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The HMS STFU -
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| Snapewives on Snape Character Analysis from COS forums are also wanking about Lily (it's like regularly sheduled wank or something)
http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=127322&page=14
http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=127322&page=15
http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=127322&page=16
Some quotes:
Minervas Cat
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pearl Took
She did. She tells him, and she is clearly anxious about the issue, that she is worried about his association with Mulciber and Avery. Sev brushes it off.
I got a different feeling from that scene. It seemed to me she was a lot more worried about having to make excuses and apologize for Severus than she was about his wellbeing.
She makes it clear then, during the first discussin we see, and, also after SWM, that it's a great burden to her to have to keep apologizing to her friends for Severus because of his hanging around with Mulciber and Avery. She says they use Dark Magic, but she doesn't follow up by indicating any concern for Severus, only concern for her standing with all of her friends. "None of my friends can understand why I even talk to you." I'd hope at least one of her friends, Severus, himself, would understand why she talked to him.
I'm not sure Severus brushed off her comments in that first scene, or became so enthralled by her criticizim of James that he just dropped the subject to bask in that for a bit. Harry notices the change in Severus demeanor while viewing the memory.
With the pantsing, I might think that having his underwear showing and having attention called to it was probably stressful enough to elicit a few unsavory words, even if it wasn't removed until after Lily left.
sekhmetlion
OMG, I was starting to think I live in another planet, or I am really strange person who read a totally different texte in TPT.
Of course, calling a foul name to someone is not to be considered the same when you do it on cold blood, than when you do it while being humillated like that. And I don't buy the "you say the truth when you slip out" argument, I actually think you just shout the worst that is in your brain when you are that upset.
And her reaction, both by the lake and in front of the portrait, was not that of a close friend, it was that of a person who is more worried by her social status than by her friend's well being.
Her arguments, to convince Snape were a mix of "my friends don't like you" (so peer pressure here) and "you are joining the bad side" (so gang concern, but not properly rationalised so that he could understand, just parroting what was considered to be the correct side). None of her arguments was rational enough so that he would be convinced.
Also her attitude in the courtyard when they are arguing, she clearly owns the relationship in a way that it is very noticeable how she stops his arguments about Lupin being a werewolf, but she throws her own at him about how good the Marauders are because James saved him.
I really can't imagine Harry acting like that with Ron and Hermione, and of course Harry would have understood and forgiven. So by the time of their fifth year, Lily, despite being a very good person, was already self-consumed by her own popularity.
Normally when a relationship is broken it is not only one part's fault, but both, other wise a "perfect" Lily would be a perfect MarySue.
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Lily noted that Severus called other Muggleborns that same thing.
That was in the portrait scene, and by that time she had already taken her choice, she never discuss that calmly with Severus, she just throws it in his face when it is too late for him to counter it. I would have been different if she had said that in the courtyard.
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I don't think she considered herself Severus's close friend at that point, as he seems to have indicated that he thought she was dirt.
So you agree with me because she had given up on him before he called her mudblood.
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Why weren't these arguments rational to Severus, though? Or the one's about the Death Eaters? Or Dark Arts?
In the courtyard she didn't make any argument about DE or DA, she only states that what they are doing is evil, in a very dogmatic way, whithout explainin why it is evil and not a laugh as Snape thinks. To convince someone something is bad you must explain why it is bad, not just state that it is. It would take a blind follower to follow such a "command" or statement without judging, and Snape is not a blind follower, he considers himself her equal. There she seems to expect him to do as she says just because she says so, but without elaborating, meaning she consideres Severus a follower.
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I think Lily directly asks Severus questions that Severus doesn't want to answer. It appears to me that Severus is sneakily trying to control his relationship with Lily using methods she doesn't approve of-- namely targetting anyone he doesn't like and suspects might try to be friends with her.
Or rather questions he can't answer, because by keeping silence at the risk of making a fool of himself in front of Lily he is keeping Lupin's secret safe, so Severus is being noble here.
Maybe he tries to control or to be on the line subtly, but I see this as the natural reaction when he feels her slipping away from him. He is trying to convey he is a good person, not as bad as others paint him and others are not the saints everybody think they are.
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In your opinion, maybe. It's hardly a canon fact that Lily was consumed by popularity. I can't see how.
So a person parroting once and another what her friends think of her best friend, and not wanting to listen to any of his arguments against them is not friend-consumed?
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In my view, though, if she continued to be Severus's friend, she would not be perfect, she would be a delusional doormat
Or a forgiving and understanding person who accepts her friend's true sorrow and gives him an opportunity to straight his life just like Dumbledore did.
Minervas Cat
Quote:
Lily noted that Severus called other Muggleborns that same thing.
But, we never see this in canon, just Lily's word for it. IMO, if Severus had been that far gone into Dark Arts and the DE world it would have been mentioned specifically, and also, I think Lily would have distanced herself from him much earlier than she did. But, she still reassures him that they are best friends.
Lily doen't take heed of Severus' warnings about Lupin anymore than Severus takes heed of Lily's warnings about Mulciber and Avery. It is possible that they thought they "knew" their housemates and were safe with them.
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I don't think she considered herself Severus's close friend at that point, as he seems to have indicated that he thought she was dirt. Why would Severus still believe she was his best friend, when he thought so little of her and told her so to her face? Or when he was harrassing people with a birth status like hers because of their birth status? I think she was worried about her social status as a human being. She was in danger of being stripped of all rights or even killed because of the social ideals that Severus supported. I'm not sure why Severus would expect her to remain his close friend after all that, unless he had some sort of disconnect with reality.
Severus did not make the comment to Lily, but to James when taunted about Lily's coming to his aid.
I still do not agree that his outcry during SWM was a "conscious act." I feel that most people, in that stressful a situation, would cry out in pain and humiliation. And, as I said previously, it is unfortunate, but we are not always in control of what he cry out.
I used Ron's statement to Harry about his parents as an example. While it was not "racist," it was an extremely hurtful thing to say, especially since Lily's sacrificed her life to save Harry. I don't think Ron, in his normal frame of mind, would have said that to Harry. But, under the pressures of the quest for the Horcruxes and the things that were still going on back home, Ron cracked. It's human.
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Why weren't these arguments rational to Severus, though? Or the one's about the Death Eaters? Or Dark Arts? What was it in Severus's personality that caused him to think it irrational for a Muggleborn to be worried about the Death Eaters or Voldemort or being called a racist slur? Or to believe that being against the Dark Arts was an irrational concern?
For the same reason his warnings about the Marauders and Lupin were not rational to Lily. These were their Housemates, and, I have a feeling each thought they knew their own Housemates better than the other knew them. Each may have felt safe with them, although there was definite danger in both instances. Each chose their loyalty to their House over the other's warnings.
Being against the Dark Arts wasn't irrational, but neither was being concerned about the presence of a werewolf in the school. As far as Lily being concerned about Severus, until SWM, it is indicated that he did not consider Lily anything but another magical being. He didn't see her as Muggle-born because she had "loads of magic." He tries to express to her that he didn't really consider her a "Mudblood," and, even though he seems to get this point across, becaus he singles her out from other Muggle-borns, she is even more angry with him.
I don't see either of them coming out of that whole incident spotless.
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I think Severus cared that Lupin was a werewolf, but he could percieve that Lily didn't care about that. Her question was about his obsession with the Marauders and stalking Lupin. I think Lily directly asks Severus questions that Severus doesn't want to answer. It appears to me that Severus is sneakily trying to control his relationship with Lily using methods she doesn't approve of-- namely targetting anyone he doesn't like and suspects might try to be friends with her.
Lily asks Severus questions which he tries to answer. From everything we're shown, he is always awkward and nervous around her unless he is talking about Hogwarts and magic. Otherwise he seems to stammer and stutter a lot, especially when she is admonishing him about something. IMO, he wasn't able to verbalize his thoughts, and, she wasn't giving him much time to do so as she was raking him over the coals.
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In your opinion, maybe. It's hardly a canon fact that Lily was consumed by popularity. I can't see how. In my opinion, she doesn't owe Severus friendship, and she's not indulging her popularity to want to break off a friendship with someone who doesn't respect her or her safety.
I don't think she was "consumed" by it, but, like most teenage girls, she was concerned about it. She makes it very clear to Severus that he is a huge impediment to her social standing when she says, "None of my friends can understand why I even talk to you." She has, it seems, already eliminated him from this group.
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Actually, I don't think that makes any sense. It is predicated on the assumption that Lily is perfect, except with the one imperfection that she would not continue to be Severus's friend. In my view, though, if she continued to be Severus's friend, she would not be perfect, she would be a delusional doormat (I don't see her as perfect, anyway, more like a normal human girl, but that's just me).
Lily, like all of the other character in the series, was far from perfect. I have always interpreted her "friendship" with Severus to be based on her curiosity about the Wizarding World and not on actually liking him. That, to me, is why she is so quick to jump on him everytime something goes wrong (the limb falling on Petunia, peeking at the letter from Hogwarts, her embarassment with her friends about Severus, Severus' lack of gratitude for James saving his life, etc.). I've never thought Lily was perfect.
sekhmetlion
However I do think there is a whole part of Snape she didn't like from the begining: the mean part of him, she doesn't like it and she tries to erradicate it, even if she has part in this mean behaviour (because she helped in peeking in Petunia's letter), later on, this behaviour seemed to be increased. But, while not liking meanness isn't bad, it is a defect the fact that she never tried to understand Severus himself, she just accepted what she saw, but never tried to put herelf in his shoes. So when the time came she didn't understand and didn't try to, because he was a social burden to her. As Minerva'sCat said, teenange girls are often very concerned about their social status, and Lily was no exception. | comments: Poke a delusional shipper     |
| From the first link: I'm afraid that I would have to strongly disagree that Severus was responsible for yelling the word "Mudblood," and claim "midigating circumstances." In order to be "responsible" for something you have to be in full control of your faculties, and, IMO, Severus was not at the moment he yelled that word. I think it was a totally human response to be angry and strike out at a time like that. Unfortunately, it was Lily that he struck out at. I think you would have to agree, seeing the scene by the entrance to Gryffindor Common Room, that Severus was truly sorry and would never have done that on purpose, especially to Lily.
I don't excuse his use of the word, but, in times of stress we are not always able to pick the words that come out of our mouths. I would doubt that there is anyone who has not said something mean or hurtful in a moment of sheer and total frustration and then been wholely and truly sorry the moment the words crossed their lips.
Wow. They really are trying to claim that Snape wasn't responsible for his own actions. They are literally trying to absolve him of any and all blame. | | (Reply to this) (Thread) |
| No one, that I've seen, has tried to totally excuse Severus' actions, either the day of SWM, or as far as his being a DE and joining up with Voldemort.
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
REALLY
REALLY | | (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread) |
| | Sorry for the triple comment, but I feel the need to point out that the two things I just posted are both from the same comment. By the same person. First she says that Snape can't be held accountable for shrieking a horrible racial slur at his best friend, and then a few paragraphs later she claims no one's trying to "totally excuse" Snape's actions! Amazing. How do they even remember to breathe with so little self-awareness. | | (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread) |
| (Anonymous) | | Link: | (Link) | | Time: | 2011-02-23 11:33 am (UTC) |
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| "In order to be "responsible" for something you have to be in full control of your faculties"
O I C.
So I guess if a guy gets roaring drunk and then crashes his car and kills a bunch of people, he's not responsible at all? Oh, ok then. | | (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread) |
| (Anonymous) | | Link: | (Link) | | Time: | 2011-03-02 02:04 am (UTC) |
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| | They're right that Snape wouldn't have said it if he were in full control. The problem is, he wouldn't have thought about saying something racist if he were not racist. | | (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread) |
| Argh! I should be sleep!
We're seeing the same thing they do all of the time, they're twisting words from the canon to fit their mentally unstable needs. Lily has to make arguments for why spells to cut someone wide open from throat to scroat or kill them are evil. She has to make arguments for why its okay not to call her racist names. And her saying that about her friends don't understand it shows that she's probably tried to stand up for him before and couldn't think of any good reasons. I know if I had someone calling me the n-word all of the time and hanging out with klansmen I'd have a hard time telling anyone I knew why I was still cool with them. | | (Reply to this) (Thread) |
| We're seeing the same thing they do all of the time, they're twisting words from the canon to fit their mentally unstable needs. They go past twisting onto outright denying when it fits them.But, we never see this in canon, just Lily's word for it. | | (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread) |
| | I also like how they dispute the memories Snape chooses to show Harry as if he would remember these things happening and Lily lying about him or being mean to him and choose to display that. | | (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread) |
| | We're really gonna need a wank comm specifically for Snapefen at this point. It's like they're just going on a marathon. | | (Reply to this) (Thread) |
| I'm afraid that I would have to strongly disagree that Severus was responsible for yelling the word "Mudblood," and claim "midigating circumstances." In order to be "responsible" for something you have to be in full control of your faculties, and, IMO, Severus was not at the moment he yelled that word. I think it was a totally human response to be angry and strike out at a time like that. Unfortunately, it was Lily that he struck out at. I think you would have to agree, seeing the scene by the entrance to Gryffindor Common Room, that Severus was truly sorry and would never have done that on purpose, especially to Lily. Minervascat-to-English Translation:
'I'm posting to this discussion about dear Severus to get my daily fix of typing Severus's name (Which is Severus). I must contribute to every single discussion about Severus regardless if I have anything interesting or even relevant to contribute to the Severus debate, for the sheer Severus joy I get as my fingers Severus caress each keystroke in Severus's name (that's S-E-V-E-R-U-S) brings me Severus a feeling of joy and Severus fulfilment Severus that I can attain no other Severus way Severus Severus Severus.' | | (Reply to this) (Thread) |
| Her arguments, to convince Snape were a mix of "my friends don't like you" (so peer pressure here) and "you are joining the bad side" (so gang concern, but not properly rationalised so that he could understand, just parroting what was considered to be the correct side). None of her arguments was rational enough so that he would be convinced.
In the courtyard she didn't make any argument about DE or DA, she only states that what they are doing is evil, in a very dogmatic way, whithout explainin why it is evil and not a laugh as Snape thinks. To convince someone something is bad you must explain why it is bad, not just state that it is. It would take a blind follower to follow such a "command" or statement without judging, and Snape is not a blind follower, he considers himself her equal. There she seems to expect him to do as she says just because she says so, but without elaborating, meaning she consideres Severus a follower.
Yeaaaah, how about NO?
There are some things which should not require explanations. Racism is one of them. If you need to have why it is wrong explained to you, that's a problem.
I would imagine that Lily certainly would have had a bit of pressure put on her by her other friends. I seriously doubt it had anything to do with social standing, but more to do with concern. I know that if one of my friends was besties with someone who hung out with Neo-Nazi's I'd be worried as hell, especially if my friend was Jewish or a POC.
Given the phrase *~*Severus*~* used during SWM, he clearly doesn't consider himself Lily's equal. He considers himself her superior. There are a thousand other things he could have said, if he was that stressed and humiliated, but he chose that. | | (Reply to this) (Thread) |
| | I like how one minute, Snape is the Drake of the Dungeons--so brilliant he rivals the Doctor in intelligence, now he's suddenly to stupid to realize racism = bad. | | (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread) |
| I used Ron's statement to Harry about his parents as an example. While it was not "racist," it was an extremely hurtful thing to say, especially since Lily's sacrificed her life to save Harry. I don't think Ron, in his normal frame of mind, would have said that to Harry. But, under the pressures of the quest for the Horcruxes and the things that were still going on back home, Ron cracked. It's human. What did Ron say about Lily? Are they talking about the scene in GoF where Ron was excited about fake!Moody's AK? | | (Reply to this) (Thread) |
| What did Ron say about Lily?
Something that was only in the movie, I think. Last time it came up, someone posted the exchange from the book, and it was Harry shouting that his parents were dead, and Ron shouting back that his parents might die or already be dead. | | (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread) |
| Lily noted that Severus called other Muggleborns that same thing.
But, we never see this in canon, just Lily's word for it.
Gee, Snape didn't include a hundred scenes of his running around callinf people "mudblood" in the memories he gave Harry? What a surprise.
Lily doen't take heed of Severus' warnings about Lupin anymore than Severus takes heed of Lily's warnings about Mulciber and Avery.
Yeah...Lupin =/= Death Eaters. Try again. | | (Reply to this) (Thread) |
| About the only thing I agree with here is that Snape did not mean to use the M word in that scene. It just sort of slipped out. But that doesn't mean that it didn't reflect what he thought of Lily and people of her birth. True, I think he may have thought of Lily as the exception - "the one good Mudblood" sort of thing. In many ways that is almost worse then saying something like that deliberately to hurt a person. That is one reason why Lily was so hurt when her friend referred to her that way and Hermione was able deal with it when Draco flung it at her. Lily cared about what Severus thought of her. Hermione couldn't have cared less what Draco thought about her - other then how it related to her safety.
They keep going on and on about what Lily owed Snape. But what about Snape owed Lily? How about not thinking of a friend as somehow subhuman? Not thinking that there is something wrong with her blood simply because of who her parents were? How about not joining a group that at best wanted to put people like her in their place and at worst kill her for "stealing" the magical talent she was born with.
With the pantsing, I might think that having his underwear showing and having attention called to it was probably stressful enough to elicit a few unsavory words, even if it wasn't removed until after Lily left.
I'd agree that calling someone that just grabbed you, turned you upside down and showed everyone your underwear a few choice words is an acceptable response. But Lily was not the one who had just "attacked" Snape. That was James and Sirius. Not Lily. Lily was trying to help her friend. And he responses by referring to her by a racial slur. And even if Lily had taken part in the "attack" it still would not have been right to call her that - but the fact she had nothing to do with it and was in fact trying to stop it makes it worse in my book.
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![[info]](http://www.journalfen.net/img/userinfo.gif) mcity | | Link: | (Link) | | Time: | 2011-02-23 09:18 pm (UTC) |
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| >"you are joining the bad side" (so gang concern, but not properly rationalised so that he could understand, just parroting what was considered to be the correct side).
1. If he couldn't understand "You are hanging out with dicks", I don't think she could've simplified it any more.
2. The "wrong side" was specifically prejudiced against a group Lily was part of. It would take no great amount of thought--and Slughorn said she was bright--for Lily to dislike them on her own consideration. Assuming that she was just parroting the attitudes of others is not supported by the canonical evidence.
3. The "wrong side" later became terrorists. HAI LOOK LILLY AND HER FRIENDS WERE RIGHT | | (Reply to this) (Thread) |
| Severus did not make the comment to Lily, but to James when taunted about Lily's coming to his aid.
In some way, I think that makes it worse. While we're at it, let's break down this "things said in stress/anger and whether you truly mean them."
Mudblood wasn't going to hurt James. Actually, the only reason why I could think Snape said this to James was because he was trying to ~remind~ James that Lily wasn't up to his (Snape's or James') status and therefore the quality of her help was less than the quality of Snape's overweening pride and arrogance self-determination. He was reminding James that Lily has so little social status that her help might as well have been non-existent. She shouldn't even be considered in a James/Snape fight (because they're clearly better). In addition, saying it to James further dismisses Lily as a viable actor.
Now, when you get in really big fights with people, sometimes you say things you know will hurt them, but you don't actually mean them. It's basically picking at your adversary's insecurities. It does happen. It just didn't happen here.
Snape made a comment about status. Sorry, Snapefen, when you make status comments that reflect how you feel about your status, you always mean them in some way. Actually status comments are the ones that are usually more truthful when said in anger, since you're not as worried about seeming arrogant or offending people. He meant what he said. He might have thought Lily was the best of the "mudbloods", but that doesn't do him any credit.
Also, if Snape wanted to make himself feel better by putting someone down because he was stressed out, James was right there in front of him. He didn't have to say anything about Lily to take a shot at James. And I think he did in someway go for James' insecurity: Lily's importance to James. James was trying to make the fight about him and Lily, and Snape wanted the fight to be about him and James again. So basically he decided trashing Lily would make a point to James. He decided to sell out his best friend to take some cheap shot or make a point to his enemy. I don't care if he was in a red rage or he meant it or not, selling out your best friend should never, ever, be an option. Seriously, friendship dead. Once my friend starts thinking this, our friendship is over.
So yes he said it in anger, yes he meant it, and no, it was no excusable because he said to James. | | (Reply to this) (Thread) |
| I meant to add: So basically Snape was like, "Fuck Lily, Imma get mine." At this point Lily probably thought, if Snape could deride her existence as unimportant for a petty schoolyard fight, what if those little douches he hung out with made him make a choice on bigger scale. So she told him, her and them, and not choosing in this case was choosing them.
/rant | | (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread) |
| (Anonymous) | | Link: | (Link) | | Time: | 2011-02-24 03:11 pm (UTC) |
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| You know what I don't get?
Why did Snep call Lily a 'filthy little' *anything*? Even if he hadn't used the M-word, if he had said even just 'filthy little girl', that'd probably have offended her just enough to break the friendship, wouldn't it? | | (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread) |
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The HMS STFU -
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