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The HMS STFU - Tin-hattery ad absurdam
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| | Subject: | Tin-hattery ad absurdam | | Time: | 04:48 pm | | Current Mood: | grumpy |
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| I'm sure most of you caught ![[info]](http://www.journalfen.net/img/userinfo.gif) mariem_1's latest post on ![[info]](http://www.journalfen.net/img/community.gif) fandom_wank about terri_testing, mary_j_59 and others conducting a group-wank on the topic Hermione Granger—Voldemort in the Making.
If you didn't and you haven't just eaten, go check it out.
The gist? That because Harry doesn't end the series by leaving the magical world behind, these stories were clearly intended to be either tragedy or, more particularly, horror, not fantasy. Oh, and Hermione is THE GREATEST EBIL THAT HAS EBER LIBED (fictionally). (Here's a link to the original post by terri_testing)
In any case, thinking that the post was here on the_hms_stfu rather than in the more lulzy fandom_wank, I posted a Very Serious Response.
:sigh:
I've said this before: what the Harmonians and the Snapefen have in common (ironically) is a basically Platonic view of the world. They believe in perfection as a reality, as an obtainable goal. They spent the first four books of the series utterly certain that JKR shared those views and that she was leading them to the promised land, where Harry would shed his imperfections and become the angelic hero, Hermione would be his anima—his living soul—Ron and Ginny (who were embodiments of physical, mental and spiritual imperfection) would just go away, and Snape would be fully, totally and in every way redeemed.
And then...
It didn't happen.
And they're still butt-hurt.
And they can't for the life of them let go of that first view—so it's all JKR's fault for not writing the series well, rather than theirs for misreading it.
And when you try to point out to them that perhaps the problem was their expectations, not the writing, you get reactions like this:
Ah, it's back to the ol' "well, they ain't plaster saints" excuse. Everytime anybody points out that Harry or Hermione acts in any way immoral, this "you just want him/her to be a plaster saint" is flung out. No, we don't want plaster saints, we want normal human beings, not psychopaths. Yes, psychopaths. Psychopaths have no conscience or empathy, and I'd say Harry, Hermione, Dumbledore, the Twins, James and Sirius fit that description quite neatly.
o.O
I feel like imitating Barney Frank in falling back on my Jewish heritage and answering.... well, this isn't a question, but still, answering it with a question: What planet are you on? And more to the point, why are you still THERE? Don't like the books? Fine. You don't have to like them. Not everyone does—though the series is in fact still selling rather well.
But finally, what's your problem?
The gleeful misreading and fandom circlejerk!retconning of the whole series—particularly the last three books—bespeaks an utter unwillingness to recognize that, perhaps, they misunderstood what they were reading from the start.
They wanted Hermione to be pure intellect—no morally shaky choices, thank you, because anyone who makes a morally shaky choice is clearly Not Good. They wanted Harry to be pure good—no Unforgivable Curses, thank you, because, you know, they're unforgivable. Right after DH came out, I had a long and very unsatisfying conversation with mary_j_59 (in and around conversations with a number of other people); the thing that she simply couldn't get past was that—in her mind—Harry was clearly meant by JKR to be a Christ figure and yet he used not only an Imperius Curse, but a Cruciatus! He is DAMNED. When I tried to argue that JKR was setting us up to expect Harry to use the worst of the Unforgivables on LV, but then pulled a switch because, you know Harry LEARNED something by kinda-almost dying, Mary's answer was that it didn't matter. Once he had committed a sin, he was imperfect and therefore the embodiment of all that was Fallen, which made JKR Ebil.
Uh. So he was supposed to be perfect but he wasn't so these are The Worst Books Ever?
And the idea that the author (like most of her readers) actually believes in a world where not only do good people occasionally make mistakes and do not-very-nice things, but sometimes doing not-very-nice things is actually the best answer to an otherwise unsolvable problem—that is anathema. The Greatest Evil Ever Committed. (I'd add more caps, but it gets hard to read after a while.) ETA: Unless, of course, said not-very-nice-thing was done by Severus Snape, the poor w00bie.
There's a play (can't remember the title! drat!) in which a character picks up Macbeth and spends most of the play convinced that she's reading a whodunit. She is, as I'm sure you will understand, rather confused, disappointed, and ultimately more than a little put out by the way in which Shakespeare's tragedy unfolds. ETA: In fact, it is a short story (which I believe was adapted for the stage) called The Macbeth Murder Mystery by James Thurber. Bless him.
The only way to see these books as truly belonging to the horror genre is to start by misunderstanding them completely—by expecting them to be The Chronicles of Narnia, where all good guys are Good (even the one naughty one per volume who shall be Redeemed) and all bad guys are Bad (and therefore are undeserving of Redemption), and Good shall vanquish Evil just because—without actually having to get its shimmering samite dirty.
The HP novels are not that kind of book. At ALL. JKR is much more like Tolkien than like Lewis, but she's much more post-modern than either of them. If Harry had become Über!Harry, the Galahad of the Wizarding World, destroying Voldemort and all the other impurities therein (like, say the Weasley family) with the Thunderbolt of Divine Grace, then I would have been the one who looked up and said, "What is this drekh? Where the heck did that come from?"
But she didn't. So we get to hear increasingly whiny, increasingly extraterrestrial "takes" on books that bear less and less relation to the ones we all read.
Whew.
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So. Any thoughts? | comments: Poke a delusional shipper     |
| | Funny how they insist on perfection from all of the good guys and yet worship Snape, who is about as solidly in the gray as it gets. | | (Reply to this) (Thread) |
| I like your Very Serious Reply. :) I read that exchange you had with mary_j_59 and I was moved to facepalm repeatedly at her obtuseness, especially at her interpretation of the religious basis behind the plot arc of Harry Potter.
So we get to hear increasingly whiny, increasingly extraterrestrial "takes" on books that bear less and less relation to the ones we all read.
Well-said! Have an Internets. :)
(Deleted/reposted because I wanted to use a different icon :D ) | | (Reply to this) (Thread) |
| Hee.
I love your icon.
:sniff:
Poor w00bie.
The thing about that exchange with mary_j_59 (half of which I can't find anymore—I'm not sure where it disappeared to, but it involved her views about JKR's abuse of Snape at greater length. Not a big deal; she hasn't shut up on the subject ever since.) was that I really tried to keep having a conversation with her—and she never quite got past her initial expectation and her utter disappointment of that expectation. It was, as I said... really unsatisfying.
And thanks. I always wanted an Internets of my very own! | | (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread) |
| The icon was made by a most excellent JFer, maximuski :)
Ths icon I'm using here is another Snape-mockery one made by cleolinda and snacky. | | (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread) |
| I really tried to keep having a conversation with her—and she never quite got past her initial expectation and her utter disappointment of that expectation.
I definitely noticed that in the bits that we could see in that post. She pretty much kept restating herself and refused to look deeper. | | (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread) |
| (Anonymous) | | Link: | (Link) | | Time: | 2009-09-18 03:25 am (UTC) |
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| As a nonbatshitinsane H/Hr shipper and snapefen hater, I feel like throwing up. These people are so whack.
BTW, I'm trying to write an essay on the treatment of Lily by snapfen and I'm trying to collect some of the most ridiculous and infuriating arguments/misconceptions about Lily's character. Want to help a sister out?
-randomneses @ lj | | (Reply to this) (Thread) |
| The best I can think of are some anecdotal examples cited by other STFU-ians of Snapedomers making mean cracks about Lily's fitness as a human being and parent.
Suggest you pick through the older STFU entries and see if any of the Snapefen have been highlighted as specifically making those sorts of comments. | | (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread) |
| After four looooooooooooooong years of HP batshittery (going back ro HBP) I've come to one conclusion* that can be applied to any and all butt-burt segments of the fandom.
It's all about ego and self-esteem, and the difference between those two things.
These are people that have monstrously HUGE egos but, if you look closely, very little self-esteem. In getting as emotionally and intellectually invested in the HP books as they did they staked every last millilitre of their self-worth on being right in saying insert-random-theory-here. When insert-random-theory-here turned out to be not only wrong but so wrong that "right" is here on planet Earth and "wrong" is in a galaxy far, far away their self-esteem took a mortal blow.
But. . .
The monstrously huge egos can't let it go. The monstrously huge egos are what lead to insisting, to the point of insanity, that the author is the one who got it wrong. The monstrously huge egos are what spit out reams of bullshit paper about how JKR didn't realize what she was writing, how the fans know more about the characters and the books then she does, how dare she ignore the fans wishes and write the story that she wanted to etc., etc., etc. The monstrously huge egos simply can not allow any of these people to shrug and say Oh well. Guess I misread that! and Move. The. Fuck. On.
*Besides the obvious fact that they are all a bunch of whiny-ass, overly entitled botards that possess the reading comprehension skills of a gnat. | | (Reply to this) (Thread) |
| That's a pretty good explanation for the behavior of the Harmoanians as well as those Snapefen who insist, even now, that "the true conflict of the series" was between Harry Potter and Severus Snape.
Last I looked, the prophecy JKR put in didn't say Harry had to bump off Snape, and it wasn't Snape who had decided to wipe out all obstacles to achieving total power over the wizarding world.
It would be... Voldemort.
Who was defeated not by romantic love, but by a love for all humanity. Sorry, Harmoanians, but just kissing your girlfriend isn't a big enough deterrence to Voldemort.
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| (Anonymous) | | Link: | (Link) | | Time: | 2009-09-18 05:04 pm (UTC) |
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| I think what's worse is their complete lack of a sense of humor. I'll give an analogy. On a newsgroup I used to frequent, a troll once called us "a bunch of herbs." (I'm not sure what they meant by this, so don't ask.) The group responded by everyone choosing a new herb name for themselves. If the Harmonians had after that infamous interview started calling themselves "delusionshippers" or something like that, do you think they'd wind up in wank so often?
- theorclair | | (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread) |
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*Besides the obvious fact that they are all a bunch of whiny-ass, overly entitled botards that possess the reading comprehension skills of a gnat.
Nicely summed up. :) | | (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread) |
| Psychopaths?
I believe these guys should do some research and read the bios of real psychopaths because they obviously don't understand the meaning of that word. | | (Reply to this) (Thread) |
| (Anonymous) | | Link: | (Link) | | Time: | 2009-09-19 01:12 am (UTC) |
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| | Exactly. And their diagnosis of the HP characters as psychopaths because of a few actions that weren't pure as the driven snow is hilarious. I really want them to read A Song Of Ice And Fire so that they can see how really, truly psychopathic main characters (or viewpoint characters, at least) behave. I mean, in that series, we have characters who burn people alive, are 9 when they first kill someone, treat their husband's bastard son like total crap, killed the king they were sworn to protect...and those are some of the more ultimately likeable and or/sympathetic characters! Of course, all those actions have context that makes them understandable, but still, wayyyy more extreme than anything our Hermione ever did. I'd like to see them try and do their little fauxsolpihic armchair psychology on that series...or see their heads explode from the moral ambiguity of it all. That would be cool too. | | (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread) |
| | Something that's bothered me for a long time in similar Hermione-is-evil rants: the whole "she sent Umbridge to be gang-raped" thing. Are they pulling that from traditional centaur mythos? Because if so, we've got absolutely no canon backup for the idea that the centaurs raped Umbridge; I certainly can't recall any in my readings of OoTP. | | (Reply to this) (Thread) |
| They do indeed. And it is a reasonable assumption to make that JKR would NOT try to make that kind of canon reference in a book series aimed primarily at children and teenagers.
The thing is, it's just not the kind of question one can ask JK Rowling; it would be in all kinda of bad taste.
However the reasonable inference is given that JKR seems to favor Hermione a little bit, she (in Hermione's shoes) would not have sent Umbridge to creatures known to commit sexual assaults on humans, assuming such existed. | | (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread) |
| (Anonymous) | | Link: | (Link) | | Time: | 2009-09-19 07:53 pm (UTC) |
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| | Not to mention Hermione meant the centaurs to just scare Umbridge away, not kidnap Umbridge. She didn't think Umbridge would be so f'in stupid as to antagonize hostile centuars, that's why she hissed at Umbridge not to insult them when she started doing just that. Even if Umbridge got gang raped (which she didn't) it would be her own fault, not Hermione's. | | (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread) |
| Centaurs in Greek mythology have either been wild creatures who ravished women or wise beings. Chiron, Hercules's tutor, was a centaur. Rowling seems to be presenting the centaurs as the latter in her books only more standoffish towards humans.
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| | Anybody else longing for a pstibbons - Snapefen cage match? I'd love to see the ultimate "Hermione's a saint" vs. "Hermione's a psychopath" smackdown. Wonder who'd win? | | (Reply to this) (Thread) |
| Snapefen by sheer dint of numbers.
Also, remember he's started catering to their favorite delusions by writing a fanfiction in which Lily is now his new frontkick Sue. | | (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread) |
| | Pstibbons' Hermione is actually a psychopath canon Hermione is according to marionros. She kills, tortures and rapes people, yet is presented as justified. | | (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread) |
lakme | | Link: | (Link) | | Time: | 2009-09-20 11:10 pm (UTC) |
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| Ah, it's back to the ol' "well, they ain't plaster saints" excuse. Everytime anybody points out that Harry or Hermione acts in any way immoral, this "you just want him/her to be a plaster saint" is flung out. No, we don't want plaster saints, we want normal human beings, not psychopaths. Yes, psychopaths. Psychopaths have no conscience or empathy, and I'd say Harry, Hermione, Dumbledore, the Twins, James and Sirius fit that description quite neatly.
My inner personality disorder researcher is DYING FROM AN OVERDOSE OF STUPIDITY. | | (Reply to this) (Thread) |
| (Anonymous) | | Link: | (Link) | | Time: | 2009-09-20 11:21 pm (UTC) |
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| These Snapefen make me want to wear a giant sign that says "Even though I was badly bullied all through school and had no friends I still think the Slytherins were more like the bullies than the poor helpless woobies."
- theorclair who always thought she'd be a Ravenclaw herself | | (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread) |
| (Anonymous) | | Link: | (Link) | | Time: | 2009-09-21 09:26 pm (UTC) |
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| ...No conscience or empathy?
Er, James saving Snape's life and fighting against Voldemort? Fred and George using their new-found-money to get gifts for their family that could use it? Dumbledore taking every mistake he's ever made to heart and carrying those until he dies and then sacrificing himself for the wizarding world?
...Heck, even Sirius, who was the least mentally stable due to Azkaban and general familial loopiness had deep love and loyalty to those he cared about, and was a bit more "honor before reason" than an escaped convict should be.
And don't get me STARTED on Harry, who, despite his sucky life, is probably one of the most normal, well-adjusted people in the series.
...I mean, seriously, what the heck?
-Simplefaith | | (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread) |
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The HMS STFU - Tin-hattery ad absurdam
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