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The HMS STFU -
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| OK, I'm going to take a minute here and be serious, because this is a question that has been eating away at my brain cells since HBP hit bookshelves.
What the hell is with the HP fandom and it's obsession with labeling every character a Sue/Stu? It goes beyond reasonable, if you ask me, because if you look at any character with no other end in mind than finding reasons to dislike him/her they ALL become Sues/Stus. Besides, I thought "Mary Sue" was a fanfiction concept in relation to original characters; I tend to have a real problem with it being applied to canon characters.
And frankly I don't see the character that they're sporking as being all that Sue-ish (except for being Snape's raison d'etre). So blonde hair and green eyes automatically equals Sue now? I can partially see the point about the constant harping on "emerald green" eyes, but to me that's just a symptom of bad writing.
Oh, and the snippet of the fic posted? Holy Abuse of Present Tense, Batman!
[/thoughts on yaoi] | | (Reply to this) (Thread) |
| (Anonymous) | | Link: | (Link) | | Time: | 2009-10-02 04:02 am (UTC) |
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| I've been mulling over an essay that I don't have time to write: 'Mary Sues: Not As Bad As You Think!'
Put any given male lead through a Mary Sue test. A lot will come out Sues. Because they're the leads in their story - of course they have a tendency to be out of the ordinary!
Alternately, just do away with the term 'Mary Sue' all together. It's far more useful to say 'this character is too perfect to be plausible, they need to be rounded out' or 'obvious, idealized author insert'.
It really shouldn't be applied to canon works, except maybe with things like long running comic books/series where the fans eventually become the new canon writers. But even then. Harley Quinn fits a lot of Sue criteria, and she was an added character to an established mythos. But she works, she was well written! She has glaring flaws! She didn't woobiefy the Joker! It's okay to add new characters!
Bah. Rant fuel. | | (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread) |
| I agree, except that it's very possible to have canon-sues and stus. The big example I always think of is Rand al'Thor -- when a character literally warps reality to produce deus ex machinas on an as-needed basis, I'd say it's a pretty safe assumption that you're out of the realm of a well-written character and into the realms of Suedom.
And those are my thoughts on Jordanyaoi. *mops up* | | (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread) |
| (Anonymous) | | Link: | (Link) | | Time: | 2009-10-02 05:57 pm (UTC) |
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| I said in that thread, and I maintain, that Mary Sue is all about manipulating the plot. If the universe bends to their whim, it's a Sue/Stu. I use Rose Potter as an example - even if you take away all her super powers she is still always loved and never taken to task for anything. That's warping the plot to fit their needs. It's not about original characters, powerful characters, or heroic ones. It's about whether the plot changes to fit their needs.
- theorclair | | (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread) |
| I don't believe lead characters can be Sues/Stus, for all the reasons you stated, but sometimes minor characters can fall into the Sue-trap, specially in adaptations (the first example that comes to my mind is Godric from True Blood, who went from a creepy yet interesting character in the books to a flawless snowflake in the show).
And that's what defines a Mary Sue for me: its notorious lack of (real) flaws, or at least the fact that all the other characters don't notice said flaws or forgive them pretty easily. I guess that's why Sues are far more common in fanfiction: pre-teen girls don't like giving negative traits to their characters, since it's all about creating a "better" version of themselves, a "perfect" girl both physically and emotionally. | | (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread) |
| What the hell is with the HP fandom and it's obsession with labeling every character a Sue/Stu?
I'll try to explain: In HP fandom, the definition of "Mary Sue" is a little different. Here, a Sue is any (female) character that gets in the way of your ship, er who you don't like, I mean who happens to have at least one nice thing said about her by some other character. She is a Mary Sue, despite having innumerable flaws that you will then go on to describe in excrutiating detail. The fact that no other character points out these flaws in as much detail, or the fact that the author does not make the character eventually get her karmic comeuppance for said flaws is what makes her a poorly written Sue whose fabulousness is suddenly "pushed down our throats". Any reasonable explanation as to why she is not a Sue (i.e. being portrayed through the POV of a teenage boy in love) is clearly irrelevant to her actual Sueishness. Calling someone a Mary Sue allows you to denigrate the character and the writing skills of the author in the worst ways imaginable.
tl;dr - this fandom is full of spoiled whiney fanbrats who never get tired of bitching that they didn't get their way. | | (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread) |
| Yeah I've seen almost every HP character being acused of Sueness. The usual bullets go against Ginny, but they also point at Hermione, Cho, Tonks, even LUNA, wtf!
(Tonks-bashers are so obvious, though. Ever since she trashed their Remus/Sirius ~*OTP*~ they went crazy with hate)
There's also a bit of hypocrisy. If there was a male character that was perfect on every way, super cute and kind and powerful, I can bet my house NO ONE would yell "Stu!!!". | | (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread) |
| (Anonymous) | | Link: | (Link) | | Time: | 2009-10-03 09:52 pm (UTC) |
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| Honestly, it's a lot of fandoms, and it annoys the hell at me. Especially since the label is disproportionately heaped on female characters who are either: a) are vaguely competent, b)someone's love interest or c) suffer the sin of being the friggin' hero of the story. Because guy heroes can do all the amazing, pure things they want, and it's okay. If a girl dares do it? Nooooo.
Like I've seen Tamora Peirce's characters being accused of being sues. Because they talk to animals, have magic artifacts, and sometimes have magical skills and technicolored eyes or whatever. Also, they are competent! They persevere and triumph and save the day! IN A HEROIC FANTASY SETTING. How many male characters have speshul pets and magic artifacts and are heroes? Only every heroic fantasy character since the beginning of time! But nope, if a girl follows the same tropes, she's a sue. It doesn't matter if she has a million flaws, if she genuinely struggles to learn the skills, nope, she's a girl, she's competent, she's a sue!
With is why Ginny and Hermione get called that. Ginny dared to be Harry's love interest and a talented, snarky Weasley. OMGSUE! Who cares if other characters are talented and snarky? Harry loves Ginny, she's a Sue! Hermione's smart, she's a sue! Lily was a nice person and a lot of people liked her! SUE! They've got ovaries and aren't wastes of space! SUE!
Which is why I'm tired of the word. It should only be used in really obvious cases, and apply rarely to published works. Like, Vampire!Bella is the only obvious CanonSue I can think of, because she didn't struggle at all with the limitations the other characters did. | | (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread) |
| (Anonymous) | | Link: | (Link) | | Time: | 2009-10-03 09:52 pm (UTC) |
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| Honestly, it's a lot of fandoms, and it annoys the hell at me. Especially since the label is disproportionately heaped on female characters who are either: a) are vaguely competent, b)someone's love interest or c) suffer the sin of being the friggin' hero of the story. Because guy heroes can do all the amazing, pure things they want, and it's okay. If a girl dares do it? Nooooo.
Like I've seen Tamora Peirce's characters being accused of being sues. Because they talk to animals, have magic artifacts, and sometimes have magical skills and technicolored eyes or whatever. Also, they are competent! They persevere and triumph and save the day! IN A HEROIC FANTASY SETTING. How many male characters have speshul pets and magic artifacts and are heroes? Only every heroic fantasy character since the beginning of time! But nope, if a girl follows the same tropes, she's a sue. It doesn't matter if she has a million flaws, if she genuinely struggles to learn the skills, nope, she's a girl, she's competent, she's a sue!
With is why Ginny and Hermione get called that. Ginny dared to be Harry's love interest and a talented, snarky Weasley. OMGSUE! Who cares if other characters are talented and snarky? Harry loves Ginny, she's a Sue! Hermione's smart, she's a sue! Lily was a nice person and a lot of people liked her! SUE! They've got ovaries and aren't wastes of space! SUE!
Which is why I'm tired of the word. It should only be used in really obvious cases, and apply rarely to published works. Like, Vampire!Bella is the only obvious CanonSue I can think of, because she didn't struggle at all with the limitations the other characters did.
_Nev | | (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread) |
| (Anonymous) | | Link: | (Link) | | Time: | 2009-10-02 02:37 am (UTC) |
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| I had no idea that not continuing to be friends with someone who called you a mudblood made you a bitch. Seriously ?
stumps101 from lj | | (Reply to this) (Thread) |
| (Anonymous) | | Link: | (Link) | | Time: | 2009-10-02 08:57 am (UTC) |
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| | I think it's pretty clear from the way everyone reacted in CoS when Draco called Hermione a Mudblood that it's not an ordinary-level insult, but an N-word equivalent. | | (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread) |
| BUT SNAPE WAS TOTALLY JUST PEER PRESSURED INTO IT. IT'S NOT SO BAD AT ALL AND LILY'S A HOR FOR TELLING HIM WHERE TO GO.
Tough cookies, as they say. | | (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread) |
![[info]](http://www.journalfen.net/img/userinfo.gif) mcity | | Link: | (Link) | | Time: | 2009-10-02 06:21 pm (UTC) |
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| >A traitor forever by a mistake and slip of tongue he had at seventeen.
After years of associating with a group of ruffians, followed by years of joining up with said ruffians as they graduated to murder and terrorism.
>Ginny's out-of-nowhere awesomeness
What I like about Ginny is that half of the people who hate her claim she didn't have enough screen time to be developed as a "proper" love interest for Harry, while the other half complain that too much time is given over to her relationship to Harry. And there's a lot of people who say both. Unplesable Fanbase indeed.
>I have thought things through and this is my opinion.
Take a shot.
>[Lily] IS still highly overrated
"Overrated" is always a code word for "I'm right, and a lot of other people are wrong." Also, shot. | | (Reply to this) (Thread) |
| (Anonymous) | | Link: | (Link) | | Time: | 2009-10-02 06:42 pm (UTC) |
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| A traitor forever by a mistake and slip of tongue he had at seventeen.
'You call everyone of my birth mudblood. Why should I ....'
There's no point, is there?
| | (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread) |
| 'You call everyone of my birth mudblood. Why should I ....'
Snapefen have claimed that's proof as to why Lily was a selfish bitch because she only got mad when it was said to her. As if racism intertwined with close relationships were ever that simple. Oh, and that mudblood wasn't that bad of an insult. -_- | | (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread) |
| Lol, I just love it, "slip of the tongue".
Like he hadn't used that insult on other people before. *rolls eyes* | | (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread) |
| (Anonymous) | | Link: | (Link) | | Time: | 2009-10-02 07:22 pm (UTC) |
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| I'm quite confused over how Ginny was "out of nowhere," or at least implausibly "out of nowhere." She was always around; it's not like she was "a new exchange student from the USA!" ;)
Why did Ginny come to the forefront? Because Harry was a 16 year old boy, and realized that, now that Ginny is a 15 year old girl, she's attractive. That's it, really.
And there's nothing, nothing, in the HP fandom that bugs me more than the "Lily's a bitch for breaking Snape's heart!" people. Ugh, just...go die, please.
You know what I think? I think if, after SWM, if Snape had gotten rid of his dark arts fetish and left his DE friends, and then gone back to Lily and said "I know what you mean now, and I'm sorry that I hurt you," she would've taken him back. But he was too thick to do that. Cry me a river, Snape and Snapefen.
[/rant]
-Simplefaith | | (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread) |
| >[Lily] IS still highly overrated
OVERRATED??!! XD
Harry Potter LIVED because of her!!! The whole plot of the books revolves around Lily's sacrifice and love!!!
Jesus Fucking Christ. | | (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread) |
| After years of associating with a group of ruffians, followed by years of joining up with said ruffians as they graduated to murder and terrorism.
Yeah, they always seem to forget that part, don't they?
To me, what is most telling about Snape and Lily's relationship, and a sure sign that it was doomed from the start, was that on their first train ride to Hogwarts, when Lily is upset that Petunia is mad at her, Snape says "why do you care? She's just a..." - A clear indication that, to Snape, blood does matter (despite his protests to the contrary) and Muggles don't matter at all. I imagine that their friendship was full of little pleasantries like that, that Lily continually ignored until the straw that broke the camel's back. What Snape fen always seem to miss is that it was clear that this was not an isolated incident but a culmination of what was clearly a growing problem between them. I guess that's because they wouldn't consider Lily's words in the next scene worth listening to.
Sorry. Would you like to know my thoughts on yaoi? | | (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread) |
| (Anonymous) | | Link: | (Link) | | Time: | 2009-10-02 08:04 pm (UTC) |
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| What I love is "Lily is a Sue because everybody who speaks of her,( a by every body I mean FRIENDS speaking to his ORPHAN SON or the man who idiolizes her) says good things about her. What did they expected?
-Hey Harry, your mom was a bitch.???
My aunt died when I was young leaving three little children behind, I guess she wasn't perfect, but nobody speaks badly of her, even less in front of her children. Its logical.
Why is a bad writing when she descrives a perfect and logical behavior?
Wwolf_87
PD I know i'm late but I had to said it. | | (Reply to this) (Thread) |
| Not that I get into conversations with the crazies, but if I ever did and someone threw that whole Everyone speaks well of Lily therefore she's a Mary Sue crap at me my response would be:
BECAUSE. SHE'S. DEAD.
Honestly, nothing else needs to be said. | | (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread) |
| To latch on to the entirely wrong part of the post ...
In fact, Twilight can probably be blamed for the Edible People phenomenon, too. You know how Jasper's hair is always honey-coloured, not just blond? And how Bella's eyes are always chocolate-coloured, instead of just brown? Yeah. That has revolutionized Hermione-sues forever.
Excuse me. Excuse me. What. No. | | (Reply to this) (Thread) |
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The HMS STFU -
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