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sorchar
2010-10-21 04:16 am UTC (link)

The thing I've only seen mentioned once or twice is that it's possible to write dialogue in which a character says something/racist/homophobic etc, without actually being that -ist oneself. Now, when privilege and isms are apparent in the way a piece is constructed (ie the recent SPN racefail fic) that's one thing. But having a character make such a remark does not equal the author believing that said character is right. (This doesn't even address the idea that two characters might have a relationship in which such joking is customary, much as some people in real life do, but I'm already TL;DR here.)

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	sorchar 2010-10-21 04:17 am UTC (link)
	something/racist/homophobic And wow, one too many slashes in my adjectives there. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	digigirl132 2010-10-21 05:56 am UTC (link)
	It's a nice thought, but it requires a certain level of maturity and understanding on all sides involved in order for it to work. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	sorchar 2010-10-21 06:06 am UTC (link)
	Point taken. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	sailorcoruscant 2010-10-21 06:14 am UTC (link)
	Maturity, understanding and skill on the part of the writer to make it clear that it isn't their opinion that the characters are voicing. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	digigirl132 2010-10-21 01:20 pm UTC (link)
	That too. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	mcity 2010-11-03 03:33 am UTC (link)
	And sometimes the writers do their level best, but it's still honestly misconstrued. I mean, just look at all the examples on TVTropes' Misaimed Fandom page (Reply to this)(Parent)

	blue_penguin 2010-10-21 10:02 am UTC (link)
	Yeah, that was my thought as well -- I only read the one exchange out of context, but my first reaction wouldn't be "wow, the author's a racist asshole" so much as "wow, that character's a racist asshole". But the context is pretty important in determining which way that goes. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	kosaginolegion 2010-10-21 01:57 pm UTC (link)
	This doesn't even address the idea that two characters might have a relationship in which such joking is customary, much as some people in real life do, but I'm already TL;DR here. I admit when I read that segment that that's what I took from it, not knowing anything about the characters. So, yeah. This. (Reply to this)(Parent)

marmaladecat
2010-10-21 06:34 pm UTC (link)

I was also confused by this. Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems bizarre to assume that the author of a piece holds the same views as the characters about which they write. Obviously, I don't know a lot about the original author, so have no idea if they have a history of spouting racist views, but from that very brief extract that conclusion would have been the furthest from my mind.

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	phosfate 2010-10-21 08:27 pm UTC (link)
	You know it's true! Just like when Christie and Conan Doyle murdered all those guys, JK Rowling started that magic school, and Harper Lee spent every weekend out back busting up chiffarobes. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

kylenne
2010-10-21 09:13 pm UTC (link)

Except, well, racist views are a lot more common than murder and magic schools (Ed Hubbard notwithstanding). I don't at all find it bizarre to assume the author of a piece with some problematic kyriarchal stuff going on with the characters shares those views, given we all live in a society where those views are continually held up as legit and any dissension or questioning of those views (especially by marginalized people) is met with wails of "zomg PC Police!!11"

I mean, this is the same argument I've seen being made about Neil LaBute's stuff all the time, that his plays were just about misogynists and no, he really wasn't one! And then he remade the Wicker Man and had two hours of Nic Cage punching women in the face and the men's tongues were all cut out and all those people sort of looked at each other awkwardly and went, "uh, dude might have issues with women after all."

Frankly? As someone else said upthread, it takes a level of maturity and skill as a writer to be able to portray that kind of thing while making the distinction. I don't know from Inception since I've never seen the movie. I haven't read anything else by this person, but I'm not generous, and white fans have worked my nerves to the point where no one gets a presumption of innocence. Why should they, especially given all the copious amounts of *fail in fandom? To be honest, as a queer black woman no one coming from a position of privilege gets the benefit of the doubt from me in fandom. Ever. Or IRL, for that matter. Kicking 30 in the ass and seeing people in action, I know better than that. Maybe that makes me a meen ebol PoC but whatevs.

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	phosfate 2010-10-21 09:21 pm UTC (link)
	Dude, whatever works for you. I wouldn't watch Wicker Man or Inception on a bet, since they look like derivative sexist bullshit. Okay, I might watch Wicker Man if I had some booze in the house. It has bees. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	kylenne 2010-10-22 04:22 pm UTC (link)
	The Rifftrax of the Wicker Man remake is the only way to watch it. It's hysterically funny. NOT THE BEEEEEEEEEEES~ (Reply to this)(Parent)

	lady_ganesh 2010-10-22 06:03 pm UTC (link)
	Wicker Man is hilarious.Inception is mostly sexist by omission, YMMV on that one. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	phosfate 2010-10-22 06:08 pm UTC (link)
	Nobody wants to read my list of reasons for not wanting to see Inception. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	napalmnacey 2010-11-03 12:05 pm UTC (link)
	I do, but you can show it to me another time if you like. My brother and his friend are mad for it and reckon it's brilliant. Like any Contrary-Fairy, when I hear people go on and on about something, I'm immediately skeptical and doubtful. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	justira 2010-11-12 05:02 pm UTC (link)
	I'm late to this party (busy week), but I am also actually interested? Full disclosure: I've seen it and enjoyed it, but I also enjoy seeing dissenting opinions on things I like. (Reply to this)(Parent)

ekaterinv
2010-10-21 09:36 pm UTC (link)

it seems bizarre to assume that the author of a piece holds the same views as the characters about which they write

THIS. Are we so used to crap fiction by the likes of Meyers and Brown and LKH and Rice and LaHaye and Jenkins and etc. ad infinitum that we don't realize their way of writing fiction isn't actually... normal? I've never written a character with whom I'd agree about everything -- what on earth would be the point?

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	bigbigtruck 2010-10-22 04:35 pm UTC (link)
	I like Dorothy Sayers' take on the matter... (first blockquoted passage) (Reply to this)(Parent)

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