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The HMS STFU -
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| Lily's Hypocrisy. Now with more wank and misogyny.
Silver Ink Pot
One theory I have is that Snape reminded Harry of Petunia, the person who ruined all his fun at home with her discipline. She was also a taskmaster like Snape, and expected Harry to do chores. So to Harry, Petunia let the spoiled Dudders get away with murder, just as Snape seemed to let Draco get away with . . . well, almost murder in HBP.
Since Lily raked Snape over hot coals about Petunia several times and blamed him for her own bad relationship with her sister, it must have really been bitter for Snape to read that letter to Sirius and realize that she didn't seem to love Petunia anymore either. She had left her sister behind, just as she had left Snape behind.
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I really doubt that Severus ever saved Lily from his friends in Slytherin. My perception is that Lily is a cross between Hermione and Ginny, so not someone they would go after. We never see Draco, Crabbe and Goyle bothering Ginny, who is famous for the bat-bogey curse.
One reason Lily comes across as unfair is the way things are told versus "shown" to us in the books. Lily tells us that Snape's friends are young DEs and bullies, but we don't actually see them bullying anyone, we just take her word that Mulciber has done something horrible to her friend Mary.
But when she blames Snape for being just like Mulciber, it doesn't ring true becasue we don't even see Snape bullying anyone as a child, not even the branch scene with Petunia which seems like accidental magic against someone who is insulting him.
ETA: and now we have a new page.
An excerpt:
Nyctalus
Canon, as I see it, doesn't exclude the possibility that Lily also had some really good qualities. It's just that they aren't shown in the books, while I think her negative qualities do show clearly. On page, Lily is always quicker to judge than to listen, while in other characters' mentioning she appears tolerant and uncommonly kind. It just doesn't fit together.
As for the blood supremacy issue I get the impression it was being used as an excuse for Lily to dismiss Severus, independently of whether he actually embraced it or not. Interestingly, this issue is not mentioned at all when Lily first berates Severus for his "friends's" behavior. And yet, it could very easily have been included, for example by stating that Mary MacDonald were Muggleborn.
But in SWM, when the issue is suddenly brought up, Lily isn't the slightest bit interested in WHY Severus would actually call her "mudblood". Why did he think she deserved a slur at all; isn't that very strange, her trying to help him and all? If he disliked Muggleborns so much, how come he wanted to even befriend HER in the first place? And why on earth come trying to apologize afterwards?
Either Lily has problems with her logics, or it's all actually about something else. My guess is that it was never about ideologies or beliefs in the first place, or diverging opinions or even Severus saying hurtful things to Lily or anyone else. It was about Severus never being good enough for Lily, never worthy of anything else than blame. And later it was about James Potter and Lily's feelings for him. Severus approached her first, but their friendship seems to always have been entirely on her terms, and she acts as if he should be grateful to be her aquiantance and even grateful to be alive. Basically, she doesn't need him, and now he's an obstacle, so by the time a conflict does approach, he has to go.
ETA: And, by the way, I think the REAL reason Lily was furious after SWM wasn't anything Severus did to her; it was that she was utterly disappointed with James, that he wasn't the knight in shining armor she had hoped for, the arrogant but noble life-saver she had tried to convince Severus about. Instead, he was even worse than Severus had painted him; Severus was right all along, and now she was made a fool of. How convenient, though, that Severus did throw that slur at her, so the underlying issue didn't need to be brought up...
Quote from: SIP
But the story is that Lily has known Severus since childhood and they are "best friends." When your best friend is in trouble you help them, and not in some half-assed way during which you flirt with a bully. When your best friend apologizes, you listen, and you don't reject them forever just because you've made a new friend.
I couldn't agree more.
Silver Ink Pot
Yes, it would be different if Lily had said, "I was trying to help you, Sev! I was on your side! How can you thank me by calling me a name?"
But no. That isn't the conversation we have on the page. It's all about Lily's friends and how she's had to explain about their friendship "for years." It's been so hard on her.
And the stuff about Mary and whatever Mulciber did to her under the Imperious: Why in the world is that worse than what James just did to Severus?
Wasn't James just as horrible to disarm, petrify, scourgify, and depants Snape?
I think Lily is one mixed-up girl, if she can justify that. If Snape is a racist, then Lily is just as wrong to be indifferent towards suffering just because Severus is (a) a boy and (b) in Slytherin.
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The racist thing is just an excuse to give Severus her final ultimatum. We have no way of knowing how many times she thought about dumping him before this, but the clue is in that line about "years" of explaining to her friends. I think she was ready to let Snape go so she did. It wouldn't have mattered whether he said that word or not - it could have easily been some other reason in the future. | comments: Poke a delusional shipper     |
| | We should just rewrite the opening to this little excursion: "One bullshit theory I completely made up out of thin air and with as little context from the text as possible." | | (Reply to this) (Thread) |
| One reason Lily comes across as unfair is the way things are told versus "shown" to us in the books. Lily tells us that Snape's friends are young DEs and bullies, but we don't actually see them bullying anyone, we just take her word that Mulciber has done something horrible to her friend Mary. How dense is SIP? Almost everything we know about Snape and Lily we get from one chapter of memories that have been handpicked by Severus. Can she read for context at all? | | (Reply to this) (Thread) |
![[info]](http://www.journalfen.net/img/userinfo.gif) mcity | | Link: | (Link) | | Time: | 2011-02-20 01:35 pm (UTC) |
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| >ruined all his fun at home with her discipline.
>expected Harry to do chores
...Keeping this community on my flist cannot be good for my blood pressure.
> it doesn't ring true becasue we don't even see Snape bullying anyone as a child,
Yet we see him bullying as an adult. People who are bullies as adults are often bullies as kids. This is a children's book series, so its something that children are meant to figure out, yet you seem to have completely missed that point. | | (Reply to this) (Thread) |
| (Anonymous) | | Link: | (Link) | | Time: | 2011-02-20 01:54 pm (UTC) |
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| "Snape on the other hand does change. First he changes for the worst after Lily dumps him, then he grows up fast when Lily is threatened and does an amazingly mature and courageous thing to save her. Meanwhile, James was still hiding and waiting for a chance to go out on another juvenile excursion with Sirius."
Mature and courageous.
Mature and courageous
Bribing Voldemort with the death of her husband and son was mature and courageous, guys.
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| I love how JKR was supposed to show us all this random crap from the past generation(as in, before Harry's time), so that we'd have proof of their actions instead of listening to hearsay. "We never actually SEE Mulciber bullying anyone, we never actually SEE Lily acting kindhearted" -- so, with all the extra page-space these walks through 1970s Hogwarts would've taken, when exactly was Harry supposed to get around to his own story? You know, the one actually being told in these Harry Potter books?
I can buy that Mulciber was a bully from the fact that he became an animal executioner for the Ministry, and an active Death Eater. I can buy that Lily was fairly selfless from the fact that she died for her son (these guys trivialize that 'cause it's easy to be an armchair vigilante, but realistically, choosing death when the option to, well, not is selfless). I can buy that James, prick he might havebeen sometimes, was also the kind of guy who'd do anything for people he cares about -- from the fact that he spent half his Hogwarts career working toward an accomplishment he'd never be able to tell more than three people. (They can whine about "glory" and "excitement", but there's no glory if no one knows, and five years is an insane amount of time to spend for excitement they'd only be able to have for another two years; especially for kids). I don't need the Marauder-Era-Life-Story Encyclopedia to just GET THIS.
I'm not getting the logic! Nah, let's not assume Snape might've been a little biased in his opinion. Clearly, every other character in the series whose ever spoken about this era, including Lily and some of the Marauders themselves, are liars OMG. | | (Reply to this) (Thread) |
| | I just realized something, you guys! Do you know what else we're never SHOWN? Harry's birth! So maybe he doesn't really exist and the entire thing is just some sort of crazy, oak matured mead and butterbeer-induced nightmare! "Severus" should never have mixed his liquors like that! | | (Reply to this) (Thread) |
| | The woman is batshit. The amount of stuff we never see would fill another 20 books. We never see Snape being indoctrinated into the Death Eaters, we never see anything he did as a Death Eater, we never see him with the other Slythering students, we never see him going to the toilet, we never see him doing the spy stuff that he is supposed to be doing, (I don't count the beginning of Deathly Hallows, he's not spying there.)Hell, we never see him having lunch. Are we to imagine he doesn't do these things? | | (Reply to this) (Thread) |
| This really is getting very boring at this point. All they do is keep rewriting the same old excuses and BS they have used over and over again to make Snape look like the paragon of purity they pretend he his.
I'm convinced they know they're bullshitting too or they'd have shut up about it by now. | | (Reply to this) (Thread) |
| Now with more wank and misogyny.
Is that possible? I thought they'd reached the hard cap a long time ago. | | (Reply to this) (Thread) |
| (Anonymous) | | Link: | (Link) | | Time: | 2011-02-20 07:58 pm (UTC) |
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| | I actually find this reassuring. It raises my confidence in my abbility to detect BS. | | (Reply to this) (Thread) |
| One theory I have is that Snape reminded Harry of Petunia
Oh hey, a sane theory from SIP!
the person who ruined all his fun at home with her discipline.
...or not. Sanity can't even last a single sentence with her.
I can buy Snape reminding Harry of Petunia; both hate him instantly and abuse him for no reason (from his POV). Their reasons are even similar: bitterness over one of Harry's parents being taken out on Harry himself. | | (Reply to this) (Thread) |
| Hey, so, correct me if I'm wrong, but it was my understanding that Slytherin house, with its focus on blood purity, doesn't generally LET muggleborns in. At all. Period. Lily may very well have wanted to be with her friend, or she might not have had time to think about it (she's eleven, people), but even if she really really super ultra wanted it, it's possible that it was simply impossible for her to be in Slytherin, especially with her character qualities.
(Of course, with all the qualities the Snapfen ascribe to her, she most definitely should be a Slytherin.)
I read somewhere yesterday that jKr says she didn't read the books after they were published. If might be nice if she knew what she had really written before she went on the interview circuit, wouldn't it? Then, maybe she could talk intelligently about what's actually in them instead of what she thinks she wrote, or meant to write.
She's also said that she reread the books while writing them, to the point where she would sometimes buy one of her own books when she was out to fact check.
You know, the woman spent over a decade writing these, and has a huge box full of notes, I'm pretty sure she knows what she wrote! She's definitely more familiar with her own material than the Snapefen, seeing as they keep getting basic things wrong or overlooking repeatedly stated facts that invalidate their theories.
Ahh, but JK Rowling is a giiiiiiirl. She probably wrote them all while feeling emotion and PMS and shit. | | (Reply to this) (Thread) |
| (Anonymous) | | Link: | (Link) | | Time: | 2011-02-20 10:13 pm (UTC) |
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| And Lily knows that Snape would never hurt her personally,
Again, with the Snape and Snapefen tunnel vision. Does that mean it's okay if he or his friends hurt others? Should Lily be honoured that she's safe because she's Snape's token "Mudblood"?
And calling a friend a "filthy little Mudblood" is pretty damn hurtful.
Often I don't think Snape changed for the worse as much as Lily's true colors came out.#
Um. Snape joined a terrorist genocide group.Canon fact. And he didn't change for the worse?????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! | | (Reply to this) (Thread) |
| | In the future, please quote a bit less. Link, quote, sum-up - people will click through to read. | | (Reply to this) (Thread) |
| But in SWM, when the issue is suddenly brought up, Lily isn't the slightest bit interested in WHY Severus would actually call her "mudblood". Why did he think she deserved a slur at all; isn't that very strange, her trying to help him and all? If he disliked Muggleborns so much, how come he wanted to even befriend HER in the first place? And why on earth come trying to apologize afterwards?
Oh come on. It is a very, very rare thing for anyone, and that includes these chuckleheads, to react rationally and calmly when they're called a filthy little ANYTHING, let alone the Wizarding World equivalent of the N word, and let alone from someone who is supposed to be their best friend. When was the last time any of these people had their first reaction to this sort of thing be '...but why do you feel that way, let's discuss it in a calm, logical, rational manner?' They react to well reasoned criticism as if it was a deadly insult, they certainly can't react to insults any better.
Lily snipped back and removed herself from the situation. It is not her duty to ask the guy saying racist, hurtful things to explain his emotional, irrational views in a rational, calm manner. It is not the job of people suffering bigotry to redeem the people being bigots. Lily owed him absolutely nothing. She didn't even owe him a chance to apologize.
Snape was the one who broke that friendship. He said, loudly, in front of her friends, his enemies, and everyone else watching, that he thought she was sub-human, her parents were sub-human, her sister was sub-human, that her very blood was filthy and worthy of scorn, that she was less capable than ANY wizard of higher blood status than hers, that she didn't belong at Hogwarts or in the Wizarding World whatsoever, that she should just be killed or locked away so as not to sully the bloodlines of more worthy and deserving wizards.
That is what mudblood means, as born out by the text, over and over again. Snape regretted that moment forever, and came to be completely intolerant of the word when not playing spy. He would hex the Snapefen for their constant apologia of the term. | | (Reply to this) (Thread) |
| "If he disliked Muggleborns so much, how come he wanted to even befriend HER in the first place?"
Probably for the same reason Strom Thurmond spent most of his life screaming about the evils of integrated water fountains, yet still managed to find the time to impregnate his family's Black maid.
Don't this people ever read the news at all? Or is Snape all they think about all the time?
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| I think she was ready to let Snape go so she did. It wouldn't have mattered whether he said that word or not - it could have easily been some other reason in the future.
Like when he joined a terrorist group that wanted her and her kind dead.
It was about Severus never being good enough for Lily, never worthy of anything else than blame. [...] Severus approached her first, but their friendship seems to always have been entirely on her terms, and she acts as if he should be grateful to be her aquiantance and even grateful to be alive.
"And even grateful to be alive"? That's some obnoxious hyperbole right there. Also, considering how much this person bitches about "show don't tell" in the text, this ::cough:: analysis does a lot of "telling" about the author's theories and not much in the way of "showing" how these are supported by the text. Of course, that would mean reading the text and not the white space in between... | | (Reply to this) (Thread) |
| | Am I being too paranoid, or is it worrying that SIP keeps referring muggleborns as mudblood? | | (Reply to this) (Thread) |
| (Anonymous) | | Link: | (Link) | | Time: | 2011-02-21 07:51 am (UTC) |
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| Anyway, by relying the prophesy to Volders, Snape inadvertently played a part in Lily's death, so he, in a way, had his revenge on Lily, that cold red-headed bitch who was so unfair to him. So shouldn't she and Snape be even?
-LWE
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| (Anonymous) | | Link: | (Link) | | Time: | 2011-02-21 04:37 pm (UTC) |
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| There's too much crap here for me to comment on, so I'll focus on one bit.
The part about JKR not reading her books.
I'm a writer too, and I don't read my books after I finish writing them. Why? Because I know them so well I'm sick and tired of them.
Yeesh. | | (Reply to this) (Thread) |
| ruined all his fun at home with her discipline.
What the fuck. What the fucket fuck. | | (Reply to this) (Thread) |
| Canon, as I see it, doesn't exclude the possibility that Lily also had some really good qualities.
How generous of you, allowing that Lily might not have been a totally horrible person. 9_9 | | (Reply to this) (Thread) |
| | You can't really "show" much outside of flashbacks and the dialogue of other characters when two of the parties concerned with the triangle are dead. Be realistic, butthurt fen. | | (Reply to this) (Thread) |
| | The Lily's Hypocrisy just keeps going on and on with more batshit! At this point, we're going to need a STFU comm specifically for Snapefen. | | (Reply to this) (Thread) |
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The HMS STFU -
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