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Magically Ridiculous ([info]staroverthebay) wrote in [info]unfunny_fandom,
@ 2011-04-18 12:21:00


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Is the use of "derpy" ableist?
Disclaimer: I initially planned to post this in [info]equestria since it's largely about My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic but I changed my mind and chose to post here because while this discusses primarily MLP:FiM, the issues under discussion are not only unfunny and potentially rage-inducing, it's also something that could be applied to almost any fandom. If I have erred and this belongs in [info]equestria, then I will move it over there, but due to the unfunny issues involved, and the fact that this could be applied to nearly any fandom, I chose to go with the F_W rule of thumb: "When in doubt, UFB"

A little background: In My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic, there is a very popular background pony, a periwinkle-blue pegasus pony with yellow hair and yellowish eyes, and a cutie mark of bubbles on her flanks. She appears frequently but is just as described: a background character; she plays no part in the plots. However, due to an animation error -- accidental or intentional, we don't know -- in the very first episode, she was presented in her first appearance with crazy, unaligned eyes, and the fandom glommed on to her. She is known by the fandom nickname of "Derpy Hooves" and show-creator Lauren Faust has stated that because background ponies have no names, that particular one can be Derpy if that's what the fandom wants.

Make no mistake, Derpy Hooves is hugely popular -- she can even rival the main characters in popularity. Fandom has created a very complex and interesting fanon about her, and she remains one of the most drawn, sprited and written-about characters in the series.

So, I was browsing Tumblr the other night, and came across an unusually vitriolic (and overly-generalizing, I think) comment by a user named "tumblrvigilante" decrying the name "Derpy Hooves" and the entire internet "derp" meme.

The thing is, the "derp" meme and more or less everything born of it (including "Derpy Hooves") makes a literal punch line out of those who are mentally disabled or simple unintelligent -- laughing at someone because of how they look or the state of their mental faculties is wrong and offensive. When you laugh because "Derpy Hooves" does something "stupid" (an ableist term in itself), you are laughing at "stupidity" in general -- you are laughing at something that nobody can help; you are laughing at the way someone was born. The same applies to laughing at "Derpy Hooves" because she has a lazy eye. When we openly laugh at and support these things, we support contributions to a culture that teaches not only our general population, but more importantly our -children- that laughing at people for being disabled, for looking on, for being unintelligent, is okay. But it's really not okay to laugh at someone with disabilities, is it?

In the argument that her "silly" appearance is "cute" or "endearing" -- well, that's a bit appropriative. It promotes the idea that it's okay to dehumanize someone with a physical/noticeable disability into something that makes us smile or laugh, even in what we consider a "positive" way. People with disabilities are not here for our entertainment or amusement. They are not here to make us feel better or to make us smile. They are just here, like you or me or anyone. They are people, and they deserve our respect for that alone.

"But she's just a pony," you'll probably say. Yes, she is a pony, and an animated, fictional one at that. But she is a product of our culture, and she contributes to it. She's being used to teach kids and adults alike that dehumanizing PWD is okay. She's being used to promote the idea that the "derp" meme is unharmful, but the process won't end with just the "derp" meme. It will carry over. Things like the "derp" meme can and have and will continue to be used as support for people who like to use the word "retarded" in a derogatory manner (which is basically what everyone who participates in the "derp/Derpy Hooves" meme is already doing), among several other demeaning and ableist slurs.

It's not okay, this "derp" business. And honestly, if you want to support it? At least come out and be upfront with what you're saying: You're okay with and openly support dehumanizing, slurring against, and generally ridiculing PWD/disabilities themselves.


In other words, tumblrvigilante believes that the use of the word "derp" is ableism, and calling the pony "Derpy Hooves" is tantamount to making fun of her unusual appearance.

The owner of the tumblr blog the comment was posted on was rather confused and taken aback by the comment, and posted a long response on her personal tumblr blog, hayjulay.

Later, tumblrvigilante replies with his or her own long response, further insisting that the use of the word "derp" is ableist and harmful, regardless of intent.

hayjulay replies again, and subsequently the point is presumably dropped by both sides. Both sides have made valid points (as well as some less-convincing points) in argument for or against the "derp meme" being ableist, and it appears that they have come to the "agree to disagree" conclusion.

This exchange between tumblrvigilante and hayjulay has been on my mind since I read it, and I briefly discussed the topic with a few friends. However, I'm curious to know what everyone here at [info]unfunny_fandom thinks. Is the whole "derp" meme an ableist slur, making fun of someone who is less fortunate or something that can't be controlled? Is the nickname "Derpy Hooves" actually ableism in disguise? Or is it all effectively a mountain made from a molehill?


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[info]sandglass
2011-04-19 04:31 am UTC (link)
Good for you. That is your right.

They're still ableist and perpetrate the oppression of disabled people. If you're okay with that, fine. But recognize what you're doing. Part of oppression is language and by using language that is obviously ableist, like crazy, you're hurting disabled people.

WTF is with this community and getting sexism and racism, but not getting ableism?

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]amadi
2011-04-19 07:48 am UTC (link)
This x1000. Thank you.

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[info]napalmnacey
2011-04-19 02:32 pm UTC (link)
Thank you, dude.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]spawn_of_kong
2011-04-19 02:40 pm UTC (link)
I know I'm risking a dogpiling here, but you and I have arrived at common ground in previous SJ discussions, so...

The way I see it, if we go ahead and eliminate words such as "idiot," for instance (a word that arguably has evolved beyond its original meaning), why stop there? Why not remove all words which cast people in a negative light from our vocabulary? Even words that we have used in these UFB comms to express our feelings about people we disapprove of? Or do people honestly believe that such a word as "douchenozzle," for instance, isn't offensive and hurtful to someone, somewhere? Where do we draw the line?

That's not even getting into how words and languages can evolve. Consider the fact that "queer," which originally meant "strange," eventually became a slur against homosexuals, and is now used with pride among some LGBT circles. The same goes for the word "dyke" with regards to lesbians, some of whom now use the phrase "butch dyke" proudly. A word's meaning and implications are not set in stone for all time.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]chikane
2011-04-19 03:31 pm UTC (link)
a word that arguably has evolved beyond its original meaning

The problem is that there is no slur of this kind that will not be argued by someone (usually the very people using the slur) to have 'evolved beyond its original meaning'.

That's not even getting into how words and languages can evolve. Consider the fact that "queer," which originally meant "strange," eventually became a slur against homosexuals, and is now used with pride among some LGBT circles. The same goes for the word "dyke" with regards to lesbians, some of whom now use the phrase "butch dyke" proudly. A word's meaning and implications are not set in stone for all time.

:/ http://www.derailingfordummies.com/#playfair
There's a difference between lesbians using dyke themselves, and everyone else using dyke to attack/mock someone. A big difference, in fact.
Dyke is still an offensive term, just take a look at what people use to attack feminists with. Oh, right. "Feminazi dyke" or "bull dyke".

Where do we draw the line?

The issue isn't that a word can be hurtful (every word can). The issue is that as far as hurtfulness goes, there's two large groups.

Words that dehumanize a minority (or a majority by misogynistic language), and words that don't.

Let me put it another way.
You using douchenoozle just hits the target in question. There is nobody else around you're harming this way. If you use idiot/nigger/fag/trannie/kyke/hooknose or any of the myriad of words in that group, you're not just hitting your target, you're also broadcasting to every reader of that minority that they are lesser humans, and you're furthmoremore helping to make sure that this minority is being thought of as lesser. That's really the issue.

I'm not saying I'm perfect either, I used to use idiot/moron as well. I just eventually noticed that this was quite a bad move on my part, so I stopped. It wasn't really difficult. I think not harming (minority X) is worth the tiny effort to not use a few words and use others instead, you know? :/

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]sandglass
2011-04-19 05:18 pm UTC (link)
Thank you for this awesome explanation, it's really beautiful.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]chikane
2011-04-19 10:03 pm UTC (link)
Ah, you're welcome. It's just jarring how often that has to be explained. :/

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]sandglass
2011-04-19 04:04 pm UTC (link)
Please don't compare words used by the people they are weapons against, such as lesbians calling themselves "Butch dykes" to words that it is okay for others to use, and words that we use as weapons. Or even words that have been reclaimed, such as queer. So not near the same things.

I am really limiting my argument here to "crazy," which is both completely unnecessary, and still firmly associated with the mentally ill. Crazy is not a word to be used lightly, especially by the non-mentally ill, because it is still used as a weapon to oppress the mentally ill.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]spawn_of_kong
2011-04-19 04:38 pm UTC (link)
So not near the same things.

For the sake of curiosity, do explain.

As for the rest, I think we might have to agree to disagree, therefore I won't push the point any further. Peace?

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]sandglass
2011-04-19 05:15 pm UTC (link)
For reclaimed words, they've given (tacit) permission to the rest of the population to use it. For words that, like "Dyke," "Fag," and the N-word, it is not acceptable for people outside the target group to use them, because of the history, lack of permission, and that they are inherently different coming from a person in the majority group, it is not okay for a member of the majority/oppressing group to use them. Crazy has been reclaimed, to a degree. I call myself crazy. But other people call me crazy to oppress me, so it's not okay for you to use it.

And in this case, it's still being used as a weapon.

Seriously, this is *ism 101, why am I explaining it on UFF? The FW community should be past this. It's been rehashed over and over.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]sandglass
2011-04-19 05:29 pm UTC (link)
Also, I totally didn't mean to use othering language there. Them=members of the minority group in question, be they racial minorities, disabled people, women, etc. Basically, there's a quazi-consensus in the homosexual community (and academia, which is a rant for another occasion) that "Queer", for example, is an okay term for general use to apply to people who are QUILTBAG, but there's no consensus that "Crazy" can be used by the general public.

And in order to not be further oppressive, offensive, and harmful, the majority should defer to the minority for control of words that have and are used against them. Not to mention, if you can't think of an insult other than "Crazy", you're not very creative. My favorite is noob, because video games are awesome (and it implies that the sucky person can change!).

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]risha
2011-04-19 06:40 pm UTC (link)
Exactly. I feel free to call myself crazy as well (though I only do it facetiously - I think of myself as having a medical condition I was born with, and wouldn't ever use it, period, for someone who would matches the popular image). I don't even, personally, feel particularly insulted by someone else calling me that, regardless of their motivations.

But I wouldn't ever use it with someone that I didn't know felt the same way and also already knew I was bipolar, and never in public where I could potentially hurt someone else. Just because I don't feel hurt doesn't mean that it doesn't hurt them; and if I help further by minimizing it in popular usage, all the better.

I do slip and use it accidentally sometimes, though. I'm working on it.

It's the same reason I speak freely about my diagnoses to whomever. (Well, not to my bosses, for obvious reasons, though I wouldn't lie about it if they brought it up.) I'm not ashamed of it, and if I can help remove a little bit of the stigma, I might eventually be helping someone who does.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]spawn_of_kong
2011-04-19 07:12 pm UTC (link)
Seriously, this is *ism 101, why am I explaining it on UFF?

Because even though something is immediately obvious to you, that doesn't mean it's immediately obvious to everyone? Because sometimes it takes that *nth time explaining it for it to sink in for some people? Because some people haven't read every single time this has come up on FW?

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[info]sandglass
2011-04-19 09:30 pm UTC (link)
I know you didn't intend for it to seem so, but I have to tell you, this response is hugely disrespectful. Not only to me, but to everyone who has ever explained this or anything like it to you. I don't mean to insult you, just to help you understand the situation we are in.

People in minority groups are constantly being expected to explain themselves over these types of things. These requests express a sense of entitlement: That not only should the minority educate the majority, but that we should have patience and do it over and over, to the same people. I fully understand that it can take many, many explanations for things to make sense and sink in. However, responding with entitlement when someone explains things and then expresses an annoyance that they had to is hugely disrespectful.

I took time out of my day to try to help you understand, because I like the FW community, and you are a member of that community. This isn't something I had to do. You can have Googled this. Or, since finding things on Google isn't always the easiest you could make it part of your routine to find visit places that explain 101 concepts like this (Shakesville is a fantastic place to start, they have many articles for people new to social justice). Failing that, you can choose not to take part in conversations where you are ignorant. Finally, you could be appreciative when someone takes time to, quite a bit more politely than they probably want to be, explain things to you. Those are four options, all of which would show that you respect the people who either know more than you, or disagree with you, depending on just why you asked me to explain why there is a difference between "Dyke" and "Queer".

Just like it is not fair for me to expect you to know everything about social justice, it is not fair for you to expect me to calmly explain to you concepts I feel are beneath the level of understanding one should have when taking part in discussions here. I can accept disagreement, but I cannot accept disrespect and the showing of both entitlement.

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[info]spawn_of_kong
2011-04-20 11:18 pm UTC (link)
You are right, of course. I really can't justify my behavior, other than that I posted my last comment in a fit of annoyance, which I probably should have let pass rather than act upon it. As such, my humblest apologies to you for my being such a jerkass.

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[info]arachnejericho
2011-05-09 05:09 am UTC (link)
I had no idea crazy was being reclaimed even a little bit.

Two of my friends always laughed at me being "so crazy" (bipolar I that had come with a little psychosis after all) and two who insist that I not think of myself as "crazy" because it demeaned me and reduced my condition to something mockable....

Guess who stayed around when things went south for my "craziness" (the first two told me they didn't want to "enable the crazy" and left me to fend for myself; the second two brought me back from the brink).

I still hate myself enough to call myself crazy and mean bad things. Although I'm slowly getting gently pushed out of the habit.

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