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rosehiptea
2012-03-10 11:09 am UTC (link)

Yeah, that whole mess just depresses me and I'm not even in any of the fandoms for Sherlock Holmes adaptations.

I haven't watched much of Lucy Liu's stuff but it's so clear people are down on her because she's an Asian woman and not Martin Freeman.

(Watson looks like whatever you want him or her to look like, but if you want to watch a show with a white guy as Watson you have a huge variety to choose from. Jeez, people.)

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luxshine
2012-03-10 05:09 pm UTC (link)

some people love the idea of a PoC Watson. Or a lesbian Watson. Or anything but either white!Watson or Watson as a woman because it's the only way she can be a romantic interest for Holmes... just saying.

I don't doubt there are some people angry because she's not Martin Freeman, and some people who are being racist idiots about it, but it's not every single fan who complains who is like that.

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rosehiptea
2012-03-10 05:22 pm UTC (link)

I don't think every single fan complaining is a racist, so I'm sorry if I sounded like that. And I should have said "some people" for that reason, though I've seen quite a bit of "Watson looks like this" with pictures of Martin Freeman, so that's where I was coming from on that.

And I get that TV executives are going to make het couples and not gay couples and that sucks in general. I still can't help thinking that complaint about this specific show is a little misplaced, but that's me.

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luxshine
2012-03-10 06:26 pm UTC (link)

Oh don't worry. Maybe I was a bit oversensitive after the last three times the subject came up on F!S (Where of course, if you complain you're a racist, because it's not possible it's homophobic, and the complain that Liu!Watson is not a doctor and thus the show runners are diminishing the character is seen as sexist when we're complaining about the fact that she's not a doctor, not a she), and well.

Still, Watson looks like whatever the hell the reader/watcher wants, as you say, so I don't understand the Martin Freeman obsession (I like him, but I like Law's Watson a bit better)

I think the problem with this specific show is that people are immensely attached to the possibility that someone will finally have the guts to do a gay Sherlock/Watson openly, and then you've got a woman in the rol, who is not white, so you've got to decide... are you sexist/racist if you complain or homophobic if you don't complain? and no one wins with that attitude and... well, I'm amazed we haven't landed on Fandom Wank yet.

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rosehiptea
2012-03-10 09:48 pm UTC (link)

No problem, I get where F!S is kind of a minefield, having just gotten into a stupid argument with an anon there myself which I'm still trying to get myself to ignore.

And I've seen plenty of legitimate complaints about what they did as far as Watson's back story, so I don't think that's racist at all... if anything the posts I've seen about that are saying that Lucy Liu deserves to play a better character, so.

I don't think American TV was ever even contemplating doing Sherlock and Watson as a gay couple. So I guess that's part of why I don't relate as much to that objection to the casting -- I mean I really don't think anyone even thought "We'll make her a woman or this will be too gay!" My bias I guess?

Yet, yeah, they do want to escape having gay couples in general and that is pretty sad. Just it doesn't bother me particularly that they don't do it in this particular show, but that doesn't mean every single person who wants to see that is a racist.

/rambling, sorry.

P.S. I'd be more likely to watch it if they made Sherlock and Watson women. But what do I know.

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	sepiamagpie 2012-03-10 11:12 pm UTC (link)
	Didn't you have a second comment here? You're not supposed to delete comments. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	rosehiptea 2012-03-11 12:46 am UTC (link)
	It was a duplicate of the same comment. I thought I was allowed to delete it under those circumstances. I apologize if I wasn't. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	sepiamagpie 2012-03-11 12:59 am UTC (link)
	Totally allowed. I just wasn't sure since I didn't see the original (Reply to this)(Parent)

full_metal_ox
2012-03-11 02:29 am UTC (link)

And I've seen plenty of legitimate complaints about what they did as far as Watson's back story, so I don't think that's racist at all... if anything the posts I've seen about that are saying that Lucy Liu deserves to play a better character, so.

Last I checked, wasn't this the twenty-first century--where it's entirely possible for an Asian-American woman to be a physician, combat veteran, and Wounded Warrior? Recent events have even obligingly provided another Afghan War.

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	rosehiptea 2012-03-11 04:21 am UTC (link)
	Excellent point, yeah. I don't get why they dropped the ball on that so badly. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	adevyish 2012-03-12 01:52 am UTC (link)
	This. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	napalmnacey 2012-03-12 05:16 pm UTC (link)
	I'm disappointed. I wanted brilliant doctor PTSD-riddled hardened soldier Lucy Liu Watson, damn it! (Reply to this)(Parent)

	luxshine 2012-03-11 03:39 am UTC (link)
	My problem is that I'm a pessimist. I do believe that someone said "We'll make her a woman or this will be too gay!" and that also colors my view I guess. And yes, Sherlock AND Watson women would be amazingly cool. If I didn't know that they already cast Sherlock, I wouldn't be so mad about all this, (Reply to this)(Parent)

	sepiamagpie 2012-03-10 11:10 pm UTC (link)
	Butting in here, but my take is that people wanting to get rid of the woc because of the remote possibility of the two white guys getting it on is fairly questionable in and of itself. I`m not casting any accusations your way though, to be clear. I'm talking about the stuff I saw on tumblr. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

luxshine
2012-03-11 03:03 am UTC (link)

I'm starting to think Tumbler is a hive of scum and villany. Since apparently, everyone who finds racist comments against Lucy Liu, finds them in Tumbler.

For me is more like TPTB made Watson a woman (But not an army doctor, of course) BECAUSE they didn't want more people reading that there could be a homoerotic subtext. That sort of bothers me a little. Especially since it's very probable that they will end up romantically involved and that sits really bad with me.

TL;DR version: I want a woc Watson. I just want her to be a kickass doctor who doesn't fall in love with Sherlock.

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	spacelogic 2012-03-12 02:18 am UTC (link)
	Speaking as someone who likes Holmes but isn't really a fan, I agree. Making Watson a woman so as to pair her with Holmes manages to simultaneously erase the potential queerness of the original character and reinforce the old saw about how a man and a woman can never be simply friends. Now, if they made Holmes a woman too? I'd watch the shit out of that. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

luxshine
2012-03-12 05:43 am UTC (link)

I'd love a female!Holmes/female!Watson adaptation. I'd love it if they kept the potential queereness, I'd love it if they made them both straight, I'd love it in any possible ways.

I'd also love a nonwhite!Holmes, for a change. And a nonwhite!Watson.

I love adaptations of Holmes, as I love the canon. But this one... I just can't feel happy about it, and it has nothing to do with Miss Liu, who I'm sure will do her best with the role they gave her.

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enrythe8th
2012-03-15 04:24 pm UTC (link)

I don't know, it seems to me that American television is just as okay with teasing gay with guy friends as British television is. In some cases (such as House and Scrubs) they're even more ostentatious about it.

What's so representative about potential queerness, anyway? If anything, the way Sherlock and John's relationship is portrayed in the BBC series strikes me as more homophobic. It's that whole "teasing gay" thing that bothers me, because it's a) meant to be funny, which is insulting the audience's intelligence and b) meant to be fanservice, which makes me embarrassed to be a fan, knowing that this kind of pandering is exactly what the writers/producers/etc think of their viewers.

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melusina
2012-03-21 08:34 am UTC (link)

I agree with what you're saying for the most part, but the way things are now, a lot of the queer relationships on television are still primarily subtextual. Many of the characters who are portrayed as queer are usually walking stereotypes still, and (I feel like) the richest and most heartfelt relationships are often those that aren't outright portrayed as such. At least they're often more representative of my experience than other ones.

I do hate that Moffat (and Cumberbatch from what I've seen) tease gay in the show and then say "oh, nope, no queers here!" in interviews.

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enrythe8th
2012-03-15 04:12 pm UTC (link)

A little misplaced? Just speaking for BBC Sherlock, I wouldn't call it queer representation at all. It's just sort of "Hur hur lookit everyone thinks two guys who live together and have a bromance means they're gay let's point it out every five minutes," and then the series creators then are just like "OH NO THEY'RE TOTALLY NOT GAY." Which seems to happen a lot these days, because oh golly goodness do we ever love our bromances *retch*. I think people forget that subtext is not representation. It's kind of insulting, I think.

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