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the_con_cept
2011-07-30 12:19 am UTC (link)

Victim blaming and rape apology really get my hackles up. I am trying to read Sparkymonster charitably and assume "I am doing my best to carefully say “Jack is a rape survivor who I believe and support” and not say “Kynn is a rapist," is really SUPPOSED to mean, "I want to focus on Jack as a rape survivor rather than on Kynn being a rapist," but fuck, there are a lot of contortions to do that, particularly when Sparkymonster seems to think there's no cognitive dissonance in her wording.

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kylenne
2011-07-30 12:59 am UTC (link)

I keep reading what Sparkymonster wrote and I feel like if Kynn had been a prominent male feminist/SJ person there wouldn't be all this "nuance" and weasel wording involved. There'd be no compunction about pointing out that yes, this person is a rapist and their SJ persona/beliefs are an absolute fraud, imo. Maybe that's overly cynical of me, but if it walks like a duck...

Shit like this is why I always say I'm a feminist with an assload of disclaimers, and why I give major side eyes to SJ peeps, especially on the internet. People tend to be incredibly unwilling to apply the own principles they talk about to their friends and activist circles, I've found. Granted that's nothing new by any means, but it's especially prevalent on the internet. People never want to call out their e-friends, especially if said e-friend is a BNF in SJ circles.

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	sepiamagpie 2011-07-30 02:32 am UTC (link)
	She is an exceptional example of a bad apple spoiling the barrel. (Reply to this)(Parent)

franzen
2011-07-30 02:52 am UTC (link)

She wants to say Kynn is a rapist; she just doesn't want to be forced to contend with all the connotations of the word -- someone who preys on boundaries, someone who has enjoyed him/herself while another was clearly distressed, someone who is likely a repeat offender, etc. "Something bad happened and I believe Jack, but... this person is my friend! They're a good rapist! They can change!"

Right. Because every rape accusation is leveled at a first time offender and recidivism isn't a given or anything.

It's very weaselly and for my money, she can fuck the hell off. When I finally told someone who knew my abuser what had happened and who did it, the most telling gesture of his (my friend's) support was when he said he now needed to "renegotiate" his relationship to my abuser and pull away. Because why would you want to know someone who has done that and how can you straightfacedly say, "I'm your friend and I'm totally behind you, I absolutely believe this happened, but that has nothing to do with my friendship with the rapist." The victims end up ostracized and abusers carry a whiff of accusation about them but generally their social world doesn't change.

It infuriates me and I seriously can't believe that post is getting ... complimented? Now, if she had said "I don't want to get into 'Is Kynn a Rapist: Let Us Have a Long and Technical Discussion of Such, With Bonus Citations to Relevant Statutes'" that would be one thing, but that's not what she said.

More hypothetically, can Jean Doe have raped someone and still be involved with social justice movements? Yes they can as long as they take responsibility for what they did, and have done work to make sure they won't do it again.

And I can't even get into this because my head spins.

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	re_weird 2011-07-30 03:08 am UTC (link)
	Yeah, I don't get how people are saying every victim should be believed is linking to a post that tries to have it both ways. Did they not read the comments? (Reply to this)(Parent)

menthodelic
2011-07-30 03:20 am UTC (link)

More hypothetically, can Jean Doe have raped someone and still be involved with social justice movements? Yes they can as long as they take responsibility for what they did, and have done work to make sure they won't do it again.

This... I didn't even know what to do with this. I tried to type up something coherent a half dozen times, and then I just gave it up. No. No, a rapist cannot advocate for victims because a rapist has created a victim. They are part of the problem. And part of their rehabilitation should be coming to realise and accept that they've lost credibility forever in terms of social justice advocacy.

What's more, Kynn certainly wasn't in any hurry to take responsibility for anything. It was Jack who drew attention to the attack, not Kynn herself. She's also posted saying she isn't confessing to anything. So the point, weak as it was to begin with, is moot anyway.

(I'm ignoring the "more hypothetically" past of that statement, because there's no way this is a hypothetical situation.)

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	ingrid 2011-07-30 03:42 am UTC (link)
	Kynn certainly wasn't in any hurry to take responsibility for anything. Not unless it bought her a nice juicy piece of silence. More hypothetically, can Jean Doe have raped someone and still be involved with social justice movements? Yes they can as long as they take responsibility for what they did, and have done work to make sure they won't do it again. WTAF ... no. (Reply to this)(Parent)

dere
2011-07-30 04:16 am UTC (link)

Yeah, I don't know what to do with that. There are so many variables about it—I have seen abusers and criminals successfully work as part of an SJ community, working from the position of a self-admitted perpetrator in a sphere where people are comfortable with their past and rehabilitation. They can be loved and valuable members of a community.

But THIS perpetrator in THIS case? The community obviously isn't ready to deal with this in a productive manner and the perpetrator is obviously not willing to take any kind of responsibility so why even even fucking bring it up right now except as a pre-emptive excuse for not kicking Kynn to the curb? It's so juvenile and hand-wavey and irresponsible and offensive, like somehow you're not a good SJ activist if the idea of a rapist identifying as a victim ally and feminist at the time of their offence also blithely expecting to return to the foot-shuffling, prevaricating SJ community doesn't make you uncomfortable.

Manipulative echo-chamber is manipulative even in its sleep.

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ickle_snowflake
2011-07-30 05:55 pm UTC (link)

IA. I've seen it happen, and work, BUT the rapist took responsibility, was penitent, and put their victim's feelings and wellbeing first long before the idea of them returning to the community was ever floated.

That is not what's happening here, not by a long way. People are honestly talking about the option while Kynn is still saying she "looks forward" to court and tries to bargain for posts being taken down and it just doesn't work like that.

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	tehrin 2011-07-30 09:25 pm UTC (link)
	I think it's the "Yes they can as long..." which makes it read like "It's okay as long as they make up for it later." (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

sandglass
2011-07-30 10:26 pm UTC (link)

It's applying the same standards of regular privilege to rape. Like I'm white in a bigoted culture, so I've done/am going to do bigoted things, without realizing, and I have to own what I did/will do, and am constantly going to try to fix things. But there's a huge difference between the normal shit you do because society sucks, and a sociopathic disregard for others. (And from the sound of it, a sadistic glee in hurting them.) You can't fix the two things with the same response.

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menthodelic
2011-07-31 01:23 am UTC (link)

You know, on further reflection I could see how an offender could, after very intensive self-reflection and rehabilition, become an advocate for social justice. I've met a former BNP member who is now very active in anti-racist causes, and his personal journey was genuine.

But Kynn, who had already been involved in social justice causes and STILL chose to rape? No. And certainly not in the same role as before. The idea that she'll get help and then they'll all go on being friends and her voice will have the same weight as before is absurd.

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jackandahat
2011-07-31 01:46 am UTC (link)

Yeah - she's gone "backwards".

There's a huge difference between "I was brought up in a racist environment and did stupid shit because I didn't know any better at the time.", and not only claiming to know better but going on the attack hunting down other people you claim aren't doing the right thing, and then chosing to do something evil. She knew damn well it was wrong, and chose to do it anyway.

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eleutheria
2011-07-30 05:30 am UTC (link)

This. All of this.

It reminds me of the whole Roman Polanski petition fiasco (I can never remember that man's name for some reason, it's a good thing that "rapist director" in Google always gives me the right result) and the thing that will never not replay itself in my mind, "it's not rape-rape". Or the Julian Assange fiasco. Where people are perfectly willing to be upstanding about rape and rape culture and believing rape victims, until the perpetrator is one of their friends. Their upstandingness matters most when it's hard, dammit!

That post makes me sad and incredibly frustrated-- of all the things to fail on, this of all things. He said no. She didn't listen. That's what matters. (And jesus fuck, there's a goddamned witness on this and there's still this horrible foot-shuffling?)

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the_con_cept
2011-07-30 06:54 pm UTC (link)

Yeah, the weasel wording was pretty gross. I'm also taken aback by the number of other people linking to Sparkymonster's post uncritically. I'm hoping the whole 'but I'm not going to call Kynn a ~rapist' wasn't in there when they first linked, because otherwise all the links and lauding are really troubling to me.

As a survivor, Sparkymonster's comments are the kind of support I WOULD NOT WANT OR NEED. The comments were offensive and hurtful to rape survivors who have to (or have had to) struggle with being heard while their abuser is always given the benefit of the doubt. Seriously, rape culture much? I'd really like Sparkymonster to rethink those comments.

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red_eft
2011-07-31 12:56 am UTC (link)

I'm hoping the whole 'but I'm not going to call Kynn a ~rapist' wasn't in there when they first linked, because otherwise all the links and lauding are really troubling to me.

They weren't when I first saw it.

I'm holding out hope that she will rethink- from what I've read of her previously, I... think she will? But then I was really surprised about those etas, and increasingly distressed as she posted more of them. I think she (quite naturally) is having trouble accepting that her friend, or former friend, may well be, yes, a rapist. That doesn't change the fact that what she posted was... god, I don't even know. Upsetting and offensive and just... I don't know. Maybe I'm doing the same thing, making excuses- I wouldn't call her a friend, because I don't know her beyond the occasional LJ comment, but I've always really respected her. I really hope she walks back from those statements.

In some feminist communities online, I've read people advocate for the use of "I'm sorry s/he raped you" as opposed to "I'm sorry you were raped" - er, usually not said like that but in essence making the sentence active, not passive. This thing didn't just 'happen', someone *did* it. That wording always felt awkward and artificial to me, but I'm starting think maybe it's a useful frame after all.

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	juliansinger 2011-07-30 01:12 pm UTC (link)
	I'm a little conflicted, because I know that that's what's meant, but it really doesn't come across well. And I've seen major divisions in communities come from focusing too much on the rapist to the exclusion of supporting the victim. But there's probably a better way of fixing that problem than this. (Reply to this)(Parent)

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