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	Well, this just decided me. platedlizard 2011-05-06 02:21 am UTC (link)
	Nook search for 'gay and lesbian' 'yaoi' 'gay romance' 'lesbian romance' I could go on. All easily searchable. When I actually have money it looks like I'm getting a Nook. (Reply to this)(Thread)

	Re: Well, this just decided me. sandglass 2011-05-06 02:37 am UTC (link)
	I know it has nothing to do with you, or the point, but oh man, the first result for "gay and lesbian" is "Two Dykes and a Man". (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	Re: Well, this just decided me. platedlizard 2011-05-06 03:01 am UTC (link)
	Oh, the male fantasy of a 'good man' having sex with lesbians and making them less lesbian* with his awesome cock. Porn has a lot to answer for, I fear. *but not unlesbian because he still wants to see some hot girl on girl action (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: Well, this just decided me.

ekaterinv
2011-05-09 08:41 pm UTC (link)

Or the common het male fantasy about having sex with two hot women at once. Which is really... not evil at all. And which happens in reality quite a lot actually. (As does 2 men and one woman.)

I also know a LOT of women who write and fantasize about 2 girls/one guy. And a lot of men who enjoy just watching hot women get it on. And a lot of women who enjoy watching and reading about hot men getting it on. I even think that's there's a Japanese name for a subsection of that which makes lots of money, and is written for and bought largely by women. Whatever could it be...

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	Re: Well, this just decided me. keri 2011-05-06 06:42 am UTC (link)
	Searching for gay porn/sexy romance? easy! searching for lesbian porn/sexy romance? sorry, 4 out of 5 will have a man involved or is written for the male gaze. Absolutely drives me crazy. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	Re: Well, this just decided me. sandglass 2011-05-06 07:04 am UTC (link)
	4 out of 5! My, you're being very kind with that estimate. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	Re: Well, this just decided me. keri 2011-05-06 07:15 am UTC (link)
	you're right! originally i hadn't included the "or male gaze" part, then edited and forgot to fix the ratio. should really be more like 49 out of 50, at least, if you account for fanworks (which is where all the not-for-men stuff I've seen was found). :( (Reply to this)(Parent)

	Re: Well, this just decided me. chikane 2011-05-08 09:04 am UTC (link)
	Sad but true, mostly. So glad for Yuri Hime, really, I am. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	Re: Well, this just decided me. keri 2011-05-08 04:09 pm UTC (link)
	Lililicious and Dynasty do scans from there, don't they? But there's one mag that they do which seems to be entirely schoolgirl "romantic two-girl friendships" that drives me crazy. especially compared to all the BL available (which, while not exactly realistic, doesn't force some idealized pure virgin state on the characters) (Reply to this)(Parent)

	Kindle store searches txvoodoo 2011-05-08 01:34 am UTC (link)
	Yaoi - 292 hits vs Nook's 149 Gay and lesbian - 3,497 hits vs Nook's 3,092 Gay Romance - 4,688 hits vs Nook's 1,900 Lesbian Romance - 1,498 hits vs Nook's 1,542 (Nook wins one!) All easily searchable. Just go to the Kindle store on Amazon. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	Re: Kindle store searches platedlizard 2011-05-08 01:50 am UTC (link)
	I'm less concerned about over all numbers than I am censorship. Which Amazon seems to be doing failistic regularity. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	Re: Kindle store searches txvoodoo 2011-05-08 02:06 am UTC (link)
	Surely the numbers would suggest that it's not censorship, but something else? Is it possible that these works step over a line? I also have problems with calling this censorship. (Reply to this)(Parent)

Re: Kindle store searches

txvoodoo
2011-05-08 02:10 am UTC (link)

Here's the thing (and forgive me if I'm a bit incoherant, my blood sugar's really low right now) that bugs me. Amazon, and any company, have the right to set up standards.

Now, Amazon has ALWAYS sold lgbt merchandise. Always. It was often the only way I could purchase it in the past, depending on where I lived. Since I've spent a lot of the past several years housebound, it's STILl been that way.

I get annoyed at the blind labelling which is going on here.

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Re: Kindle store searches

platedlizard
2011-05-08 03:58 am UTC (link)

You know, if you had actually read the links you'd see that they were pulling works they found 'objectionable' and forcing the publishers to either change the fucking content or delete chapters before they would put it back up on Kindle. Works that they were fine selling as-is in paper formate. And yeah, an astonishingly large portion of said works were LGBTQ works, whereas considerably more pornographic heterosexual stuff was left UNTOUCHED on Kindle.

And if you are annoyed, don't fucking take it up with me. Start your own sub-thread about it.

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Re: Kindle store searches

txvoodoo
2011-05-08 04:04 am UTC (link)

I read the links, but hey, thanks for assuming! Have a cookie.

They didn't force them to change their content. They said (paraphrasing) "if you want to sell on Amazon, it won't be this content." I know that probably enrages you, but it's NOT the same thing.

There was a difference between this content and the rest. This was yaoi.

What you seem to have an issue with is Amazon deciding what they will and won't sell, and yet that's a right every retailer has. If I had a store, I wouldn't sell evangelical christian stuff, or anything by Glenn Beck, or (ad infinitum). That'd be my right.

I know it's a cliche, but this DOES lead onto my thoughts on yaoi, and frankly, I don't have a problem with them saying no to it. It's probably realtaed to my own issues of having been assaulted at a very young age, but there ya go. Content that sexualizes underage people, which is aimed to be sold at overage people, I have issues with that.

I am annoyed, and I think I'll take it up right here (policing much? THANKS). Because you're misrepresenting things.

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Re: Kindle store searches

platedlizard
2011-05-08 04:17 am UTC (link)

aand mysteriously the only 'content' they don't want to sell is explict LGBT stuff. Explicit het stuff is a-okay! and this somehow isn't censor-ship? WTF?

http://theyaoireview.com/2011/05/03/yaoi-news-kindle-bans-some-yaoi-titles/

Read the comments. They are censoring chapters. So yes, if the publishers wants to sell something through Kindle they have to alter the work and take out the objectionable stuff. I am not misrepresenting what's going on. And it's just yaoi and LGBTQ stuff, hard-core het comics are still on Kindle, so I'm calling BS on the 'content' issue.

And pardon me for getting pissed at you for the snarky way you replied to me. If you didn't mean it that way, I apologize, but it came off very insulting.

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Re: Kindle store searches

txvoodoo
2011-05-08 04:43 am UTC (link)

Yes, it's not censorship. I mean, ok, you may see it as such, but I don't. I see censorship as something which is imposed by the state. These things are still available for purchase elsewhere.

The chapters were sold separately, so apparently it was the chapters with the more explicit content which were declined. It's not the same as an entire book being sold & them saying "oh hey, edit this book." I know that to the *reader* it's the same, but to Amazon, each is a unique product. In all likelyhood, if the work had been sold as 1 piece, in its entirety, they wouldn't have approved it for sale.

Annoyance != snark. Disagreement != snark. You and I disagree. And my response to your response got more heated because I felt it was really ironic that you were trying to tell me what/where I could express my thoughts while protesting putative censorship.

Another thing that irks me about this is that when we've had Amazon (and other) company wanks before, there's a big outcry at the outset, and then NOTHING when the situation is resolved. Shouldn't we post updates? The deranking thing a few years ago was resolved, the "omg Amazon took 1984 off my Kindle!!" turned out to be a copyright issue (and I'm pretty sure no one has an issue with that, right?). But all that exists in our collective wank memory is "AMAZON SUCKS. Use B&N!"

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Re: Kindle store searches

chikane
2011-05-08 09:02 am UTC (link)

Because clearly, when Amazon is being homophobic, what truly matters is that Amazon's reputation doesn't suffer for it.
Poor, poor Amazon, the true victim here. *plays the world's tiniest violin for amazon*

This isn't the first time they do it. Even you admit this. In other words: By now, it's a pattern. If this loses Amazon reputation: Good.

It was not our responsibility to improve Amazon's reputation, it was theirs, by not pulling this shit. Again.
Oh. Oops. But that's exactly what they did: They pulled this shit. Again. If a company cannot learn, people disliking them is what they deserve. As simple as that.

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Re: Kindle store searches

txvoodoo
2011-05-08 07:34 pm UTC (link)

My point is that it's a FALSE pattern. A pattern where we dogpile (and it's not just Amazon, but that's the current one) and make a big kerfuffle and then ignore when it wasn't right to start with, or when it's remedied.

If you can't see that, well...you're just part of the problem.

I'm getting really sick of this entire culture of faux angst at things with NO follow through.

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Re: Kindle store searches

chikane
2011-05-09 09:07 am UTC (link)

My point is that it's a FALSE pattern.

My point is that you're blatantly wrong. The thing in 2009 was claimed to be a glitch (notice that that's actually as unlikely as the supposed "evil hacker" who of course only did it for gay-themed books, or the stoopid french intern) - but sure, had that been fixed immediately (or at least acknowledged as a problem quickly), that'd have been mostly fine. It didn't, though. It took quite a lot of effort to get Amazon to even acknowledge the problem.

There was no followup then because there really was nothing to follow-up on. We knew the official excuse, but the behavior by Amazon was already enough to be unhappy with the company. You need to understand that the PR response of a company can make things worse. In the case of Amazon's fail 2009, that is exactly what happened.

But, you know, if it had ended there...kay. Errors happen.

Whoops. It didn't end there, and they did it again, which this posting is about. Amazon should, by now, know they have a bad track record. Yet, evidently, they didn't really care and did it again. And that is what matters, sorry to say.

If you can't see that, well...you're just part of the problem.

If you can't see the above, actually you're part of the problem by white knighting.
Criticizing a company for their poor PR is not exactly a problem, sorry.

I'm getting really sick of this entire culture of faux angst at things with NO follow through.

I'm getting sick of white knights acting as if criticizing a company was a horrible!thing myself, to be honest.

You need to understand that it is not the customers responsibility to be nice and understanding about where they shop. It's the company's responsibility to make themselves attractive to customers. Amazon is doing a poor job at that, especially when they KNOW they are already under scrutiny for their last homophobic fail.

It's really that simple.

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Re: Kindle store searches

sailorlum
2011-05-09 06:54 am UTC (link)

Another thing that irks me about this is that when we've had Amazon (and other) company wanks before, there's a big outcry at the outset, and then NOTHING when the situation is resolved. Shouldn't we post updates? The deranking thing a few years ago was resolved, the "omg Amazon took 1984 off my Kindle!!" turned out to be a copyright issue (and I'm pretty sure no one has an issue with that, right?). But all that exists in our collective wank memory is "AMAZON SUCKS. Use B&N!"

When the situation is resolved or there's new information, and no one else has posted about it, then why not make a post yourself about it?

I've done some further researching and found this article: http://www.kindleo.com/amazon-pulls-some-explicit-comics-from-kindle-store/

...Many of the now-denied manga offerings are analogous to previously approved titles, according to their publishers, and at least two of the titles in question were previously in the store and only recently received updates that apparently brought them to the attention of whoever happened to make the latest decision. While you cannot fault Amazon for enforcing their own stated rules, the fact that the enforcement is selective and at the discretion of the company without terribly specific guidelines is troublesome.

There is also the fact that one of the Kindle store’s largest sections at present is their erotica section, which contains thousands of depictions of potentially offensive material and remains pretty much untouched. Some have connected the attention received by this particular brand of manga to the fact that it depicts homosexual romance between men. It would not surprise me at all if that fact, highlighted by user complaints from somebody hoping to police the perceived morality of their favorite shopping venue, were what started this whole mess. Since the first I heard of this, however, several heterosexually oriented titles have met with similar complaints.

This definitely leads to the conclusion that no matter how all of this began, Amazon is stepping up its enforcement practices. Will this extend to depictions of possibly offensive content that are not being displayed graphically? It seems unlikely Amazon will be going through the Kindle Store and deleting thousands of selling titles, but to single out one particular area that is no more guilty than the rest is a bit hypocritical.

Now, I would be interested in knowing if there is a common link between both the the homosexual and heterosexual romance/erotica deleted*, but regardless it seems hinky that a bunch of stuff featuring homosexual relationships was targeted first and more often. Perhaps it would behoove Amazon to be more transparent about exactly why these particular titles got the boot (or perhaps the additional information would wind up confirming prejudiced hypocrisy on their part, IDK). I do know that I'm displeased with the hinkyness (I suspect some aversive homophobia may be at play, at least) and I'm displeased with how Amazon has handled the situation, thus far. This is the kind of situation that makes me think twice about shopping with them, for sure.

*BTW: Not all things called "yaoi" in the US are about underage/adult relationships - "Yaoi has become an umbrella term in the West for women's manga or Japanese-influenced comics with male-male relationships, and it is the term preferentially used by American manga publishers." (from Wikipedia).

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	Re: Kindle store searches sailorlum 2011-05-09 07:00 am UTC (link)
	Hm, that should have been "Not all things called "yaoi" in the US are about underage relationships or underage/adult relationships." (Reply to this)(Parent)

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