1. The fic-excerpt rule also applies to posts about forums and LJ comms. Keep it short, please. If you really don't want certain posts on the forum missed, do an F_W-style writeup and link to everything important.
2. I thought the no-trolling standards were clear. Apparently they're not? Do not go from here to there, especially if "there" = a community featured here quite often, like DeathtoCapslock or Snapedom. Do not even go to posts that haven't been reported here, because that's still trolling. The one way around this rule is to be a proper member there and join in discussions with thoughtful posts over a long period of time.
If you see something stupid and you want to respond to it in a way that is not as polite as you can possibly make it, bring it here. For example, say I'm browsing and look at the most recent post in DtC, and see this:
Hagrid shows disdain for everything muggle here as though he were a pureblood wizard. Of course his pretending to be a pureblood is completely different from any half-blooded Death Eater pretending to be pure. Hagrid isn’t even pure human, but he was sorted into Gryffindor. What was the acronym...? IOIAGDI - It’s Okay If A Gryffindor Does It. Dumblesnore’s pet has been trained to utterly reject his giant roots anyway. I suppose JKR’s intended message from Hagrid’s storyline is to advocate culturalism (the idea that one culture is superior to all others) above racialism?
Ugh, I think. How silly. So I come here and c/p it with a link, then write a post explaining how Hagrid sharing in a common prejudice is not the same thing at all as Snape signing up to kill other people of his same ethnicity.
You don't have to summarize a whole post. You don't have to copy many comments. If there's something you want to snark at, do it here. If you don't, you will be banned, temporarily or permanently.
Your points about trolling are well-taken, but... I'm just going to stare at that excerpt for a while, because what.
... Fuck, why shouldn't Hagrid act culturally like a pureblood wizard? It's been a while since I did any canon review, but I was under the impression that Hagrid was abandoned as a newborn by his giant mother and was raised by his father within the human Wizarding World. While he's not genetically purely human, he's culturally so. That doesn't make his disdain for Muggles appropriate, any more than it is for any other wizard, but it doesn't make him some kind of OMG RACE TRAITOR. (What, does the OP think giants are Muggles?)
Also, yes, Hagrid didn't kill anybody, which is a relevant point.
... er, anyway, yeah, I support the short-excerpts/please-don't-troll point that this post is actually about.
Yeah, I guess you could call Hagrid's attitude towards most of the Muggle world "disdain", but, as you say, the important difference is that Hagrid does not go out and torture Muggles for fun. DE apologists never quite seem to get it. Yes, even a lot of Gryffindors and "good" wizards can be racist towards Muggles and Muggle-borns, but there's a huge difference between pointing at a turn-stile or electric fireplace and going "lolmuggles" and putting on robes and masks to lynch people.
I don't like the Muggle poking in the books. I don't like it when Hagrid and McGonagill say things that are derogatory about Muggles. It is too close to racism for me, but and this is the big but, there is no real hatred in what they say. In POA when Harry has to get permission from the Dursley's to visit Hogsmeade, he's not told the permission doesn't count be cause Vernon is a Muggle. He doesn't have permission from his legal guardian and that is that, he can't go. Hagrid doesn't march through London and not pay his way, he pays his fares on the transport, he may not understand Muggle money but he uses it anyway. These little things show repect for a world that Hagrid and McGonagill don't live in but who's rules are followed. Also they do not display hatred for Muggles, they don't know Muggles and that leads to some confusion, but I still don't like it. What I don't do is use this as an excuse for Snape's actions, or the DE actions, or Lord Voldemort's actions, or Draco's actions. The fact that Hagrid and McGonagill have their own prejudices is not an excuse for bigotry and genocide. Why is this so difficult for some people to undestand? summeriris
I don't think wizards' (even well-meaning ones) behaviour towards Muggles is supposed to be something we like if we read the books with a bit of analysis - it is understandable and realistic, given how far away from each other both worlds are, but it is also something that can, if exploited by darker forces, lead to hatred and crimes against Muggles. The problem is, as you say, that some people see "less bad" prejudices as an excuse for defending those characters whose behaviour really cannot be excused.
This, one of the things I like about HP is how the magic world is portrayed. It's not a perfect utopia, and J.K. Rowling never tries to make it look like one. It's just as flawed as any real world society, because it filled with people who are as flawed as any people in the real world.
It bothers me when crazyfen say things like JKR was trying to convince readers that the good guys were supposed to be seen as flawless, and could do no wrong. while the bad guys were all completely irredeemable bastards no matter what they did. All you have to do is open one of the books and read to see that isn't true. HP isn't about ideal people it's about people.
I don't get the impression we're meant to approve of the lack of respect for Muggles shown by non-DE characters. But there's a whole world of difference in thinking Muggles are strange and quirky and going off killing them as part of a genocidal group. As their beloved Sevvykins did.
"What was the acronym...? IOIAGDI - It’s Okay If A Gryffindor Does It."
Can this really come from Snapefendom without a trace of irony?! What about the double standards where he's concerned - James and Sirius are evoler than evol for bullying a peer; whereas it's totally understandable and even a positive thing for thirtysomething "Sev" to bully children under his authority? Being a bit immature as a teenager is a heinous crime, but joining a genocidal hate group is actually understandable, according to them.
lol! DTCL is not a "Snapefendom", dummy! It's obvious you've either never been there, or lack the mental ability to understand what the community is all about. The acronym is meant to criticize JKR's double standard on what is and what isn't moral, which changes depending on "who does it". As in Draco calling Hermione names - bad bad bad, Hermione scarring Marietta for life and not even feeling bad about it - A-OK. HP is a kiddy book, for crying out loud! Its heroes should have some sort of morals, you know, something that would make them better that the villains. But judging by your comments, I suppose this concept is impossible to grasp for the folks around here. Should I simplify it to the max, if JKR wants the kids to believe that Harry is the savior, the ultimate goodie with power of love, she should NOT make him hex defenseless squib Filch from behind! This is not a thing a knightly hero does, this a thing a real jerk does. In other words, Crouch Jr. is a villain, he is SUPPOSED TO be evil and cruel and when he uses the Imperius curse, it is just a part of his being evil. When McGonagall (a hero of the light side) does the same – for no reason at all, might I add, she ceases to be a good person, she becomes just as evil as Crouch. There are certain things noble heroes NEVER do, such as lowering themselves to the villains' level (or doing unforgivable things). Because when you realize that BOTH the villain and the hero do the same things and have the same morals, you know something is wrong. As an example from RL, the death penalty issue comes to mind – we all know that convicted murderers have done horrible things, killed innocent people, perhaps children, even, and yet – we don't kill them. We punish them, yes, prevent them from harming more people, but we don't take their lives away, don't do the same thing as they have done – simply because we are better than that. JKR's heroes aren't better than that. They know no mercy and no humility. Which would be all nice and dandy, if they were acknowledged as morally-dubious, neither good nor bad characters, which they, of course are not. They are called heroes and good people. I am afraid you people around here suffer the same delusion as JKR does – that you all are Gryffindor wizards – and you judge the books' morals from a Gryffindor wizard's point of view. :) Well, wake up, my friends! Try and look at the books as unbiased readers, and you are bound to see the massive flaws in both author's logic and morals. Flaws the DTCL likes to ridicule, just for the hell of it. :)
JKR doesn't suffer from delusions. She's a writer who invented a world. Now you, on the other hand, my Slytherfen friend, are insane because you keep talking about this world as if it were real and not something JKR invented one day while bored on the train.
Seriously, this is just typical – I am not a Slytherin (if anything, I am a Muggle :p), and my world does not revolve around HP. I study and criticize lots of books and HP just happens to be one of them. I like to visit DTCL because they usually make valid points and the way they do it often makes me howl with laughter. But I digress. Observing carefully, I can't help but notice that you have nothing to say against my arguments. This might be a good sign that my points are sinking in, finally. :) JKR suffers from many delusions, as is painfully obvious not only from her prose, but especially from her interviews. But if it makes you feel any better, she is not the only author who does, trust me. (eg. Tolkien and Card come to mind.) I only used the RL reference in hopes that it might help you understand, not because I have troubles telling literature from reality. lol Quite the contrary, really. Right now I feel like I am the only person on this forum who is able to do so. Oh, and even at the risk of being burned alive by local rabid fans I must say that _invented_ is a pretty inaccurate word, when it comes to JKR, considering she's been known to steal ideas from fanfiction. But of course, to know how little of “her” ideas were truly her own one has to know more of literature than just the HP books.
Interesting? More like a desperate attempt of someone who has no arguments at all, innit? Surely even you have already discovered the enchanting art of hyperbole?
Cite citations or gtfo. --- Firstly: I don't think so. Unless this site is a private land of yours. Secondly: This overreaction is exactly what I meant by "burning alive". Thirdly: However, since you insist on being illuminated and proven wrong, who am I to deny you? Behold, the prove: In In Cruciatu Veritas, Kleio-the-Muse mentions a fiery whip-like curse years before it was used by Snape in the HBP. There are other examples as well, but I am not nearly enough into HP to remember them all with citations. And if you think this is coincidence, let me tell you that Kleio was, by then, a well renowned author, and that JKR herself admitted that she had read fanfiction. But perhaps more obviously, the introduction of “strong females” (“cool” Tonks, “brand-new-spunky” Ginny, “suddenly-an-Auror” Alice etc.) in the fifth book was triggered solely by the fandom and there is no denying it. Same goes for the large part given to Lupin, whom JKR herself intended as a red herring who was supposed to disappear after book three (eg. like Lockhart did after book two), but after he became immensely popular within the fandom, he was brought back in book five. And of course, this is nothing in comparison to the loads of ideas she stole from Tolkien (Sauron/Voldemort, Frodo/Harry, Gandalf/Dumbledore, Ringwraiths/Dementors etc.) and Jill Murphy (The School of Wizardry as such and pretty much all its inhabitants, from Ethel/Draco to Hardbroom/Snape). Stripped of all this, the HP becomes an unimaginative parade of tropes and JKR's twisted morals. (Which are entirely hers. And Calvinists'. But that would be a tad too complicated for you...)
It kind of is a "private land" of mine and das_mervin's, actually, but "[x] or GTFO" is a common internet meme at any rate, you n00b. Further comments may be screened at my discretion.
I've never heard of Kleio and I've been in HP fandom since 2000, so she's not that well known. Triggered-by-fandom-by-your-own-hypothesis is not the same as definitely-stolen-from-fandom, and the fact that you think Tolkien invented that narrative structure (and that JKR "stole" it from him in a way umpty-billion fantasy authors apparently haven't) upgrades you from "lol n00b" to "lol enormous n00b". Citations for Lupin not being supposed to come back after PoA?
Ooh, Calvinists! Yes, I've never heard of them. Far too complicated for my wee female mind.
Secondly: This overreaction is exactly what I meant by "burning alive".
Being called on your bullshit and ignorance is not being burned alive.
Thirdly: However, since you insist on being illuminated and proven wrong, who am I to deny you? Behold, the prove: In In Cruciatu Veritas, Kleio-the-Muse mentions a fiery whip-like curse years before it was used by Snape in the HBP.
You are utter n00b to life if you think the idea of a fiery spell that moves is something new. The movie Goblet of Fire had the Durmstrang kids showing off a spell just like that before JKR had mentioned it in the books. Did the movie writers steal it from fanfic too, you delusional twit?
Moving fire =/= Not a terribly original idea if you've read more than one book in your entire life.
But perhaps more obviously, the introduction of “strong females” (“cool” Tonks, “brand-new-spunky” Ginny, “suddenly-an-Auror” Alice etc.) in the fifth book was triggered solely by the fandom and there is no denying it.
Considering that JKR wrote OOTP (when spunky Ginny and Tonks make their first appearances) when fandom was in its infancy, I doubt this made much of an impression. If it had, where are Draco's leather pants and Snape's Manor? But you keep overestimating your worth in the grand scheme of things.
And of course, this is nothing in comparison to the loads of ideas she stole from Tolkien>
No, seriously, are you an idiot? Read some Joesph Campbell sometime. The idea of a "Chosen One" who will save society is one of the oldest stories in the world. Jesus Christ is just such a Chosen One. Tolkein didn't have a copyright on this. The supreme evil of Sauron who tempts others? Basically Satan.
Oh lordy, and now there are two of them! Or perhaps still one, only trying to look more intimidating? lol
1. for esclaramonde: That's the best you've got? I'm kinda sad for you right now. Never mind, I'll go gladly, no point in wasting my time with someone who can't even discuss books without being petty. But you ARE aware that banishing me won't change the truth, right? Since 2000? Shit, you must be old! And here I thought you were like twelve or something! Well, you certainly SOUND twelve. So far, you (and your friend) didn't answer a single one of my arguments. I really don't feel the need to explain every little thing to you anymore. Just this one – there is a mile of a difference between a narrative structure and taking plot devices and characters, renaming them and merrily selling them as yours. Believe it or not, I'm a woman, too. (Sound like a sexy man, do I? XD) And there is nothing wee about my mind. However, theology and philosophy are bound to be a tad too complicated (or, more accurately, past comprehension) for someone, who isn't able to spot even the most blatant flaws in children's books.
2. for anonymous: IIRC, I never called the bullshit you say bullshit. Be so kind and don't call my thoughtful arguments bullshit, either. It's not polite, and you look like an idiot when you do it.
As it so happens, the fic was first published well before GoF. So no need to n00b on me, sugar. And speaking of fantasy movies and fiery whips, Gandalf battling Balrog much? Thinking about it now, I guess that was where Rowling got her oh-so-original idea. Can't be sure, but it does seem a bit more likely. So, Tolkien is the inventor, Kleio is the one who modified his invention for the HP universe and JK is... um, a very nice lady? :p
All righty now, get your facts straight, you big fan. OotP was released in 2003 (the date courtesy Wikipedia), while the fan base existed ever since the first book went out – it was a runaway success. By the time of PoA/GoF, the fandom was already in full bloom. Draco in leather pants? Snape Manor?! Seriously, you have no idea what I'm talking about, do you? (But it IS nice that you noticed at least some of the most popular tropes infesting your home fandom.)
That's rich – one comes with narrative structures, the other comes with Campbell - and both are equally stupid. I wasn't talking about the idea of the Chosen One, you dimwitted ..... !!! Gah! That one has been around for at least two thousands years. I was talking about the similarities in Frodo and Harry's personalities, background, life story details etc. You are one piece of a dull gal, aren't you? When I said Voldemort was written after Sauron, I didn't mean his being an uber evil guy or the hero's nemesis. I meant his coming twice to power, his name not being spoken out of fear, his ring/horcrux vault of power etc. etc. Are – we – clear – now?
Funnily enough, I believe that there are undreamed-of stories waiting to be told, you only have to let your imagination go and show everyone that new and different can be good, too. (Rather than give up on originality and just repeat what has been said a thousand times before.)
3. For both ladies, in a goodbye's stead: No need to get all kicky just because I'm more intelligent, better educated and prettier than you, and my boyfriend would kick your boyfriend's ass. lol At least you have your firm faith in the perfection that is Harry Potter – and that's what counts around here! XD Over and out. (For good, so... no worries. The field is all yours now. :p)