Quote: Originally Posted by Pearl Took She did. She tells him, and she is clearly anxious about the issue, that she is worried about his association with Mulciber and Avery. Sev brushes it off.
I got a different feeling from that scene. It seemed to me she was a lot more worried about having to make excuses and apologize for Severus than she was about his wellbeing.
She makes it clear then, during the first discussin we see, and, also after SWM, that it's a great burden to her to have to keep apologizing to her friends for Severus because of his hanging around with Mulciber and Avery. She says they use Dark Magic, but she doesn't follow up by indicating any concern for Severus, only concern for her standing with all of her friends. "None of my friends can understand why I even talk to you." I'd hope at least one of her friends, Severus, himself, would understand why she talked to him.
I'm not sure Severus brushed off her comments in that first scene, or became so enthralled by her criticizim of James that he just dropped the subject to bask in that for a bit. Harry notices the change in Severus demeanor while viewing the memory.
With the pantsing, I might think that having his underwear showing and having attention called to it was probably stressful enough to elicit a few unsavory words, even if it wasn't removed until after Lily left.
OMG, I was starting to think I live in another planet, or I am really strange person who read a totally different texte in TPT.
Of course, calling a foul name to someone is not to be considered the same when you do it on cold blood, than when you do it while being humillated like that. And I don't buy the "you say the truth when you slip out" argument, I actually think you just shout the worst that is in your brain when you are that upset.
And her reaction, both by the lake and in front of the portrait, was not that of a close friend, it was that of a person who is more worried by her social status than by her friend's well being.
Her arguments, to convince Snape were a mix of "my friends don't like you" (so peer pressure here) and "you are joining the bad side" (so gang concern, but not properly rationalised so that he could understand, just parroting what was considered to be the correct side). None of her arguments was rational enough so that he would be convinced.
Also her attitude in the courtyard when they are arguing, she clearly owns the relationship in a way that it is very noticeable how she stops his arguments about Lupin being a werewolf, but she throws her own at him about how good the Marauders are because James saved him.
I really can't imagine Harry acting like that with Ron and Hermione, and of course Harry would have understood and forgiven. So by the time of their fifth year, Lily, despite being a very good person, was already self-consumed by her own popularity. Normally when a relationship is broken it is not only one part's fault, but both, other wise a "perfect" Lily would be a perfect MarySue.
Quote: Lily noted that Severus called other Muggleborns that same thing.
That was in the portrait scene, and by that time she had already taken her choice, she never discuss that calmly with Severus, she just throws it in his face when it is too late for him to counter it. I would have been different if she had said that in the courtyard.
Quote: I don't think she considered herself Severus's close friend at that point, as he seems to have indicated that he thought she was dirt.
So you agree with me because she had given up on him before he called her mudblood.
Quote: Why weren't these arguments rational to Severus, though? Or the one's about the Death Eaters? Or Dark Arts?
In the courtyard she didn't make any argument about DE or DA, she only states that what they are doing is evil, in a very dogmatic way, whithout explainin why it is evil and not a laugh as Snape thinks. To convince someone something is bad you must explain why it is bad, not just state that it is. It would take a blind follower to follow such a "command" or statement without judging, and Snape is not a blind follower, he considers himself her equal. There she seems to expect him to do as she says just because she says so, but without elaborating, meaning she consideres Severus a follower.
Quote: I think Lily directly asks Severus questions that Severus doesn't want to answer. It appears to me that Severus is sneakily trying to control his relationship with Lily using methods she doesn't approve of-- namely targetting anyone he doesn't like and suspects might try to be friends with her.
Or rather questions he can't answer, because by keeping silence at the risk of making a fool of himself in front of Lily he is keeping Lupin's secret safe, so Severus is being noble here. Maybe he tries to control or to be on the line subtly, but I see this as the natural reaction when he feels her slipping away from him. He is trying to convey he is a good person, not as bad as others paint him and others are not the saints everybody think they are.
Quote: In your opinion, maybe. It's hardly a canon fact that Lily was consumed by popularity. I can't see how.
So a person parroting once and another what her friends think of her best friend, and not wanting to listen to any of his arguments against them is not friend-consumed?
Quote: In my view, though, if she continued to be Severus's friend, she would not be perfect, she would be a delusional doormat
Or a forgiving and understanding person who accepts her friend's true sorrow and gives him an opportunity to straight his life just like Dumbledore did.
Quote: Lily noted that Severus called other Muggleborns that same thing.
But, we never see this in canon, just Lily's word for it. IMO, if Severus had been that far gone into Dark Arts and the DE world it would have been mentioned specifically, and also, I think Lily would have distanced herself from him much earlier than she did. But, she still reassures him that they are best friends.
Lily doen't take heed of Severus' warnings about Lupin anymore than Severus takes heed of Lily's warnings about Mulciber and Avery. It is possible that they thought they "knew" their housemates and were safe with them.
Quote: I don't think she considered herself Severus's close friend at that point, as he seems to have indicated that he thought she was dirt. Why would Severus still believe she was his best friend, when he thought so little of her and told her so to her face? Or when he was harrassing people with a birth status like hers because of their birth status? I think she was worried about her social status as a human being. She was in danger of being stripped of all rights or even killed because of the social ideals that Severus supported. I'm not sure why Severus would expect her to remain his close friend after all that, unless he had some sort of disconnect with reality.
Severus did not make the comment to Lily, but to James when taunted about Lily's coming to his aid.
I still do not agree that his outcry during SWM was a "conscious act." I feel that most people, in that stressful a situation, would cry out in pain and humiliation. And, as I said previously, it is unfortunate, but we are not always in control of what he cry out.
I used Ron's statement to Harry about his parents as an example. While it was not "racist," it was an extremely hurtful thing to say, especially since Lily's sacrificed her life to save Harry. I don't think Ron, in his normal frame of mind, would have said that to Harry. But, under the pressures of the quest for the Horcruxes and the things that were still going on back home, Ron cracked. It's human.
Quote: Why weren't these arguments rational to Severus, though? Or the one's about the Death Eaters? Or Dark Arts? What was it in Severus's personality that caused him to think it irrational for a Muggleborn to be worried about the Death Eaters or Voldemort or being called a racist slur? Or to believe that being against the Dark Arts was an irrational concern?
For the same reason his warnings about the Marauders and Lupin were not rational to Lily. These were their Housemates, and, I have a feeling each thought they knew their own Housemates better than the other knew them. Each may have felt safe with them, although there was definite danger in both instances. Each chose their loyalty to their House over the other's warnings.
Being against the Dark Arts wasn't irrational, but neither was being concerned about the presence of a werewolf in the school. As far as Lily being concerned about Severus, until SWM, it is indicated that he did not consider Lily anything but another magical being. He didn't see her as Muggle-born because she had "loads of magic." He tries to express to her that he didn't really consider her a "Mudblood," and, even though he seems to get this point across, becaus he singles her out from other Muggle-borns, she is even more angry with him.
I don't see either of them coming out of that whole incident spotless.
Quote: I think Severus cared that Lupin was a werewolf, but he could percieve that Lily didn't care about that. Her question was about his obsession with the Marauders and stalking Lupin. I think Lily directly asks Severus questions that Severus doesn't want to answer. It appears to me that Severus is sneakily trying to control his relationship with Lily using methods she doesn't approve of-- namely targetting anyone he doesn't like and suspects might try to be friends with her.
Lily asks Severus questions which he tries to answer. From everything we're shown, he is always awkward and nervous around her unless he is talking about Hogwarts and magic. Otherwise he seems to stammer and stutter a lot, especially when she is admonishing him about something. IMO, he wasn't able to verbalize his thoughts, and, she wasn't giving him much time to do so as she was raking him over the coals.
Quote: In your opinion, maybe. It's hardly a canon fact that Lily was consumed by popularity. I can't see how. In my opinion, she doesn't owe Severus friendship, and she's not indulging her popularity to want to break off a friendship with someone who doesn't respect her or her safety.
I don't think she was "consumed" by it, but, like most teenage girls, she was concerned about it. She makes it very clear to Severus that he is a huge impediment to her social standing when she says, "None of my friends can understand why I even talk to you." She has, it seems, already eliminated him from this group.
Quote: Actually, I don't think that makes any sense. It is predicated on the assumption that Lily is perfect, except with the one imperfection that she would not continue to be Severus's friend. In my view, though, if she continued to be Severus's friend, she would not be perfect, she would be a delusional doormat (I don't see her as perfect, anyway, more like a normal human girl, but that's just me).
Lily, like all of the other character in the series, was far from perfect. I have always interpreted her "friendship" with Severus to be based on her curiosity about the Wizarding World and not on actually liking him. That, to me, is why she is so quick to jump on him everytime something goes wrong (the limb falling on Petunia, peeking at the letter from Hogwarts, her embarassment with her friends about Severus, Severus' lack of gratitude for James saving his life, etc.). I've never thought Lily was perfect.
However I do think there is a whole part of Snape she didn't like from the begining: the mean part of him, she doesn't like it and she tries to erradicate it, even if she has part in this mean behaviour (because she helped in peeking in Petunia's letter), later on, this behaviour seemed to be increased. But, while not liking meanness isn't bad, it is a defect the fact that she never tried to understand Severus himself, she just accepted what she saw, but never tried to put herelf in his shoes. So when the time came she didn't understand and didn't try to, because he was a social burden to her. As Minerva'sCat said, teenange girls are often very concerned about their social status, and Lily was no exception.