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March 1st, 2010

[mariem_1] Subject: Bad, evil Remus, poor, poor Snape Time: 06:29 pm

sailorlum wanted an explanation why Snapefen hate Lupin so much. He was flawed, but I wonder why some people think he was deep down a secretly nasty, nasty guy? Did they never let go of the Lupin-is-ever-so-evil theory, or something? That's what Snapefen on The Harry Potter Network thought about Remus before DH: Silver Ink Pot J. K. Rowling has commented on Lupin's relationship with his friends, saying that "Lupin’s failing is he likes to be liked. That’s where he slips up – he’s been disliked so often he’s always pleased to have friends so cuts them an awful lot of slack." (Royal Albert Hall Interview, 2003) Lupin also seems easily swayed to participate in whatever activities the others are doing. One major bit of evidence for this is the Marauder's Map, written by Lupin and the other Marauders. Within it, they placed a way of "making their voices heard," as JKR described it on her Official Site, with a "recording" of their teenage voices. When Professor Snape attempts to "reveal the secrets" of the Map, he hears a list of insults about his appearance. "Mr.Moony prsents his compliments to Profesor Snape and begs him to keep his abnormally large nose out of other people's business" "Mr.Prongs agrees with Mr.Moony and would like to add that Professor Snape is an ugly git" "Mr.Padfoot would like to register his astonishment that an idiot like that ever became a Professor" "Mr.Wormtail bids Professor Snape good day and advises him to wash his hair,the slimeball" We expect that the first ones might be from the "ringleaders" of the gang, but that is not the case. The first insult is from Remus Lupin, good boy and Prefect, and the one who was supposed to set the example for his friends. Clearly friendship for Lupin meant going along with the crowd of bullies, and he actually seems to look back sentimentally to that time of his life. Though Lupin is "more mature" as an adult than the "flawed" Sirius Black, he is also a teacher who plays a sort of prank on Severus Snape - he suggests that Neville Longbottom create a "Riddikulus" Boggart combining Snape in women's clothing. In Book Three, that scene appears humorous or even "deserved" due to Snape's own harsh demeanor in class. Yet as the series has unfolded, and we read about the extent of the Marauders' bullying in OotP and HBP, it becomes harder to dismiss Lupin's unprofessional act which helps him become a popular teacher on the first day. He still seems to believe that popularity is great even when it is gained at the expense of others, which is what many bullies believe. Unfortunately, he also targets the same victim from their younger days - Severus Snape. *** I added one section about Lupin not only as a bystander, but as one of the bullies, since he participates in insulting Snape's appearance in the Map and seems to have shared the views of the other Marauders. His role was really as a "good friend" and even an "enabler" to the others, since he was a Prefect who looked the other way. *** The best thing Lupin ever said about Snape was in HBP, when he gave him credit for the Wolfsbane Potion. But then like the true bystander he is, he added the caveat that he "neither liked him nor disliked him." That is faint praise indeed. Nyctalus I do agree that Lupin is rather one of Snape's bullies, but he does the bullying in a rather less obvious way than James and Sirius. As a Prefect he does have the power, and would also have the duty, to stop this kind of things, or at least report them to the staff, but he deliberately does nothing. I'm re-reading PoA right now, and a few things stood out to me in a particular way... If Lupin were feeling remorse about his own power abuse as a Prefect, I think he might have acted with less indifference towards Snape as an adult. But Lupin's attitude towards Snape when he became a DADA teacher in PoA says a quite a lot about how much it takes for bullies to really change, to reach insight into their own behaviour and choose to start acting differently... Lupin got the chance to teach at Hogwarts in a situation when no one else seemed to be offering him a job. Snape makes it possible for him by brewing the Wolfsbane Potion (although I do think he rather had security motives for doing that ). And on the surface Lupin is pleasant and polite with Snape and thanks him for the effort. But how does Lupin spend his very first lesson at Hogwarts, and how does he thank his former bullying victim for this favour? By taking on Jame's and Sirius' ideas and start humiliating his colleague, conjuring up an image of Snape in ridiculous clothing... It's very 'Maraudish' indeed, and it makes me think of the insults in the Marauder's map; brought about in a formal and polite language, but nevertheless full of venom... When I first read the part where Snape is working as a DADA stand-in for Lupin and disqualifies him as a teacher in front of the class, I thought (just like Harry) that it was a nasty thing to do. But now I realize that Lupin had already broken the mutual respect in his first lesson with the vulture hat and the red handbag, so Snape's 'bashing' of Lupin is actually just a retaliation. A retaliation that Harry has some suspicions about, but he has no chance at that moment to see the whole picture of bullying in the past... Spirit Nyctalus: I strongly agree. And since I'm re-reading PoA right now too, there's another thing that comes to my mind - the scene where Snape brings the Wolfsbane potion cup to Lupin. I remember reading that in one of Red Hen's essays - it was very well said, but I'm not sure whether I have a permission to quote it? Basically, it was that Lupin cannot be unaware of Snape's subconscious (and maybe not that subconcious) horror based on the incident in their sixth year. Yet he does NOT want to drink the potion in front of Severus and make him feel at ease, despite that Severus hund aroung in obvious expectation. It is very subtle and it didn't catch my eye the first few times I read the book, but now it does. It's typically Lupin, and just like the other instances we see him bully Snape. He humiliates Snape infront of the schoolchildren (and Harry in particular) with the witch's clothes but hides the spitefulness of his doing under the impression he's trying only to help Neville to get rid of his fear. Yet it is clear that had he wanted to really help Neville, he wouldn't have brought him more troubles with Snape through this "joke". Nyctalus Well said, Spirit! My opinion is that a person who deliberately fails to act when he easily could and definitely should help a fellow human being from suffering, can't wash his hands entirely from the responsability of bullying, even if his conduct looks rather more harmless than the one of more agressive bullies. After all, he actually allows the abuse to happen... You're so right that Lupin should have had some realization about how a defensless person would feel towards him, after having been lured before him in his werewolf state... And still, in PoA Lupin is obviously not even eager to show his own good intentions by taking his medication openly before his former victim. As you say, this is rather subtle, but definitely there... Silver Ink Pot Spirit: Thank you for that insight about Lupin refusing to take the potion in front of Snape - I wouldn't have thought of that. On the surface, Snape seems to be badgering him about it as if he doesn't trust him. Harry thinks Snape is trying to poison Lupin. Later, we find out why Snape doesn't trust him, and in the end, Snape is justified because Lupin skips taking his potion on the night of the full moon! How could he forget? So Snape is justified all the way, but Harry feels so friendly towards Lupin by then that he has nothing but sympathy, and Harry still blames Snape for costing Remus the DADA job. But it was really Lupin's own actions that were to blame, or again - lack of action. I used to call Lupin the ultimate "bystander," but I am revising that opinion due to the insult in the Map. Lupin's insult is first and not last -he is as much a leader as a follower. James agrees with him, and not the other way around. subtle science Of course, had Lupin simply drunk the potion, Snape would've been out of the office in a heartbeat; it was Lupin himself who caused Snape to linger...Lupin's little play at dominance/control was the delay factor. And not to mention who's word was good for about 20 years and who admits himself to being less than trustworthy........ Silver Ink Pot--I like the bit you added about Lupin. Although I'm not so sure Lupin is more mature than Sirius--he's just more functional and immature in a different manner from Sirius'. Silver Ink Pot I think being back at Hogwarts caused both men to fall into old patterns. Snape's grudge comes to light, but Lupin's "flaw" (as JKR called it) also comes to light. He is secretive in his friendships, and "cuts his friends too much slack." He should have been protecting the tunnels, since he knew about them, and knew that Sirius was entering the castle, but Lupin doesn't do anything about that. Quote from: Potency I have a different take on Lupin not wanting to drink the potion in front of Severus...I think he wanted Severus out of there before he could say anything suggestive or incriminating about the fact that Lupin was a werewolf. I think both Lupin and Snape were on tenterhooks about what the one could reveal about the other. Potency: I'm not sure if Lupin really thinks that Snape will tell anyone his secret, and if he is worried about that, why does he do something sure to attract Snape's anger on the first day of school? Why rock the boat? As far as not wanting to drink the potion in front of Snape, it seems to be more of a control issue. Lupin doesn't want to do it because Snape is pushing him to do it - in my opinion. Snape wants to watch him drink it because Harry is sitting there with him, and that is worrisome so close to the full moon. Professor Lupin took another sip and Harry had a crazy urge to knock the goblet out of his hands. "Professor Snape's very interested in the Dark Arts, he blurted out. "Really?" said Lupin, looking only mildly interested as he took another gulp of potion. "Some people reckon --" Harry hesitated, then plunged recklessly on, "some people reckon he'd do anything to get the Defense Against the Dark Arts job." Lupin drained the goblet and pulled a face. "Disgusting," he said. "Well, Harry, I'd better get back to work. see you at the feast later." "Right," said Harry, putting down his empty teacup. Despite what Lupin says there, I think he still dislikes Snape. When Harry says that Snape would "do anything" to get the Dark Arts job, Lupin says "Disgusting." While we assume he is talking about the potion, JKR has left that slightly ambiguous for some reason. Is it just the potion he finds disgusting, or Snape, himself? Quote from: Potency I know I see Lupin differently than the majority of people here, I always have, but I really see that scene as both men being wary of each other...I have a feeling both heart-rates went up when Lupin saw Snape bring in the flask and Snape seeing Harry in there. I think the cordiality was just a cover-up. Its hard to describe, but every time I read PoA, I get that same feeling...its possible when I read DH, I will see it differently though. Do you think that Snape's heart rate went up because Harry reminded him of James? Or because Snape thought Lupin might attack Harry? I think Snape is more worried about Harry's safety than anything Lupin might say about him. How could Harry's opinion of Snape be any lower than it already is in PoA? (Well - actually HBP answers that question, lol.) subtle science I think Snape's wariness is due to the fact that he knows Lupin can't be trusted any further than Snape can throw him--as the story unfolds, Snape is proven correct....including the fact that Lupin cannot be trusted to take the Potion as he ought. Lupin definitely falls back into old patterns of behavior: his subtle mockery of Snape echoes the tone and style of his Map insult. Both Lupin and Sirius immediately rewind their lives and go right back to the Marauder days in PoA. In contrast, while Snape refers to his grudge, his behavior toward and about Lupin reflects an effort to work with this person--one of his former tormentors. Even when given a golden opportunity, in the chapter "Snape's Grudge," Snape carefully words his response to Harry's charge about James, so that he does not reveal anything about Lupin's true nature. Snape remains true to his word: he will not reveal Lupin's lycanthropy even when it would explain Snape's side of the story even more clearly and completely, and possibly aid Harry's understanding of his character. It is a superb piece of writing: PoA is structured so as to make Snape look petty and obsessed, even deranged, as Fudge says at the end of the novel. Yet....Snape turns out to be right: Lupin is not trustworthy; Lupin is extremely dangerous; Lupin was and is a manipulative bully. Nyctalus Quote from: subtle science on May 31, 2007, 01:12:46 PM It is a superb piece of writing: PoA is structured so as to make Snape look petty and obsessed, even deranged, as Fudge says at the end of the novel. Yet....Snape turns out to be right: Lupin is not trustworthy; Lupin is extremely dangerous; Lupin was and is a manipulative bully. I agree that Lupin is a manipulative sort of bully, and I think he actually shows the same kind of hypocricy as Sirius, although more wrapped up in a 'nice' package... In PoA he solemnly tells Harry off for being ungrateful to his parents, who gave their lives for him, by risking his neck. But Lupin himself doesn't even show Snape the gratitude of respecting him in practice, even though Snape has made the effort to actually colaborate with one of his old tormentors. And he must also know inside that he's risking Harry's life by not telling Dumbledore what he knows about Sirius, and by not taking his Wolfsbane properly. Quote from: Ignisia I think that, like the beast within, there's something of the Marauder in Lupin that rises up every now and then, especially when faced with the past. That may be because he hasn't fully come to terms with his part in what Sirius and James did to others. He doesn't face up to his mistake, and so is doomed to repeat it sometimes.I think that, like the beast within, there's something of the Marauder in Lupin that rises up every now and then, especially when faced with the past. That may be because he hasn't fully come to terms with his part in what Sirius and James did to others. He doesn't face up to his mistake, and so is doomed to repeat it sometimes. Exactly. Lupin isn't mature enough yet to take his part of the responsability for how Snape was treated by the Marauders - he merely dismisses it as something that just happened between James and Severus... I do think both Snape and Lupin are feeling unconfortable in the Wolfsbane scene. But while it might be both anger and weariness expressed from Snape, I have the impression that Lupin is merely feeling that Snape makes too much fuss about his potion, and Lupin doesn't want to draw people's attention to him... Silver Ink Pot Let me see if I can explain why I don't cut Lupin more slack than I do. I know there are good things about his character, and at first felt very fond of him, but I've read parts of PoA a hundred times, and I still stumble over some of Lupin's conversations. Maybe Ignisia has it right - there is a "beast within," which makes him the full equal of the other Marauders. He is a victim of lycanthropy, yes - it is not a choice to be a werewolf. But the beast is in there anyway. That is similar to the other Marauders, who could not choose what they became as Animagi. Their inner truth came out. In terms of our essay, this is how I see it: Lupin had a difficult childhood as a werewolf. He says his parents "tried everything," and we can only imagine what that means - locks, chains, barriers, potions, and whatever you can imagine. But Young Snape also had a difficult childhood as shown in his memories. Lupin never had friends before he met the Marauders. Snape apparently never had friends at all, except for Lily who stood up for him. Here's my point: Lupin should feel more sympathetic to an "outsider" like Snape because that is what they have in common. That is what Harry responds to and understands about SWM - Snape is ostracized, terrorized, and shunned. But that is also exactly why Harry feels sympatico with Lupin, who is shunned by Wizarding society. However, Lupin never says that he understood Snape's plight - except he knew his friends needed to "lay off" him. He made them "feel guilty sometimes." It's just not enough in terms of moral courage, which he still lacks at times in PoA. I hope Lupin has changed and moved on, but I'm not sure. Some things he says still raise red flags for me, such as his statement that Snape might have killed Hermione and Luna at the end of HBP. Harry is spinning a version of "Bad Snape" then, but so is Lupin - he accuses him of wanting to kill his students even though Snape has just fled without hurting Harry. I think it's a bad sign, but that's just my own gut reaction to a character I don't really like very much. I realize that I am biased, and part of that comes from SWM. However, in HBP, we have Lupin "on the fence" about Snape at Christmas, and calling him a heartless murderer by June. I think Lupin was very quick to come off that fence, considering everything he knows about Snape's past and Dumbledore's trust in him. Nyctalus It's fun to try and figure out Snape and the Marauders because they're all painted so very human with their pettiness, grudges, emotional wounds, moral cowardice, depressions, hatred, difficult childhoods etc. and still wanting to do something good in their lives... (but I do think Snape is the only one we've seen having some success so far, the only one really practising change and redemption, even though he doesn't even believe he's managed to teach Harry anything...) Unfortunately I see no sign in the first six books that any of the remaining adult Marauders has matured enough to "get out of" their tendencies to bully, which is shown in their incapability to show their former victim at least some respect. As for Lupin, at least we can see him struggle a bit with his own conciense; expressions like "did I ever tell you to lay off Snape?" or "I should be grateful" (parafrased) comes to mind. But this is just Step 1, not nearly enough to produce any real change. I like Iggy's expression of the "beast within him" and I guess being a werewolf can alter you mentally in some sense, considering that Bill just had some "contamination" by a werewolf that hadn't transformed, and yet he is now feeling a desire for raw meat... I agree with SIP that it would be great to know more about them in DH. For example how can Lupin manage without biting people when he is spying on the other werewolves? Or does he always manage to be back before full moon? As for Snape's feelings towards Lupin I think he has pretty much the same basic feeling for all the remaining Marauders... Even if Peter might be the one he despises the most I think he's particularly annoyed by a bully like Lupin who wants to be seen as "nice" with supposedly friendly words, but who still doesn't show any real respect and doesn't express any willingness to understand things more in depth. waddiwasiwitch I completely agree that like Sirius Lupin is a hypocrite although he does not realise it. He is probably even more of a hypocrite as he covers everything up with a veneer of niceness and affability which a direct contrast to Snape. It always seems to me that is unintentionally going back to his Marauder days when it comes to Snape especially in POA. It is not just the boggart incident and the potion incident but he often addresses Snape as Severus in front of the students especially Harry. I do not think that Lupin relaises what he is doing but honestly thinks highly of himself and his moral compass which I thik is very different to what they should be. I think that Lupin tries to do the right thing but has deeply flawed logic. To feel more comfortable with himself he convincs himself that he is doing the right thing. He will do what is easy while maintainig that it is the right thing to do. I would like to see Lupin growing up in the DH but his reaction in HBP does not fill me with much hope. weaver I feel that Lupin is playing Snape all through PoA. He knows Snape promised not to reveal that Lupin is a werewolf, so he deliberately gives Snape reasons to want to "let it slip." It's as if Lupin wants to make Snape uncomfortable by tempting him to do something he promised Dumbledore he wouldn't - and Lupin enjoys Snape's discomfort. It's Lupin's way of reminding Snape of his place in the pecking order. Adding to Snape's discomfort is the fact that Dumbledore reverts to protecting Lupin and ignoring Snape's (legitimate) concerns. Really, except for the fact that he is older, Snape is, in essence, being bullied by Lupin throughout PoA. The presence of Sirius running free undoubtedly adds to Snape's discomfort. Snape's angry, out-of-control reactions can be understood in light of the sudden re-emergence of his old tormentors and Dumbledore's dismissal of his concerns. This is more than just concern for the safety of the students in general, and Harry in particular (although I believe he is concerned). It is that he is re-living those unresolved emotions from his youth. I don't subscribe to the idea that Snape is angry because of an old school grudge. He is legitimately angry because of the current actions of Lupin and the situation with a known traitor and killer (Sirius) on the loose. Snape is just having to re-live the emotional soup of his childhood at the same time, which causes his emotions to run wild. ignisia What bugs me the most in PoA is when Lupin covers up for Harry in "Snape's Grudge". We see two adults and one child, and it seems like one of the adults is teaming up with the kid against the other adult for reasons that just aren't worth it. Why cover up for Harry when Harry has definitely done something wrong? Why should Lupin keep the map for himself, when it would be just as fine (if not better) to have it locked back up in Filch's cabinet? In fact, Lupin "teams up" with the kids against Snape a lot. Sometimes he does it for good reasons, but a lot of the time, it could really be avoided. Serpentine Quote from: weaver I feel that Lupin is playing Snape all through PoA. He knows Snape promised not to reveal that Lupin is a werewolf, so he deliberately gives Snape reasons to want to "let it slip." It's as if Lupin wants to make Snape uncomfortable by tempting him to do something he promised Dumbledore he wouldn't - and Lupin enjoys Snape's discomfort. It's Lupin's way of reminding Snape of his place in the pecking order. Actually it's even worse... It's Lupin himself who gives us this, IMHO rather revisionist, version of events, i.e. that Snape is to blame for his loss of the DADA job. Hagrid's account leaves it ambiguous what the actual reason was, or even what exactly Snape said (note though that according to him Lupin resigned "first thing in the morning", i.e. if Snape spilled the beans "only" at breakfast that would seem to have been after the fact): Quote from: PoA, chapter "Owl Post Again", UK ed., p.454ff. 'Yeah ... can't've tied him [Buckbeak] up properly,' said Hagrid, gazing happily out over the grounds. 'I was worried this mornin', mind ... thought he mighta met Professor Lupin in the grounds, but Lupin says he never ate anythin' las' night ...' 'What?' said Harry quickly. 'Blimey, haven' yeh heard?' said Hagrid, his smile fading a little. He lowered his voice, even though there was nobody in sight. 'Er - Snape told all the Slytherins this mornin' ... thought everyone'd know by now ... Professor Lupin's a werewolf, see. An' he was loose in the grounds las' night. He's packing now, o' course.' 'He's packing?' said Harry, alarmed. 'Why?' 'Leavin', isn' he?' said Hagrid, looking surprised that Harry had to ask. 'Resigned firs' thing in the mornin'. Says he can' risk it to happen again.' (...) Lupin's office door was open. He had already packed most of his things. The Grindylow's empty tank stood next to his battered old suitcase, which was open and nearly full. Lupin was bending over something on his desk, and only looked up when Harry knocked on his door. 'I saw you coming,' said Lupin, smiling. He pointed to the parchment he had been poring over. It was the Marauder's Map. 'I just saw Hagrid,' said Harry. 'And he said you'd resigned. It's not true, is it?' 'I'm afraid he is,' said Lupin. He started opening his desk drawers and taking out the contents. Why?' said Harry. 'The Ministry of Magic don't think you were helping Sirius, do they?' Lupin crossed to the door and closed it behind Harry. 'No. Professor Dumbledore managed to convince Fudge that I was trying to save your lives.' He sighed. 'That was the final straw for Severus. I think the loss of the Order of Merlin hit him hard. So he - er - accidentally let it slip that I am a werewolf this morning at breakfast.' 'You're not leaving just because of that!' said Harry. Lupin smiled wryly. 'This time tomorrow, the owls will start arriving from parents - they will not want a werewolf teaching their children, Harry. And after last night, I see their point. I could have bitten any of you ... that must never happen again.' Um, Harry - the Ministry of Magic? I rather think it's Dumbledore's opinion that counts in Hogwarts matters... and he seems to know already that this is not really about Lupin "helping" Sirius because Sirius has turned out to be innocent (though I am curious to know how Dumbles knew that when he sent the kids off to save him). And Lupin's claim that Dumbles convinced Fudge that he was "trying to save" the students sounds also somewhat fishy to me. Fudge's reaction to their return to the castle the previous night appears ambiguous too - he could be referring to either "DE" Sirius' escape or to Lupin running loose ('Shocking business ... shocking ... miracle none of them died ... never heard the like ... by thunder, it was lucky you were there, Snape ...' - chapter 21 "Hermione's Secret, UK ed. p. 416), but Dumbledore must have known by then that Sirius was innocent, I don't see him allowing Harry and Hermione to free him and covering it up for them otherwise. He also knew though that Lupin's a werewolf, and under the circumstances I don't see Snape keeping it from him that Lupin was running about without his wolfsbane potion - even Hagrid was worried about Buckbeak (!) because of it. (No reason to worry if Lupin had taken it as he ought to, right?) It's interesting that in the scene quoted above, Lupin surveys the Map and closes the door before he tells Harry his version of the story, i.e. of Snape being to blame for his loss of the DADA job, and gives him the Map back because he was "not your Professor anymore"... The next person to come in (p.457) was Dumbledore (knowing of both his werewolf status and, presumably, of the events of the night before at least from Snape's PoV, including the lack of potion), who then appears rather more curt with Lupin than usual: Quote from: PoA, p.457ff. There was a knock at the door. Harry hastily stuffed the Marauder's Map and the Invisibility Cloak into his pocket. It was Professor Dumbledore. He didn't look surprised to see Harry there. 'Your carriage is at the gates, Remus,' he said. 'Thank you, Headmaster.' Lupin picked up his old suitcase and the empty Grindylow tank. 'Well - goodbye, Harry,' he said, smiling. 'It has been a real pleasure teaching you. I feel sure we'll meet again at some time. Headmaster, there is no need to see me to the gates, I can manage ...' Harry had the impression that Lupin wanted to leave as quickly as possible. 'Goodbye then, Remus,' said Dumbledore soberly. Lupin shifted the Grindylow tank slightly so that he and Dumbledore could shake hands. Then, with a final nod to Harry, and a swift smile, Lupin left the office. Hmm, does this sound like a dismissal of a dear colleague, "forced" by Snape's blabbing the details of a werewolf teacher (whom Dumbledore had so far protected both in his school years and as a teacher), or is Lupin - after "resigning first thing in the morning" - basically been sent away by a Headmaster who has run out of patience with him? Nyctalus Thanks for the quotes. Serpentine! Well it's Snape the Scapegoat all over again, isn't it? The old bullying victim is useful for any excuses... When Lupin mentions Snape's 'letting slip' the news, his colleague is of course doing this because he didn't get the Order of Merlin (!) But the presumed parents sending owls (which is still speculation at this point, although rather likely), they do have a point about Lupin being dangerous to the students... The Marauders seem to think they know an awful lot about Snape's motives; Sirius basically does the same thing in OotP, when he tries to explain away the bullying of Snape in their school years with the 'fact' that Snape was jealous of James. I defintely think it was Dumbledore who sent away the teacher who had broken his trust and put the kids in danger, although he still made Lupin the favour of keeping him out of Azkaban... But I sure would like to know what Lupin did to regain enough trust from Dumbledore to be sent out as a werewolf spy in HBP... Was that his second or his third chance? B Scorp Back to Lupin: One thing that has always bothered me about how Lupin blames Snape for “letting it slip” to the Slytherine house the next morning. Yet- If I recall correctly- Snape mentioned it in front of and Fudge was not shocked about the wolf news. It would have to be known as soon as Snape got back to the castle because there was a loose werewolf on the grounds at Hogwarts under a full moon. They would have to take precautions that night. Snape mentioned it –as was his duty – long before the next morning out of necessity and as his duty in the role of a teacher who just watched the wolf almost attack 3 students. The way Lupin presented it, he made it look like Snape had said it after all was over and everyone was safe. In other words completely out of Spite and needlessly. He encourages Harry’s interpretation of it that way. There is something telling in the fact that Mooney name was first on the map. For one, Wolves run in packs. They are the icon of Group think. I’ve always wondered if Lupin’s dark side was that deep down inside he secretly longed for “the beast” to come out. IN the shrieking shack, I was stuck by how Lupin described the pain of the transformations and the idea that since he was holed up in the shack he began to “cut and scratch him self” this reminds me of Snape/Harry’s semi- self destruction in OOP and SWM. When they are isolated, they take it out on themselves to some degree. But a lot of what Lupin described in that shack was not the consequence of the transformation but of being locked up and what his friends provided – the marauders- was freedom from that. They enabled the beast so he could get out and roam at the risk of someone else being attacked. I also am fascinated in what it is that drew Severus Snape to the shack in his schooldays and wonder if there wasn’t some other connection he felt- even subconsciously- to it. Did Severus Snape have a kind of self-loathing death wish as a teen? Was he looking to get into trouble to some degree and is that the real reason he resented James for saving him? subtle science I'd say that there is no evidence in the HP books that Snape had a self-loathing death wish; it's far more likely that he was looking for solid proof of the Marauders' rule breaking and had hopes of getting rid of them. The HBP's Potions book would serve as evidence that Snape had no desire to die, nor did he hate himself--it might be slight, but it's more of an indication than anything that serves for self loathing death wish. And, of course, there is Snape's willingness to work with both Lupin and Sirius--neither of whom can let go of the past and who behave, when they interact with Snape, as if they are still the Marauders and can victimize Snape. It is Snape who makes the strongest attempt to overcome his past. Silver Ink Pot I don't think Snape had a death wish - he didn't know there was a werewolf in there. Sirius knew Snape was "curious," and that's what led him there, just as it led him to write his own formulas in the HBP book, in my opinion. I think you are totally right about Lupin and the fact that Snape did not "get him fired." Lupin resigns because he had to tell Fudge that he was a werewolf. All of that was Lupin's own fault because he didn't drink his potion, and that was in the terms of his employment. Case closed - he got himself sacked. *** Going back to Bscorp's thought about Lupin being "Leader of the Pack," it's really interesting. We think of Lupin in the background, but his insult to Snape was the first one to come out of the Map, and James "Agreed with Mr. Moony." So there is a sense that Lupin might not have been overtly hostile to Snape, but he didn't really mind seeing his friends bully him in order to keep his secret. He may have really disliked Snape, instead of being indifferent as he appears. Nyctalus I'd imagine Lupin as being quite indifferent about Snape... If the the "pack" was against Snape, Lupin wouldn't object; he would rather chime in to secure his position within the pack, even if bullying activities weren't among his main interests. He might have felt a bit guilty about not doing his prefect duty, but I don't see him having any deeper concern for Snape as a person. After all, young Snape could never have provided young Lupin with what he felt the need of anyway; a sense of belonging and "fitting in" somewhere, so why stick up for him and risk consequences from the rest of the pack?

comments: Poke a delusional shipper

Comments:

nevermore Link: (Link) Time: 2010-03-01 04:58 pm (UTC)

Yes, how dare Lupin suggest Neville make Boggart!Snape look funny after Snape PUBLICALLY HUMILIATED THE POOR KID in front of Lupin! It just shows that unlike Snapefen, Lupin doesn't think the fact he was picked on in high school is a justification for humiliating an insecure and emotionally damaged child in your adulthood! (And imagine what Lupin must have thought when Neville revealed Snape was HIS WORST FEAR. Like really, Snape picks on this kid SO much that Neville fears him worse than any magical creature and even the people that tortured his parents! That there just revealed to Lupin how awful Snape is to Nev on a regular basis) Lupin may feel sorry about what he did to Snape, but he's smart enough to recognize this doesn't excuse Snape from being awful to his students. Neville's boggart was Snape. You need to make a Bogart funny. What else was going to make Snape look hilarious? A chicken suit? ALSO OMG LUPINS INSULT TO SNAPE WAS FIRST THIS MEANS SO MUCH SYMBOLICALLY except for the part where it doesn't! Also, OMG!!! He didn't drink the Potion in front of him! Couldn't have been because Snape was acting all glaring and skulky and glaring at Harry and dropping werewolfy hints. And I love how the facepulling about the potion somehow means Snape in their eyes. Clearly, sugar must make Snape useless too. And of course, we're all forgetting Snape got Lupin fired out of pure spite and prejudice. He totally gets a pass on that. And Lupin gets no credit for being cool about it and not holding a grudge, despite the fact this put him out of work her severely needed for survival and made him get hatemail and all sorts of awful stuff to boot.

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nevermore Link: (Link) Time: 2010-03-01 05:06 pm (UTC)

Haha, yes. Dumbledore fired Lupin and Lupin totes lied about Snape letting it slip about the werewolves. Because it's not like earlier Snape had expressly given a lesson on werewolves for the purpose of outing Lupin. It's not like he was bitter and angry and crazed after the fiasco of the night before. And Dumbledore regularly fires people.

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indis_earfalas Subject: Re: duj was on to Remus years ago, people. Link: (Link) Time: 2010-03-02 01:01 am (UTC)

Where do I go to find it?

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mariem_1 Subject: Re: duj was on to Remus years ago, people. Link: (Link) Time: 2010-03-02 04:21 am (UTC)

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/3660537/1/Turncoat

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indis_earfalas Subject: Re: duj was on to Remus years ago, people. Link: (Link) Time: 2010-03-02 05:04 am (UTC)

Thanks. That was ... interesting. On its own, it's actually OK if you're into writing about opposite day and all ... it's not until after a read through of the profile and a skim over the rest of the fics that ... well. Yeah. JKR's HP 7 was morally abhorent ... but Hermione G and Severus S is the order of the day? OK then.

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quantumreality Subject: Re: duj was on to Remus years ago, people. Link: (Link) Time: 2010-03-02 06:36 am (UTC)

I wonder if duj realizes how inappropriate that relationship is, though it is somewhat less so if Hermione has left Hogwarts by the time anything gets started.

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indis_earfalas Subject: Re: duj was on to Remus years ago, people. Link: (Link) Time: 2010-03-02 07:52 am (UTC)

Well, there's inferences on HIS side as early as HP 4. http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2092045/1/The_Old_Anger ... and then there's the lovely one that makes Ginny out to be the worlds biggest slut and god knows what else. There's actually quite a lot of "inappropriate" scattered through the whole mess, and I really shouldn't give a SHIT because I write things equally inappropriately in other direction ... I think it's just the "holier than thou" tone of the profile. Ugh.

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quantumreality Subject: Re: duj was on to Remus years ago, people. Link: (Link) Time: 2010-03-02 08:02 am (UTC)

Well, culturally, the West tends to frown on teacher/student relationships for a number of reasons, and as a person who grew up in Western culture I'm influenced by that. I agree that a deeper annoyance is that duj's overall tendency is toward self-righteousness in writing about Harry Potter.

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indis_earfalas Subject: Re: duj was on to Remus years ago, people. Link: (Link) Time: 2010-03-02 11:51 pm (UTC)

Oh hell no. If I read something, and I like it, there's a chance that I'm going to like the ficcers other stuff too; so I always check the bio. If the bio isn't annoying as shit I'll happily go and read everything ... if it IS annoying as shit I might read one or two fics just to see if it's ONLY the bio that's that way, and usually it's not just the bio so I don't bother with the rest.

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ikabod Subject: Re: duj was on to Remus years ago, people. Link: (Link) Time: 2010-03-02 07:23 pm (UTC)

That could actually be a fairly interesting take...evil Lupin is an idea that could be fun to play with in an AU. But, it's ruined for me by thinking that the author was presenting her own distorted view of characterization rather than exploring an AU possibility.

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ekaterinv Subject: Re: duj was on to Remus years ago, people. Link: (Link) Time: 2010-03-03 12:31 am (UTC)

"Former teachers" is good. I also like "immature, controlling assholes" and "vile excuses for human beings".

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quantumreality Link: (Link) Time: 2010-03-01 06:51 pm (UTC)

But trying to get Remus Lupin fired (even though later, in private, Lupin did admit that his mistake had posed a grave danger to students) is a sign of how Severus Snape is so Merciful, so Caring, that he wanted to selflessly perform a great public service! *snort* Puh-lease! Snape could easily have saved Lupin the embarrassment and trusted that Lupin would resign for unspecified personal reasons (and he did resign anyway, feeling very strongly about the events in the Shrieking Shack). Snape saw an opportunity to get even, and he took it. Because inside he's still twelve years old and acts like it on occasion.

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dontgiveahoot Link: (Link) Time: 2010-03-03 08:06 am (UTC)

You win a new internet for being 200% RIGHT.

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quantumreality Link: (Link) Time: 2010-03-01 06:47 pm (UTC)

And even Sirius Black lays it out rather plainly, that they were berks and idiots (at times, I would add) at that age. So it's not like Sirius didn't wise up a little and have some sober second thoughts about how his life had gone prior to being in Azkaban. :|

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ekaterinv Link: (Link) Time: 2010-03-01 09:51 pm (UTC)

Pettigrew always attached himself to the most powerful people around. He never liked anyone, he just used them. I don't think it was any more complex than that: Voldemort was taking over, so to save his own skin he betrayed his friends. Peter was always just a selfish coward. There are lots of people out there like him.

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beccastareyes Link: (Link) Time: 2010-03-01 10:17 pm (UTC)

Part of the problem is it doesn't jive with the Sorting Hat's assessment by putting him in Gryffindor. Though, I wonder -- if one was brave, but inherently selfish and not possessing pride worth dying for, how would you tell the bravery without some fear to stand against? Peter's first goal seems to be his own immediate self-preservation, and secondary goals are more long-term and more for comfort. Peter doesn't seem to care much about his own pride, or about others, or about ideals -- he doesn't seem to mind being the 'lackey', and might have found it safer than being the ringleader in school. It makes it hard to judge his bravery, since we see him showing fear, but mostly as a submissive gesture. (In other words, it went along with his goals to show fear, so he would have no reason to quash it with bravery.) About the closest to courage we see from Peter is the fact he was willing to cut his own hand off since Voldemort was all 'do it, or you are no use to me'*. Which is close to ruthlessness, which is more of a Slytherin trait. * Not dismissing this -- it might be a clearly self-preservation act given Voldemort, but it takes a lot of nerve to be able to not freeze up.

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quantumreality Link: (Link) Time: 2010-03-01 11:18 pm (UTC)

I think the Slytherfen who emphasize the self-preserving nature of Slytherins have a point: A Slytherin who was told by Voldemort to sacrifice a limb might not necessarily have waited around for it to happen. Pettigrew's a Gryffindor, though, and whatever trait of bravery it takes to stand there and have a limb cut off to bring back one's master, it was there in Pettigrew when he did the ritual. At that time Voldemort minus a wand was zero threat, and anyone with half a brain knew it. Considering how unwilling Voldemort's Slytherin followers were to bring him back (even Lucius Malfoy seems to have not fully understood the nature of the diary he handed off to Ginny), it strikes me as ironic that a Gryffindor was the one to accomplish the task. I think the Sorting Hat knew what it was about, even if Pettigrew's tendency to quail before others obscures this.

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nevermore Link: (Link) Time: 2010-03-01 11:20 pm (UTC)

He may have begged for Gryf for whatever reason. Pettigrew must have been fairly intelligent- he managed the animagus transformation. Sure, James and Sirius had to help him a lot, but the fact he managed a difficult spell at such a young age shows he had some brains goin' on.

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danel4d Link: (Link) Time: 2010-03-02 08:35 pm (UTC)

I've always interpreted the Sorting Hat as basing its decisions more upon what you value than what you actually possess. Someone who wants to be brave, who views courage as the prime virtue, whether or not they were actually terribly courageous at the time or if they were also incredibly intelligent. I wouldn't even call it personal fanon - it's more just a sense I've got, I'm not really sure why.

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indis_earfalas Link: (Link) Time: 2010-03-03 12:01 am (UTC)

I'm comfortable going with afraid of Voldemort, really. Not everyone is going to be willing to die for their friends, even with what was at stake at the time (I'd like to think that I would ... but who knows?). He dug himself a hell of a big hole, after that, so his options were limited ... (some) people now knew that it was HIM who did the betraying, so he was in danger from them. At least with Voldemort he was relatively protected. Not negating what he did though, not at all. I just find it really interesting. I'd LOVE to know what happened.

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abharding Link: (Link) Time: 2010-03-01 10:27 pm (UTC)

Because he is Snape. Why don't you get that? Everyone needs to bow down and kiss Snape's feet. Because he is Snape. OK, that hurt just to type. And Lupin didn't tell Neville what to see as his boggart. He told Neville a way to deal with seeing his worst fear.

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stumps101 Link: (Link) Time: 2010-03-01 08:04 pm (UTC)

Snapefen, you are NOT Snape. He was a complex asshole who bullied poor innocent Neville for no reason. Deal with it.

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simplefaith Link: (Link) Time: 2010-03-02 01:50 am (UTC)

Clearly friendship for Lupin meant going along with the crowd of bullies, and he actually seems to look back sentimentally to that time of his life. "How dare Lupin not think high school wizarding school was complete hell, like I do!" I mean, seriously? This was the one period of his life that he had people who accepted him and cared for him even when knowing about being a werewolf, before going out into the real world where people are not so forgiving...and he's not allowed to look back on it with some sentimentality? Really? And about the whole "encouraging Neville's boggart" and "faint praise having to do with the wolfsbane potion,"...maybe if Snape wasn't such a total douchebag he wouldn't scare children and be hated by the guy who depends on him (honestly, Lupin was being pretty diplomatic).

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quantumreality Link: (Link) Time: 2010-03-02 04:58 am (UTC)

TBH, for me high school wasn't complete hell, though there were times... Let's just say if I had to do it over again I wouldn't mind the classes so much as the people I'd have to deal with when they entered their I'm-a-jerk phase. :P

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sailorlum Link: (Link) Time: 2010-03-02 12:10 pm (UTC)

Oh, wow...through the looking glass... O_o *brain falls out* *puts it back in* They've taken anything that could possibly be seen in a negative light about Lupin and cranked it up to a warp factor of nine. It's like 'paranoid persecution complex'-apalooza.

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esclaramonde Link: (Link) Time: 2010-03-02 02:10 pm (UTC)

... (note though that according to [Hagrid] Lupin resigned "first thing in the morning", i.e. if Snape spilled the beans "only" at breakfast that would seem to have been after the fact) I love semantics, but seriously? And beyond that, you can't use a quote and then put quotation marks around a word you've come up with so that it looks like they're equal.

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esclaramonde Link: (Link) Time: 2010-03-03 11:12 pm (UTC)

Oh but then he is lying to Harry for sympathy and to make himself look better than Snape

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dontgiveahoot Link: (Link) Time: 2010-03-03 08:19 am (UTC)

The best thing Lupin ever said about Snape was in HBP, when he gave him credit for the Wolfsbane Potion. But then like the true bystander he is, he added the caveat that he "neither liked him nor disliked him." That is faint praise indeed. What? What?! WHAT?! He's given credit and praise where it's due to Snape the Potions Master for the Wolfsbane potion - telling Harry in POA that he apreciates Snape making it for him, and adds that he's lucky because it takes a lot of skill to brew. He simply refuses to lie about his personal feelings regarding Snape the man. How does that make the praise less invalid? Appreciating what someone has done for you on a medical basis doesn't mean you have to automatically adore them as a person. As someone who has medical problems, I can say that I am personally appreciative of every doctor and nurse who has helped me. Does that mean I'm required by some sort of moral law to feel that they're all likeable people? Because I don't.

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The HMS STFU - Bad, evil Remus, poor, poor Snape View: Recent Entries. View: Archive. View: Friends. View: User Info. View: Website (JF-less sailor? Suggest a topic here!).