STFU - Snape is like Eliza Bennett in a way
|
| | Subject: | Snape is like Eliza Bennett in a way | | Time: | 12:16 pm |
|
| Silver Ink Pot/rattlesnakeroot never fails to bring the lulz:
I'm going to ramble a bit about Jane Austen and Snape:
I see Harry as more of an Emma, and I believe JKR even mentioned Emma as an inspiration. Harry is naive and sure of himself like Emma. And they both make mistakes have to eat some crow in order to grow up and gain wisdom. It's the people around them who have the drama although they do their part to set things in motion that they don't really understand.
And that's where the big difference with Snape comes in. He is also full of confidence as a boy when he gets on the train to Hogwarts, but unlike Harry he loses his best friend and gains alot of bad friends. And then Snape's life goes downhill from there.
You could say that Snape is something of an Eliza Bennett when he is young, even though she has a much happier ending.
In Pride and Prejudice, Eliza constantly finds herself at a social disadvantage due to her embarrassing family and their lack of money. People are constantly putting her down for reasons that have nothing to do with her own worth - just as Slytherins are dismissed as evil, or Snape is taunted for his nose or gray underwear. Eliza is brilliant, but only her father seems aware of it, just as Slughorn seems to be the only one who was aware of Snape's intelligence.
When Eliza holds her head high, she is thought to be getting above her station in life and bullies like Mr. Bingley's sisters have to put her in her place. Eliza is also very loyal refuses to believe all the bad things she is hearing about her friend Mr. Wickham, just as Snape won't believe what Lily says about Mulciber. So Lily plays the Mr. Darcy role in having this dark knowledge about Mulciber. But sadly, it's as if Darcy had already fallen in love with Miss Bingley and left Eliza standing there with no one left but Mr. Wickham. Yes, I think that analogy works. Lily had already fallen for James and left Snape without any friends except Mulciber and the other Slytherins.
Both Snape and Eliza Bennett have to learn from hard experience just what bad people their so-called friends can be. I think that's why Eliza is a more realistic protagonist than the girl in Mansfield Park who is never fooled by anyone, and why Snape is sometimes more appealing than Harry. Sure, Harry is misled by people, but he is blessed with friends who never let him down and never betray him. He also never has to prove himself to anyone - they just accept him, while Snape feels he has to impress people by becoming a Death Eater, while Eliza is pressured to act a certain way to "catch" a rich husband.
To wrap up my rambling: Of course, Eliza never sinks to the same level of Wickham, but then Snape also avoids using Unforgivables unlike Mulciber. Snape avoids prison thanks to Dumbledore, but I believe Snape also gave information that landed Mulciber in jail, which shows how much he changed from when he was a kid. The main thing is that both Eliza and Snape make a choice - Eliza refuses to either be a snob or to throw her life away like her sister Lydia, who runs away with Wickham. Something much worse happens to Snape when he tells the Prophecy to Voldemort and lives to regret it, but he also manages to redefine himself as a good guy while remaining the Half-Blood Prince from Spinner's End.
ETA: One more thing . . . Eliza is wracked with guilt over the shotgun marriage of Lydia to Wickham. She feels responsible because of secret knowledge she had of Wickham which she never told anyone. That's a nifty literary parallel to Snape. Eliza couldn't control what Lydia did, or what Wickham did, but she still blames herself and only confiding in Mr. Darcy solves the problem. | comments: Poke a delusional shipper     |
| | Obviously, she missed the part where Snape is a total dillweed and Lizzy is kinda awesome. *facepalm* | | (Reply to this) (Thread) |
![[info]](http://www.journalfen.net/img/userinfo.gif) tehrin | | Subject: | Edited because of glaring typo | | Link: | (Link) | | Time: | 2009-06-19 09:28 am (UTC) |
|
| Every time I see a Harry Potter/Jane Austen essay, I both kill a kitten with a chainsaw (this is not intended as the usual kill a kitten analogy but as something horrific like Bonzai Kittens, ok, thanks?) and wonder if it is the only exposure these people have ever had to classic literature. It's not like there is a short list of authors to choose from. I mean, bitch please, I have only seen a handful of Harry Potter/Brontë crazy essays out there. I am sure they can come up with just as wacky, off-base comparisons to other works. Where are the Snapemione Lolita essays? Or As You Like It essays? You could pin titles to a wall and pin the tail on a donkey then write a lit comparison essay and it would probably make more sense than 90% of the Austen essays (I am being excessively generous with that random percentage there).
In the infamous words of Charlie Brown, "Good Grief!" Sadly, as I have no Charlie Brown icon, Aang from Avatar will have to suffice in carrying my sentiments in visual form. | | (Reply to this) (Thread) |
esclaramonde | | Subject: | Re: Edited because of glaring typo | | Link: | (Link) | | Time: | 2009-06-19 01:31 pm (UTC) |
|
| | I'm pretty sure most of these are based on secondhand descriptions from other HP/Austen essays, and/or one viewing of a movie version. | | (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread) |
sandyclaws68 | | Subject: | Re: Edited because of glaring typo | | Link: | (Link) | | Time: | 2009-06-19 02:02 pm (UTC) |
|
| It's not a Charlie Brown icon, but it is Peanuts inspired.
And appropriate. :D | | (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread) |
quantumreality | | Subject: | Re: Edited because of glaring typo | | Link: | (Link) | | Time: | 2009-06-19 02:02 pm (UTC) |
|
| I'd be willing to bet most of the Mr. Darcy comparisons come because fanfic writers think barbed snark = cool. Never mind that Snape has acted his mental age a few times and cracked some mean jokes, or been unutterably petty.
Also, Lolita Snapemione? Given how creepy the guy was in Lolita, I can see why the essay-writers who use literary comparisons want to be selective about what they wanna use.
Le sigh. | | (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread) |
| He also never has to prove himself to anyone - they just accept him
...Wait, did I misread the bit where the public is convinced for entire books that Harry is either a crazy, a liar or evil? Sure, it all ends well, but there's this whole thing where Harry has to find evidence and, you know, prove he's telling the truth.
Also, WTF is this about Snape not using Unforgivables? | | (Reply to this) (Thread) |
| | I think she's got some larger viewpoint/argument about how Snape never uses Unforgivables ... unless he has to because Dumbledore forces him! I think usually this stance ends up meaning that Snape isn't really a Death Eater or isn't "as bad" as the rest of them and that, since this doesn't relate at all, James is more like a Death Eater than Snape because James probably used Unforgivables all the time even though it never actually says that anywhere. I think. I'm sure I've seen her argue various variations of this multiple times. | | (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread) |
| So, the argument that completely ignores that Snape was a Death Eater until he realised they were going to kill someone he actually liked? Because I can't see him getting away with playing nice guy in the DEs for several years.
Seriously, for people who go on about realism and all, they don't seem to get the concept of morally grey. Or, you know, Snape's redemption actually being significant because he actually did things he needed redeeming for. | | (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread) |
| Seriously, for people who go on about realism and all, they don't seem to get the concept of morally grey. Or, you know, Snape's redemption actually being significant because he actually did things he needed redeeming for.
This this this.
These sort of fen seriously need to investigate the concept of redemption, of hitting rock bottom before turning around, etc. Simply having all of your negative aspects explained away doesn't "redeem" someone; doing something to make up for the negative aspects is what has to happen, and even then it may not be enough.
We had James presented to us, at first, as the perfect dead-father-on-a-pedestal. Then Harry found that he had feet of clay. Okay, James is done, you can stick a fork in him. We found out about his good and not-so-good sides. It isn't necessary to keep piling on with the bad stuff. He wasn't perfect, we get it. But the Snapefen keep harping on anything negative about him and sometimes just make stuff up (we know NOTHING about James and Unforgivables) while simultaneously trying to turn Snape into the second coming (because that Potter brat wasn't really "The Chosen One", you know--it was Snape).
They do the same thing with demonizing Harry, Dumbledore, the Weasleys, etc. It's all whitewashing the DEs all the time and piling on with characters we KNOW aren't perfect and shouldn't want to be, since they're more interesting as well-rounded characters. I'd be a lot less miffed with Slytherfen in general if all they wanted to do was show some well-roundedness in those characters, instead of trying to make them all-good and making out the non-Slytherins to be all-evil. They really don't get the idea that JKR didn't create a black-and-white world; I think it wasn't simplistic enough for them, so they had to strip away the complications. Oddly enough, most children who read the books are better able to deal with the shades of grey than these so-called "adult" readers.
Also, these idiots need to STEP AWAY FROM JANE AUSTEN. NOW.
| | (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread) |
| You've said pretty much all of it. :) Have a cookie. :)
The only thing that I might add is that I do not understand why there is this intense need to 'rehabilitate' Snape and make him the centerpiece of JKR's work.
There has been literature before, during, and after the Harry Potter era in which the teenagers step in and save the day. Hell, look at John Christopher's Tripod series. I don't think the lot of it combined has ever created so much wank as HP. I agree that the "Expelliarmus" ending seems kind of a weak endpoint to all the build-up in the HP books, but it exemplifies what seems to be the case with Harry: with a lot of luck and help from his friends, he manages to pull through and accomplish what he believes needs to be done.
[ Sure, I'd have liked to see a badass!training!powerfulspells!Harry, but that's what fanfic is for. ;) ]
It's almost as though the Snapefen unconsciously adopt his biases and thoughts regarding Harry and feel they need to prove Harry is not worthy of being the centerpiece of the novels and that he doesn't deserve the accolades that probably were his after the events of DH.
They have a weak case to make over the fact that it was likely Lily's behavior that interacted with the prophecy and preserved Harry's existence against the day when he could truly 'vanquish' Voldemort, yet Harry was the one feted over it.
But that said, subsequent events weren't written the way they presumably wanted it to happen; tough luck.
| | (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread) |
| I'm going to ramble a bit about Jane Austen and Snape:
Why? Ya know, just once I'd like to see them write about something other than Austen. How 'bout a completely irrelevant essay about how Snape is really a lot like Boo Radley?
And that's where the big difference with Snape comes in. He is also full of confidence as a boy when he gets on the train to Hogwarts...
Was he? Really? "Full of confidence"? That's not the impression that I got.
but unlike Harry he loses his best friend and gains alot of bad friends. And then Snape's life goes downhill from there.
At least there's some recognition that Snape had some friends and that they were bad, but of course, it's Lily's fault that he had to fall in with those "bad friends" at all. (Let's ignore that fact that he made those "bad friends" while still hanging out with Lily. Let's pretend he was driven to those bad friends because he had no other choice after Lily dumped him.)
You could say that Snape is something of an Eliza Bennett when he is young, even though she has a much happier ending.
You could, but that's what I'd call a radical interpretation of the text.
just as Slytherins are dismissed as evil, or Snape is taunted for his nose or gray underwear.
And his love of the Dark Arts. Let's not forget that.
Eliza is brilliant, but only her father seems aware of it, just as Slughorn seems to be the only one who was aware of Snape's intelligence.
Really? It wasn't Snape that Slughorn kept going on about was it? When does Slughorn ever indicate his awareness of Snape's intelligence?
Eliza is also very loyal refuses to believe all the bad things she is hearing about her friend Mr. Wickham, just as Snape won't believe what Lily says about Mulciber.
Bzuh? Snape seemed perfectly aware of what Mulciber did - he just chose to rationalize it. Is this really how the text reads through Snape-colored glasses?
Yes, I think that analogy works. Lily had already fallen for James and left Snape without any friends except Mulciber and the other Slytherins.
Sigh. Fail.
Sure, Harry is misled by people, but he is blessed with friends who never let him down and never betray him.
And I'm pretty sure part of that is due to the fact that Harry never called Hermione a mudblood.
He (Harry) also never has to prove himself to anyone - they just accept him,
Except for when, you know, they don't. Stop re-reading the "Prince's Tale" and go back and re-read CoS, GoF, and OotP. I know they are not as Snapetastic, but give it a try.
but then Snape also avoids using Unforgivables unlike Mulciber.
We know this how, now? I guess he may not have had to use Unforgivables when he could just make up his own nasty curses...
but I believe Snape also gave information that landed Mulciber in jail, which shows how much he changed from when he was a kid.
She "believes" this. Does she have any canon evidence to back it up or are we now officially dealing with a Snape-based religion in which we must take things on faith?
ETA: One more thing . . . Eliza is wracked with guilt over the shotgun marriage of Lydia to Wickham. She feels responsible because of secret knowledge she had of Wickham which she never told anyone. That's a nifty literary parallel to Snape. Eliza couldn't control what Lydia did, or what Wickham did, but she still blames herself and only confiding in Mr. Darcy solves the problem.
I got nothin'.
| | (Reply to this) (Thread) |
| (Anonymous) | | Subject: | Austen!fail | | Link: | (Link) | | Time: | 2009-06-19 01:22 pm (UTC) |
|
| Eliza refuses to either be a snob or to throw her life away like her sister Lydia
... What is she characterizing as "refusing to be a snob"?
Eliza couldn't control what Lydia did, or what Wickham did, but she still blames herself
But she just admitted that Elizabeth had secret knowledge of Wickham's suck! Telling people about it might have stopped Lydia from running off with him, or caused the Forsters to keep her away from him! | | (Reply to this) (Thread) |
| | It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a single man in possession of a good fortune, must be in want of a Snape. | | (Reply to this) (Thread) |
| | It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a single man in possession of a good fortune, must be in want of a lion. | | (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread) |
| Oh, for the love of. . .
PUT DOWN THE JANE AUSTEN, AND STEP AWAY FROM THE COMPUTER.
Now, before you hurt yourself. | | (Reply to this) (Thread) |
| IIRC the person who keeps calling Elizabeth Bennett 'Eliza' is her enemy, Miss Bingley. Her close friends and family all call her 'Lizzy'.
Well, at least it's a change from comparing Snape to Darcy, though I can't say it's an innovation that particularly flies. It's clear rattlesnakeroot isn't all that familiar with Austen, because she overexaggerates about things:
People are constantly putting Elizabeth Bennett down - er, no. The majority of characters like and admire her.
Elizabeth learns from hard experience how bad her friends are: she's disappointed in Charlotte Lucas's marriage to Mr Collins, and mistaken in Whickham. That's about it. As to loyally refusing to listen to bad things about Whickham - well that's much of the crux of the plot.
More funny is the stuff on Snape bouncing with confidence on his first trip to Hogwarts. Funny, I never read that version. I got a diffident boy with few social skills who was actually backed up and defended by Lily (who was confident and socially well-integrated). The other great lol is the statement that Snape never used Unforgiveables. As a Russian history geek, it's like me insisting that Ivan the Terrible never resorted to torture.
I clearly lack the password to the alternative Amazon where you can buy all these fanit friendly versions of everything. | | (Reply to this) (Thread) |
lakme | | Link: | (Link) | | Time: | 2009-06-20 01:31 am (UTC) |
|
| Right, the fact that Lizzie's loyalty to her friends to the point of believing Wickham over Darcy is referred to as PREJUDICE leads me to believe it's a bad thing.
You're right, btw. Only Caroline Bingley calls her Eliza. | | (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread) |
| Actually, Charlotte calls her Eliza, too.
"My overhearings were more to the purpose than yours, Eliza," said Charlotte. "Mr. Darcy is not so well worth listening to as his friend, is he?—poor Eliza!—to be only just tolerable."
So does Sir William Lucas, and the other Lucases, in addition to Miss Bingley. It's only in the 1995 movie that Caroline is the only person who refers to Elizabeth as Eliza.
But in any case, it's certainly not the default name for her, or even the default nickname. The narrator continually refers to her as Elizabeth and only Elizabeth; her family all call her Lizzy (and it IS Lizzy with a y, not Lizzie-- that drives me CRAZY).
So it's still highly annoying.
*uses her only Austen icon on JF* | | (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread) |
| Eh, it's all good. I just figured, since we're snarking a technicality, we should get the technicality right. ;) To quote Lizzy herself-- "We all love to instruct, though we can teach only what is not worth knowing." :D
I'm super-duper sensitive to mistakes with P&P, anyway-- I've read it, quite literally, 200 times. I think that why I have such a hard time watching the most recent movie adaptation-- I know *exactly* where they're deviating from the book, and if I can't see a good reason for it. . . grrrr. | | (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread) |
lakme | | Link: | (Link) | | Time: | 2009-06-21 01:48 am (UTC) |
|
| | Haha, I may not remember as many details as you do, but the 2004 version makes me want to stab something. | | (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread) |
| | I freely admit I've never read Austen, so I'm curious as to where they get that comparison and whether or not it's justified (or even a good thing). | | (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread) |
lakme | | Link: | (Link) | | Time: | 2009-06-20 01:28 am (UTC) |
|
| I think that's why Eliza is a more realistic protagonist than the girl in Mansfield Park who is never fooled by anyone
As someone who loves Fanny the most of all Austen heroines and thinks that she is totally underrated, may I say SCREW YOU to this person D: | | (Reply to this) (Thread) |
lakme | | Link: | (Link) | | Time: | 2009-06-20 01:36 am (UTC) |
|
| Love the Pride and Prejudice parallel SIP (It's one of my all time favourites) I also think that parallels could be drawn with Persuasion - a girl is persuaded not to marry the man she loves because he is beneath her. It makes me think of Snape effectively loosing his friendship with Lily because of the influence of other people in his life. Fortunately Anne Elliot gets another chance when she meets him again years later. Sadly Severus did not get a second chance.
LOL WUT | | (Reply to this) (Thread) |
| (Anonymous) | | Link: | (Link) | | Time: | 2009-06-20 03:03 am (UTC) |
|
| One more thing . . . Eliza is wracked with guilt over the shotgun marriage of Lydia to Wickham. She feels responsible because of secret knowledge she had of Wickham which she never told anyone. That's a nifty literary parallel to Snape. Eliza couldn't control what Lydia did, or what Wickham did, but she still blames herself and only confiding in Mr. Darcy solves the problem.
So... Dumbledore/Snape is the new Darcy/Lizzie? | | (Reply to this) (Thread) |
| unlike Harry he loses his best friend and gains alot of bad friends
I like how she manages to ignore that these things are Snape own fault and that Harry also had an opportunity to have a bad friend--Draco Malfoy--and still made the right choice.
I believe Snape also gave information that landed Mulciber in jail, which shows how much he changed from when he was a kid.
Ah, but I believe that he only did that because Neville went back in time and kicked his ass until he snitched on Mulciber. I believe it, so by rattlesnakeroot's logic it must be true! | | (Reply to this) (Thread) |
| Dude. I've been sick of these Austen/HP parallels since the good old days of the Deathmarch, not because I don't think there are parallels (I see a few), but because they ALWAYS GET THEM WRONG.
Just one example: Harry is not Emma. Ron is Emma. And Hermione is Knightley.
So there. | | (Reply to this) (Thread) |
lakme | | Link: | (Link) | | Time: | 2009-06-21 01:50 am (UTC) |
|
| Actually, I think I'd see Hermione as Emma more than Ron, at least in the know-it-all department.
If anyone can be compared to Lizzy and Darcy IMO, it's James and Lily. | | (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread) |
| (Anonymous) | | Link: | (Link) | | Time: | 2009-06-21 04:48 pm (UTC) |
|
| | And then Snape would be Wickham, which is not at all the least appropriate Austen comparison for him -- heroine is attracted to him, then realizes what a scumbag he is. (Though Professor Snape is rather more like Mrs. Norris). | | (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread) |
|
The HMS STFU - Snape is like Eliza Bennett in a way
|
|
