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kaen ([info]kaen) wrote in [info]unfunny_fandom,
@ 2011-08-06 02:15:00


Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
Batgirl at the SDCC
I'm surprised nobody's posted about this one yet.

San Diego Comic Con happened a couple of weeks back, and of course people from DC comics were talking about their series and trying to drum up support for the universe-wide reboot that will be happening next month.

As you'd probably guess, given that they're wiping out the decades long histories of many beloved characters, a lot of people are unhappy with them for a lot of reasons, but the events of this post are focused on one specific issue; people have been noticing that a lot of women seem to be vanishing as part of the reboot. Not just in the pages of the comics, but in real life as well. Women have gone from making up 12% of their creator base (not exactly a great number to begin with) to under 2%. Which'd be three, total.

Kyrax2 (who you'll see referred to as 'Batgirl' a lot in articles in reference to the costume she was wearing) was attending SDCC with her daughter and asked questions about these issues at a few of the DC panels. She was met with evasive and dismissive answers from the panelists and increasing hostility from the crowds of fans. DC has podcasts available of the panels, check the New 52 and Justice League panels on the 22nd and New 52 again on the 23rd. (And to that I'll add a quote from a comment on comicbookGRRL; "Newly-infamous ‘Batgirl’ and I were talking about the audio recording last night, and how it doesn’t quite get the whole experience across. You had to see Didio standing on his toes, leaning over a podium from atop a raised stage, looming over a 4′ 10” woman. His body language was all about bullying and belittlement. When he decided things were done and she shouldn’t talk anymore, he rocked back from the podium and looked away.")

Among other things Dan Didio, the man in charge at DC, said that women should submit their work if they want to be represented at DC, failing to mention that DC doesn't accept unsolicited submissions, (whoops! That one was actually Grant Morrison, though Didio agreed with the answer) and claimed that he'd put together the best team possible for the New 52 which (you'll see in the links to come) many people find hard to believe when that team includes people like Rob Liefeld while artists like Amanda Conner (who had already worked for the company) were nowhere to be seen.

And then several of the major comics news sites went on the report Kyrax2 as being a big old bully picking on the poor little major comic book company. Yeah.

DC Women Kicking Ass provides links to many of those reports, and followed it up with an interview with Kyrax2 letting her tell her side of the story.

This article at Fempop, beyond talking about what happened at SDCC, gives more background about what's happening with women in DC comics for anyone who wants more background on where this is coming from, as does this one at comicbookGRRRL (who also wrote an article about it for SciFiNow).

There are two posts up at Websnark one a pretty quick mention of it and then a more in-depth reaction which has been linked around a lot.

And finally DC released a statement acknowledging the complaints although they don't apologize for being so dismissive about them to begin with.

This probably goes without saying, but expect to find plenty of sexism, mansplaining, and general not-getting-itness in the comments sections.


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[info]agrias
2011-08-08 12:29 am UTC (link)
Among other places. But yeah, CBR forums: the place I got called an "ungrateful negro"

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]evilsqueakers
2011-08-08 12:47 am UTC (link)
Yeah, I'm so not surprised.

CBR pretty much killed my new love of comics. A) CREEPY ASS MEN there (I got a severe stalker there); B) if you bother to speak, you better be a woman that knows the history of everything about the character before daring to opine; C) when you run off a transgender because you basically say she needs to toughen up, fuck them.

I used to post pretty heavy, at YABS before Gail left, and I was gone pretty quick. I went back for someone and he ended up being a dipshit stick in the long run, too.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]agrias
2011-08-08 01:00 pm UTC (link)
There's a lot about the culture that is toxic. And the moderating system, I've found, tends to favor the assholes with asshole opinions. Like, you can say some pretty homophobic crap, but they'll warn you for calling another poster a homophobe.

The guy who was spouting racial slurs at me did get banned, but he continued to harass me through email. I'm not surprised they ran you out at all, but I'm so sorry that happened. It's especially frustrating because the industry desperately needs new readers, but the largest forum on the subject is such a hostile environment. To bring it back to the topic of the post— for me one of the most telling things was how hostile other fans were to Batgirl. I saw quite a few write-ups of the whole fiasco point to that hostility as evidence that she was some kind of evil bully. Which, uh, no, but many segments of the fandom are.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]evilsqueakers
2011-08-08 01:56 pm UTC (link)
Oh, the moderating system was pretty much as nonexistent as the larger soap boards to be honest. There was so much blatant favoritism I'm surprised it hasn't fallen over into a vat of Bullshit Goo. I knew some women there that managed to stick around, and they were so taken to task for daring to call out the unending cycle of spunk diarrhea. (As one that posted there briefly with very staple-gun-balls-to-the-wall reactions to that, this was not unsurprising.)

Yay for banning...but how long did it take? I mean, it seemed to take some people about 15 times to be banned when they were outright grotesque at the lobbied insults...per forum. Ten-to-one, I bet I know some of those people that're still being so toxic.

The funny thing? It was Gail Simone that managed to entice comics to me after a total smackdown towards an asshole that was featured on FW. And thusly CBR. But it took less than a year to completely wipe my interest entirely, including some of Gail's behaviors - like the favoritism and lax ability of caring for a targeted YABS member. Or the completely on-board-speaking of the seriously creepy men that used to make many of the women feel uncomfortable, especially the forum stalking. And I went back for less than two months after taking nearly a year off.

But that's not to say I don't have some of the people still on my Facebook friends list. I have at least 5-6, with 4 of those I speak to frequently. And I count most of those as a good bargain for the pain and creepiness I went through to get them. They're smart, kind, empathetic, snarky, and with amazing wit.

That said, the board pretty much effectively shut my interest down quickly. I mean, why would I want to be a part of a culture where men were allowed to stalk me (please note the plural), tell me I ought to be in kitchen (no lie), and say words that caused me to feel unsafe without them being a single trigger previously? Personally, I think SDCC!Batgirl (to not confuse myself with the varied list of characters) had it right. She was bringing up valid points because look at the scope and size of the convention: not counting the media, it exposed quite a few women and young women to an entire changing culture that they could help improve. Inclusion doesn't necessitate exclusion. By allowing a more welcome environment, you allow for a better profit margin if nothing else. More money means more things you can try out, to create a more diverse product.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]agrias
2011-08-08 08:22 pm UTC (link)
It took— maybe a day to get them banned. But this was a literal slavery apologist, so... I thought he was a troll until he kept harassing me over email. This was during the "Captain America Hates the Tea Party" wank, so the forums were more hostile than normal. If possible. (I was disappointed so few people pointed out that in this Captain America could actually be Captain Commie. Alas.)

And yes. Personally (I might be biased) I think that women + superheroes is a pretty natural combination. For all that the genre is dismissed as adolescent male power fantasy, I think the capacity for metaphor is much greater, and I really love superheroines. Getting more women into the genre would only improve it, as sales are dying and the fanbase is kind of stagnant. But it's not just Didio & co that has to change, it's the fanbase, the people on these messageboards, every guy who treats a girl in the comic shop like something they need to stop and wonder at.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]evilsqueakers
2011-08-09 12:04 pm UTC (link)
I had to pause from posting about CBR cause it causes little chest pains when I think I've made a friend and SURPRISE, Unexpected Asshole rears its ugly head in the worst possible timing. Anyway.

A day?! That's insane, in the fact they actually did something about it. Now I'm wondering if we WERE around at the same time. Usually you get a kindly "don't engage" even when you're the target. I don't remember the Tea Party debacle, thank the the goddess. They're utterly progressive...as long as you leave their own values out of it. Bitter? Me? Never! I tried the Community and ran after I left YABS. Yeeah, no.

I think women+superheroes is like the best combo because, hello, we like to be powerful, too! Wish fulfillment isn't just a male pastime. I love the idea of having some of these awesome women that know what they're doing and how to do it. I mean, really, I wouldn't wanna fuck with some of the villainess, either. Please see my icon. The fanbase refuses to change, though. It's much easier to shun the outsiders and deal with the uninterrupted male privilege. The one thing I love is the local comic store is epically awesome. One of the main workers is a woman and she remembers me every time I come in because, well, no filter whatsoever, and she finds me amusing in the "don't poke the unmedicated" way. Like most people.

But for the message board jackasses to change, those in charge have to set the standard. And I don't see that ever happening.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]agrias
2011-08-09 09:44 pm UTC (link)
I post mostly in Marvel forums so there's probably a bit of difference there, it's a big enough board there are lots of little sub-communities. The Tea Party thing happened when Fox News discovered there was a reference to the Tea Party in an issue of Captain America, it might not have been 100% positive, and so a bunch of Fox News people flooded the forums with complaints. Yep! The end result being that I got told I wasn't grateful enough to the white people who freed my slave ancestors. (I'm not black, fyi, so the whole experience was considerably less personally traumatizing.)

Yeah. I think superheroes natural vehicles for feminine empowerment. It's kind of the ultimate liberation fantasy— who doesn't want to zap the patriarchy with laser vision??

My LCS is owned and primarily staffed by a woman! It's very nice and I get a good discount.

I agree though that it is hard to see things changing. Those in charge kind of feed of the existing fanbase, it's very cyclical.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]sparkysrevenge
2011-08-08 12:24 pm UTC (link)
CBR is a wretched hive of scum and villainy. [info]evilsqueakers kept dragging me back, and I just don't have the patience to deal with those people. I haven't had as much disappointment dealing with Comic Vine, but it's been a while since I've frequented there.

I usually keep my comic discussions on comic book costuming forums. Much saner conversations, unbelievably.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]agrias
2011-08-08 12:46 pm UTC (link)
I'm on comic vine too and I haven't run into as much willful evil, but I don't find the comics-related discussions as interesting. (The reason I stick around at CBR is because I sometimes have interesting discussions about comics, there. I really don't blame anyone for leaving, though.)

I don't find it unbelievable at all, given how low the comic forum discussion bar is set.

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