MinervasCat:
"Just catching up. This was great, SIP, as usual. I've never liked Lily and always wondered why everyone sang her praises so.

As far as I was concerned, even reading the books the first time through, she glommed on to Severus because he could tell her about magic. That was it. She tolerated him as long as he was useful, then, when she no longer needed him, she cast him adrift.

When she told him how she'd been defending him for years, that really made me want to just shake her. But then she says: "None of my friends can understand why I even talk to you." So, she totally excludes him. None of her friends...isn't he her friend -- her BEST FRIEND???

This was a fantastic piece, and put the image of St. Lily the Loyal Friend right in the same garbage bin as the image of St. James the Wonderful.

When Harry and Ron had the argument in DH and Ron throws in Harry's face that he doesn't have any parents to worry about, that was about as hurtful a thing as anyone could say, much less a friend. To me, that would be more hurtful that having my frined call me a nasty name while he is in the throes of total frustration and humiliation. But, Harry forgives Ron -- Harry always forgives Ron, no matter what, and Ron always forgives him. And, as a wise little Donkey once said, "That's what friends do. They forgive each other."

So, Lily was not only a hypocrite, whe was a liar, IMO. She was never friends with Severus. He was a means to an end. She was heading into a world she had no clue about. He opened it up to her and led her by the hand into it. He did this with a pure heart and not for any gain, save her friendship and affection. Not much to ask. She, in turn, gives him the boot. Yet, he loves her until the day he dies.

I think I need to go have a good cry right about now."


Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is the second time I've read wanting to inflict violence on a woman coming from this forum. (The first time when one of them said they wanted to slap Mcgonagall for being convinced Snape was on the bad side in HBP.) Has anything like this been said about a male character that I'm not aware of?


Nyctalus:
"There’s something sentimentally sick with the Lily Cult, as I see it. The Potters were massacred – wandless – in their home, and according to Hagrid in PS/SS, it wasn’t publicly known why Harry survived the attack, only that Voldemort obviously vanished while trying to attack the baby. And yet there’s a statue of the three of them at Godric’s Hollow, which I find a bit weird. They aren’t actually known for any particularly heroic deeds, except “defying the Dark Lord thrice” (which Neville’s parents did too – no statue of them, though). And all JKR has said about it is that they refused to get recruited to his ranks.


Oh, we're the Lily cult now..... :-)


"ETA: One thing that strikes me about Lily is that she appears to have quite a few of the faults that Snape is accused of by many readers. Snape is said to be "unfair" as a teacher, but Lily is unfair to him from start, and yet he wants to be her friend. Adult Snape appears prone to criticizing people, but so does young Lily indeed. Snape seems prejudiced in his view of Harry, assuming a lot about Harry's motives. And yet, that's exactly what Lily does regarding Snape's motives. It seems like the way we are treated as kids might very much color our future behavior...."


And yet you have no problem with Snape's behavior. Yea, Okay.


MinervasCat
"I, personally, think Lily and James deserved each other. What really upsets me is how she led Severus on for so long until she became popular enough and self-assured enought that she didn't need him anymore, then used his "friends" and the "Mudblood" incident to rid herself of him.

I could see her being upset over the incident. But, to not even make an effort to listen to her "best friend" as he pours his heart out to her in the best way he could, since he always seemed to come unglued anytime he was confronted by her.

Teenage girls are a lot of things: drama queens, immotionally immature, judgemental. One they they are also, is savvy to the attentions of boys. Lily had to know the way Severus looked at her, the way his face lit up when she said his name, the way even Harry saw a spring in his step after she had criticized James (in SWM). She had to knwo he was in love with her. Did she not have the guts to let him down gently? Was that why she took that opportunity to cut him off? Because she did know and wasn't interested, but, since she'd led him on for so long she couldn't find the courage to just say that they would never be more than friends? I think he would have understood that. I think he knew he wasn't doing to ride off into the sunset with the heroine. But to be told that "None of her friends" could understand why she had anything to do with him....how cruel can you get?"


Wow MinervasCat. Can I just assume you know this because you used to be just like those girls you describe, or are you going to pull the same bull every misogynist female makes and say "Oh no, I wasn't like those girls...."


SIP
"I think that line about Severus being "ungrateful" to James is one of most disturbing lines in the whole series.

It's like saying that Harry should be "grateful" to Dudley that he didn't drown him in the toilet at age 4.

Or that Neville should be grateful to for Draco cursing him, stealing his remembrall, and calling him a "fat arse."

Or Hagrid should be grateful to Tom Riddle for accusing him of murder, getting him expelled, and getting his wand snapped so he couldn't do magic anymore.

That sounds crazy, though, doesn't it? To me, Lily sounds crazy. I bet Snape thought Sirius had confunded her, just as later he thinks Sirius had confunded the Trio.

Should he be "grateful" for the de-pantsing in front of the whole school too? That's twisted."


But....James DID SAVE Snape...and it's not the same....oh never mind!


fifthoffive
"Glad to have found this.

It's amazing that Lily expects Severus to reject his housemates for their bad behavior, yet she doesn't think she should reject hers for the exact same reason.

Many readers seem to believe that the fact that Lily was sorted into Gryffindor is an indication of her innate goodness (along with the Marauders). The whole house system is used to send readers skipping down the garden path - it's easy to detect the heroes and the villains by their house. Some never seem to get over that.

I believe the sorting shows that Lily never viewed Severus as a true friend. She was intrigued by the glib, wealthier, more attractive boys she met on the train. Lily started rejecting Severus from her first encounter with other wizards."


Golddigger since the very beginning people!


"Severus never does this to Lily, regardless her choice of friends. I daresay he had been more damaged by the Marauders than she was by the slur Severus threw at her in his distress. Furthermore, she doesn't seem to have been a target of Severus's housemates, as he was a target of hers. I wonder if Severus had intervened on her behalf."

Yea he does. When she's targeted for the MURDER by the leader of the group THEY joined, and we all know how that turned out for the both of them.