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jackandahat
2011-07-30 11:53 am UTC (link)

Also, is it just me or are more of the comments in Elf's roundup about the "There aren't enough female characters in games!" than about "Wait, one of our own seems to be a skeevy rapist"?

The lack of female characters is an issue, yes. And yes, it's sad that there won't be a game (Though... I don't get the thing about "Well, if it was men, someone else would step up to take over". I'm sure I'm missing something but... why can't another woman start a game? There's evidence of an audience, evidence of support, what's the fundamental difference between men and women that makes women so allegedly incapable here?)

But. I feel like they're chosing to ignore that someone was raped because it's stepping on their funtimes.

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nam_jai
2011-07-30 03:29 pm UTC (link)

And among the people who actually are talking about the issue at hand, you get a comment like this. A sampling:

I don't say that Jack or the others who presume to speak for him aren't speaking the truth as they see it or not. I really don't know. But the timing is very convenient for people who want to bring Kynn down by whatever means they can. Coincidence? I stopped believing in coincidence in net.drama a long time ago. Even if the accusations are genuine, the motives and timing are suspect.

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	ladyofviolets 2011-07-30 03:39 pm UTC (link)
	Damn, you beat it to me. Was about to post that comment here because WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH THAT IDIOT?! (Reply to this)(Parent)

	dere 2011-07-30 04:09 pm UTC (link)
	That comment made me physically ill. I can't believe anyone would let that post stand in their journal. If someone made that post in my journal, I'd take it down and ban them. Fuck neutrality. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	jackandahat 2011-07-30 04:15 pm UTC (link)
	Yes - clearly, people who've been raped should make sure it's convenient for their rapists. I have to admit, a lot of what I'm getting from this is that it's more important for them to get to play their game than it is for a rapist to be punished or a rape survivor to get justice. (Reply to this)(Parent)

chikane
2011-07-30 04:38 pm UTC (link)

Typical rapologism argument, actually: Assange-defenders and defenders of that french guy used the exact same one.

Here's the thing, though. It's an illogical argument because it implies that "people using the fact that a rape happened for cause X" has any sort of effect on "rape happening". It connects the two when really, they are completely disconnected.

Had Kynn not been a filthy rapist, some of the rpg.net people WOULD have gone for other things to use against her, as would people who dislike her due to fandom kerfluffles. Definitely. It's not even something one can doubt.

But how does it matter? Kynn still raped someone, and her own words condemn her. Other people being jackasses doesn't mean Kynn somehow is innocent.

As a defense for Kynn, this argument is FAIL FAIL FAIL.

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	ickle_snowflake 2011-07-30 05:42 pm UTC (link)
	JFC, what a goddamn asshole. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	ealusaid 2011-07-30 08:15 pm UTC (link)
	Oh, WTF. The causality on that was really blatantly obvious from the beginning: seeing Kynn tout herself as some kind of wonderful feminist is what made Jack pissed off enough to talk about it. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	finchbird 2011-07-31 06:10 am UTC (link)
	I was been able to keep myself from outwardly raging reading some of the comments until I saw this one. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	bof 2011-07-31 07:31 pm UTC (link)
	Looks like Ravan is on kynn's DW circle. Nice job championing for a rapist, fuck-head. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	sakanagi 2011-07-31 08:06 pm UTC (link)
	And yet in Elf's post, Ravan says "I don't know Kynn" and "I don't even know her personally". Even though she was already on Kynn's DW circle at the time she said that. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	bof 2011-07-31 08:15 pm UTC (link)
	The sheer fucking nerve. What's wrong with this person? Aside from the whole rapist championing fuck-head thing. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

juliansinger
2011-07-31 08:47 pm UTC (link)

He /seems/ to be reacting very badly to Alexandraerin, in the "you read off to me" sense, /and also/ to be very ignorant of abusive relationships and dynamics.

The first is... annoying but vaguely understandable, and the second just makes me happy for him, in an incredibly irritable kind of way.

He's walked himself back a bit, in Elf's post. He's still irritating the fuck out of me, though.

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	jackandahat 2011-07-31 09:18 pm UTC (link)
	Do we know what Raven IDs as? I'd assumed female and seen everyone else saying "She", but... it's the internet, I assume everyone's a woman until they tell me otherwise. They self-describe as a "bitch" in their profile and they're in Geek Girls Anon, but neither of those is definitive. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	juliansinger 2011-08-01 05:39 am UTC (link)
	Oh. Oops. I think that'd be indicative of female. Sorry Ravan! (For that part.) (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	jackandahat 2011-08-01 11:25 am UTC (link)
	Fair enough - yours was the first one I'd seen using "he", so I wondered if something had been posted ,or if you were just going "best guess" like the rest of us. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	dere 2011-07-30 04:08 pm UTC (link)
	Seriously, yes. I was fucking pissed that THAT is the take-away. 1. The world is full of competent feminist gamers who could have taken in the project. 2. No one asked that the project be scuttled. 3. What happened to RL > Gaming? (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

jackandahat
2011-07-30 04:19 pm UTC (link)

That's what's baffling me! I've been in a lot of games and with the exception of the one I started, they've all been set up and run by women. I don't know how many of them ID as feminist or whatever, but if you want "A woman who knows what she's doing", you can't really sneeze without hitting one.

In terms of the project being scuttled... I don't think it had to be scuttled, I do think it wouldn't have been possible (or right) for it to have kept being run by Kynn. But that doesn't mean it had to have been abandoned - why couldn't it have been handed to someone else? (There may be reasons, perhaps to do with funding, but it seems like the sensible thing to me.)

For RL to trump gaming, people would have to actually care about the issues they claim to stand for, instead of using them to score points.

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dere
2011-07-30 04:36 pm UTC (link)

I've been gaming in every form except LARPing* for thirty years and the misogynist attitudes in the community and the industry have always been painful to me. I feel like feminism in gaming is vital, finding a way to infect the industry with anti-misogyny, at least... because I think that gaming can be a gateway to social consciousness without being preachy or restrictive. I think you can develop mores in a game that allows you to blow people's heads off. Really. And if I can get the money to go back to school for my MFA in Game Design, I'll find out if I'm right or not.

*can't do it—first LARP session I was ever in someone backed me into a corner and made a sexual advance "in character" and I kneed him in the groin out of sheer panic and never went back.. wasn't welcome back either d/t "no physical contact" rule. It freaks me out to this day. Sorry LARPers.

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jackandahat
2011-07-30 04:44 pm UTC (link)

I'm sorry you had a bad experience with LARPing. There are some dickheads, and some people who use "character" as a way to get away with shit - we physically removed a guy who would harass girls and claim it was in-character.

The game tended to involve a lot of flirting and a somewhat sexualised atmosphere, but he felt he was entitled to people's attention, and that's really not how it worked. (He'd say "But so-and-so does it!" Yes, but so-and-so is polite, and the lady in question was sat on his knee at the time. Totally different to pestering someone at the bar.)

Good luck with getting the money and going back to school - I think the world needs more people who are actually thinking about what they're doing and why they're doing something, and putting intent into the design beyond "It's shiny!".

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dere
2011-07-30 05:08 pm UTC (link)

Knowing some younger, male game designers has made me pretty hopeful. There are some out there who are feminist and LGBTQI-conscious, and they're good. I've held off on the idea of going partly out of finances and partly because I expect "who will listen to me?" and "seriously, I cannot take ANOTHER harass-er/hater/stalker over all this shit" and "I would like to be more than boobs"... because that's always been my experience. But I'm old now and have less to lose and my silence is worn out with age.

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	jackandahat 2011-07-30 05:44 pm UTC (link)
	nods I feel (as a queer guy, obviously I know shit about it in female terms) that there is more inclusiveness now than there used to be, even going back ten years. But it is going to take a tonne of work. Good luck to you! (Reply to this)(Parent)

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