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ealusaid
2011-07-11 11:36 pm UTC (link)

I'm going to have to assume Butcher (who I don't know squat about) has a history of being clueless, because coming to this cold, it isn't precisely a steaming pile of Fail.

I'm also kind of bothered by the current meme that "the tone argument", when flipped on its head, means any angry or insulting behaviour from an oppressed person is acceptable, and that oppressed people can never in the course of fighting that oppression legitimately hurt privileged people. No, in fact, privilege doesn't make a person emotionally invulnerable, and oppresion doesn't make you always morally right.

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sepiamagpie
2011-07-11 11:48 pm UTC (link)

I think he does, I'm remembering something in the foggy recesses of my brain.

I think I'm gonna give the original 'fuck you'er a pass here, since it was a journal entry, not actually sent out to him. Otherwise I'm in real trouble when Marvel finds out what I say when I'm giving people x-men details. (It starts out oh and this part was cool, and then ends in drinking and fuck them, fuck them in their stupid blow everyone up in a bus faces).

Er, what I'm trying to say, if the person had messaged him with a 'fuck you!', I'd be feeling less charitable.

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	ealusaid 2011-07-11 11:51 pm UTC (link)
	I am totally behind anyone's ability to tell anyone else to fuck themselves. On the other hand, the "You must take being told to fuck yourself graciously because it is the cry of the oppressed!" crowd is getting the side-eye from me. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	sepiamagpie 2011-07-11 11:53 pm UTC (link)
	I'll stick to specific situations. My reptile brain overheats too easily. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	snacky 2011-07-11 11:59 pm UTC (link)
	This, exactly. (Reply to this)(Parent)

esorlehcar
2011-07-12 07:51 pm UTC (link)

That's not what the tone argument is, though. It's pointing out behavior exactly like Jim Butcher's here--refusing to accept as valid any of the legitimate issues this person raised because s/he was angry and used a four-letter word.

I won't argue the fact that people sometimes hide behind the tone argument as an excuse to be assholes--the social justice movement, like any other movement, is comprised of people, and people tend to be assholes--but I don't see how that's the case here. Butcher is using the tone argument in a classic way--"You weren't nice enough when you called me out on my racism, therefore nothing you said counts, you are a bad, mean person, and I am a victim of the PC brigade."

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	rosehiptea 2011-07-12 12:08 am UTC (link)
	Yeah, if it wasn't sent directly to him I totally get thinking he should calm down about it. Also I should be hiding from Kohta Hirano about now. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	eleutheria 2011-07-12 12:41 am UTC (link)
	Right, it's a journal entry, not author mail/comments. Also, it was a long and detailed journal entry that gave a lot of detailed information about what he got wrong, so it wasn't just a "fuck you". I definitely think it's fair to say "get over the four words you don't like and actually read the real critique". (Reply to this)(Parent)

	sepiamagpie 2011-07-11 11:48 pm UTC (link)
	Watch me not address the rest. I'm a fucking ninja, man. A ninja with nothing good to say yet. (Reply to this)(Parent)

airawyn
2011-07-12 12:14 am UTC (link)

Well, it’s someone ranting on their personal blog, something they probably never expected him to look at. It’s not quite the same as a letter sent directly to the author.

Also, an entirely different person tried to engage him rationally after he reacted to the first post, and he still dismissed that person. I understand the kneejerk reaction to someone who’s raging at you, but when you’ve had a chance to calm down and you’ve got other people telling you “No, really, this is an issue”, and you’re still dismissing everything because the first person said “fuck you” then that’s “derailing: tone argument”.

I haven’t read any unfunny wank about him before, but he did name a Native American character “Injun Joe”, so it would not surprise me.

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	ealusaid 2011-07-12 02:17 am UTC (link)
	but he did name a Native American character “Injun Joe”, so it would not surprise me. I TAKE IT ALL BACK. Free range after all! (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

ecchaniz0r
2011-07-12 02:37 am UTC (link)

That made me groan. I mean - argh, you really can't hipster out like that. We're not 'post-racist'. Stupid prejudice and stereotypes against NA folks are alive and well, and while Butcher may not personally have seen them in action, others sure as hell have.

It's not exactly rare either. How in-the-open it is depends where you are; you can get out-in-the-open back-assward-ness or 'ironic' hipster BS, but it's still all over. The fact that it took Canada up until a few years ago to apologize for those disgusting residential schools (if you google these for further details, I WARN YOU, they were often rife with abuse and assault of all kinds--and either way they were an attempt at cultural obliteration) says it all. The fact that a lot of programs run by and for NA people had their funding slashed shortly after that apology says EVEN MORE.

tl;dr yeah you can't do 'ironic' shit like that. Racism is not over. Jerkfaces still equals very yes.

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	sepiamagpie 2011-07-12 02:39 am UTC (link)
	Seconding the warning about Residential Schools. If even my racist as hell grandma thought they were disgusting, they're disgusting. The people running them were a piece of work. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	ecchaniz0r 2011-07-12 02:42 am UTC (link)
	One of my profs at university was a survivor of said schools. Yeah. I have never wanted to set so much fire as I did after he alluded to what was done to friends of his. I wanted to set even more fire after he gave us this utterly humourless grin and said, "And mine's considered one of the better schools." (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

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sepiamagpie, 2011-07-12 02:44 am UTC

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ecchaniz0r, 2011-07-12 02:54 am UTC

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sepiamagpie, 2011-07-12 02:57 am UTC

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cmdr_zoom, 2011-07-12 03:07 am UTC

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sepiamagpie, 2011-07-12 03:11 am UTC

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cmdr_zoom, 2011-07-12 03:34 am UTC

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sepiamagpie, 2011-07-12 03:35 am UTC

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ecchaniz0r, 2011-07-13 12:26 am UTC

ealusaid
2011-07-12 02:43 am UTC (link)

I just spent a couple years working at a program for dropout kids in Canada, 95% of whom were First Nations or Métis. And the racism is incredible, and also at least up here, if the word can't apply to you, then do not use the word "Indian."

(Also, "Injun Joe"? How useless a name is that? How will that identify the guy in any other way from every other "Injun" named Joe? Or does he just spend all his time in the company of white people? Does he have no relatives?)

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ecchaniz0r
2011-07-12 02:54 am UTC (link)

Oh man. Yeah. It - it's not as bad as it was but it's still bad. But I'm glad there're programs like that in place. I worry a whole hell of a lot about programs like that GOING AWAY because people are dense about such things, and in the end when stuff like that happens we all lose.

'Indian' works that way in my neck of the woods too (ohai I'mma Canuck in Ontario *waves*). I know a bunch of people who use it as a 'oh yeah, by the way, your so-called pejorative? YOINKED! OUR WORD NOW :D' type deal, and a bunch who can't stand it and avoid it like whoa.

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(no subject) - ealusaid, 2011-07-12 03:07 am UTC

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issendai, 2011-07-12 04:43 am UTC

(no subject) - ealusaid, 2011-07-12 04:48 am UTC

evilsqueakers
2011-07-13 08:38 pm UTC (link)

In Kelley Armstrong's latest YA trilogy she mentioned the residential schools since her MC is Native American (the character was originally from the States) and living on Vancouver Island for the past decade. No description but I gathered from the tone of the sentence that they were disgusting.

Once I get a minute again, I'm going to look them up. Because I have a feeling it's going to be relevant to the series and as I like Maya, I should know these things. Also because sometimes tells me as a non-Canadian this should be read about if it comes up again since Armstrong uses Canada (various parts) occasionally.

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	sequinedlizard 2011-07-12 06:33 am UTC (link)
	I don't like him using that name, but that character is also named Listens to Wind, and he only really allows a few people to use the "Injun Joe" one. Listens to Wind does call the main character who uses that name a hick, so it seems to be part of their dynamic. Whether a white man should be WRITING that dynamic is a whole 'nother issue. (Reply to this)(Parent)

sandglass
2011-07-12 04:07 am UTC (link)

I think this is a perfect example of why the tone argument is necessary. He's using how they said it to completely dismiss what they said, and everyone who is agreeing with them less viciously.

In cases like this, it's not about the privileged person's hurt feelings, and bringing them up over and over is even more privilege. It dismisses the hurt feelings of the oppressed group, as well as shuts down the argument, and puts the oppressed group in the position of being expected to apologize for being upset.

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	seiberwing 2011-07-12 06:52 am UTC (link)
	If nothing else, the Chicago fail is pretty extreme. He mixed up 'parks' from two different ends of a very large city. (Reply to this)(Parent)

chikane
2011-07-13 08:13 am UTC (link)

I'm also kind of bothered by the current meme that

I'm more bothered by the current meme that, well, the meme you talk about actually exists.

What one usually sees - just like it is being the case here - is something entirely different, after all. The supposed meme you are talking about is often discussed, but oddly, the behavior doesn't actually happen all that much. It's similar to the supposed man-hating women that want to oppress all men. Oddly, you don't actually see them in reality all that much, either.

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	phosfate 2011-07-14 03:37 pm UTC (link)
	Near as I can tell, the way it works is that I am oppressing men when they tell me to smile and I tell them to fuck off. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	jat_sapphire 2011-07-14 04:32 pm UTC (link)
	Exactly! Especially if you are in an elevator at 4 am. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	phosfate 2011-07-14 04:35 pm UTC (link)
	YOU TAKE THAT BACK! ATHEISTS CANNOT BE SEXIST! (Reply to this)(Parent)

	chikane 2011-07-15 02:50 pm UTC (link)
	It's sad, but I heard that too. It's awfully common. (Reply to this)(Parent)

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