(Read comments) - (Post a new comment)

	kumquat_of_doom 2010-12-07 12:39 pm UTC (link)
	:OOO Yes please! A prettied-up post would be lovely, but really anything's fine with me. Your apology in that post was very classy, BTW. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

The last comments before lockdown...

sailorlum
2010-12-07 03:57 pm UTC (link)

Aw, thanks. *^>^*

Here’s the prettied-up post, in two parts…

Reply to farmercuerden by Anonymous #1:
I didn't think

well, OBVIOUSLY NOT, you colossal fucking shitwit.

12/4/2010 11:29 PM EST

OP by Anonymous #2:
Yes, some cisfolks might use them in a twee or pretentious fashion, and that's annoying, but that's not the fault of the words--that's the fault of the people using them.

That's the problem here.

The original post obviously isn't worded very well, given the... vehement response. But the point was that terri is co-opting terminology that I personally only associate with gender identity and gender politics, and it is for the express purpose of appearing more knowledgeable and educated than The Common Man. And I agree that it's pretentious, pompous, and no more than an excuse to have her look down her nose and prove how educated she must be. This is hardly the case for just about any other time I've seen the word used, but in this context it just seems like it's not the appropriate word to be using.

Reply to Anonymouse #2 by kylenne:
Again, that's a problem with the person, not with the actual words. I don't understand what's so difficult to grok about that. This is like someone bitching about how much they hate eggs, and how eggs should DIAF, because there are obnoxious kids who toss them at houses and cars on Halloween. Well, most people use eggs for eating and cooking and baking. The problem is not with the eggs, it's with the kids who should have gotten a few asswhuppings. terri's a prejudiced asshole who is known to co-opt marginalized people's shit to score cheap points and make herself look educated. She does this all the time, on race and other issues. So why not criticize that, which would be warranted, instead of criticizing the words themselves, which are legit words?

The original post wasn't simply "not worded very well", it was flat out stupid before even getting to the insensitivity of it, and the ETA was just a cissplaining clusterfuck that only served to further show how ignorant the OP was. If you're going to try and call someone out for being a pretentious pseudo-intellectual, it helps if you don't come. At this point I'm not really seeing any difference between the OP and terri.

12/4/2010 11:36 PM EST

kylenne:
*if you don't come across as one yourself. Silly enter key.

12/4/2010 11:37 PM EST

Reply to Anonymouse #2 by ecchaniz0r:
Okay. Seriously, please just stop. I'm embarrassed on your behalf.

No one gives a damn anyhow any more what the OP might have meant; s/he worded things poorly, s/he was fucking cissexist as all hell, and s/he must now suck it up and deal with the consequences of having sot his/her mouth off like a huge jackass. S/he may apologize right and demonstrate adulthood, or keep sobbing and whining that we're SO MEAN, and thus look like an idiot child. Your playing meatshield for him/her isn't going to fix anything, and isn't going to prevent the latter outcome.

An asshole who is arguably using hir/zie/etc. the wrong way does not mean the words themselves are no good to use or pretentious or stupid. Okay? The OP has a history of doing this sort of thing, and has proven him-or-herself to not be bright in the least when it comes to issues of marginalization. 'But they didn't MEAN' is a useless argument. It's like this: if you spill hot tea on your best friend's crotch by accident, you certainly didn't MEAN to hurt them, but you did, and it falls to you to get them a towel instead of whining about them having sworn at you!

Terri acts like a jackass, no one is arguing with that. But the words she uses are not themselves tainted by her being a jackass. if the OP had critiqued the use of those words, everything would have been just jim-dandy. But s/he didn't do that. S/he went all privilege-stupid again. Sigh, eyeroll, migraine.

It's decent of you to try to play goalie here, but it's ill-informed, and in the end it's gonna be about as useful as taking on Dio Brando, Kil'jaeden and Smaug with a fucking ornamental toothpick.

Critique the language use, don't fucking blast the words as stupid because Terri's being an idiot. Why is that hard to understand?

12/4/2010 11:54 PM EST

(cont.)

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: The last comments before lockdown...

sailorlum
2010-12-07 03:59 pm UTC (link)

OP by sailorlum:
Just wanted to say a quick "thank you", for the links in your post, here. They were very helpful and led me to do further research on the various gender neutral pronouns and their history. Yay, for knowlege!

Reply to sailorlum by Anonymous #2? or #3:
You're just falling ass over backwards in apologizing, aren't you? Yay, for submissive back-pedaling and ingratiating compliance to the perceived or vocal majority!

12/4/2010 11:38 PM EST

OP by sailorlum:
Amendment: Apologies period.

Reply to sailorlum by kylenne:
Subject: Re: Foot meet mouth...
Hey, everybody gets caught with their ass flapping in the wind at some point. It happens, and learning's good.

12/4/2010 11:40 PM EST

Thanks for the kind words, btw. *^>^*

OP by microclimate:
Okay, point, but only if the person in question asks for it to be used. If you choose to use it for someone because of your own confusion, then that's you purposely assigning an intermediate gender. They get to choose what gender they want to be assigned as, including ambiguous, and others should not choose for them.

Man you are just not getting it.

This is not some sparkly fancy word that pretentious folk came up with to annoy you. Some people use it because they do not believe in a gender binary, do not want to misgender a person whose gender they do not know, or do not believe, for whatever reason, that the singular "they" is grammatically correct.

The key point here is that this word means something important to some people. You don't have the authority to decide what words people use in relation to gender, ESPECIALLY if you're a cisgendered male telling this to cis women, transpeople and the genderqueer. And you sure as fuck don't have the authority to decide when the word can be used appropriately, especially if you're a cismale determining these uses solely based on your personal preferences.

Reply to microclimate by farmercuerden:
Have you looked into the history of the words in question? I'm sorry, but you can't just make up a pseudohistory to attack people with. There may be exceptions, but the well-known ones were, from what research I did, specifically invented for cases where you were referring to a generic person. That they have been found useful for the cisgender case does not mean that they were invented for that purpose.

12/5/2010 12:14 AM EST

And then lock down and deletion occurred.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: The last comments before lockdown...

farmercuerden
2010-12-07 05:01 pm UTC (link)

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	Re: The last comments before lockdown... spacelogic 2010-12-07 06:53 pm UTC (link)
	....you need to look up "cisgendered" ASAP. Hint: it's not me, it's you. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	Re: The last comments before lockdown... sisterelwood 2010-12-07 07:28 pm UTC (link)
	Well, never mind. The hms stfu was the only place on LJ or JF I posted, so I doubt you'll ever see me again. Bye! (Reply to this)(Parent)

	Re: The last comments before lockdown... notjo 2010-12-07 07:46 pm UTC (link)
	Hon, please learn what the words you use actually mean before using them anymore. Google "cisgender" as soon as possible, it will help. Also, stop ignoring history. Gender-neutral third-person singular pronouns in English pre-date the internet by about 150 years, as a replacement for the not-actually-gender-neutral use of "him". (Reply to this)(Parent)

Re: The last comments before lockdown...

sailorlum
2010-12-07 08:33 pm UTC (link)

Just before deletion and lockdown, there were some anonymous comments, and ones by esclaramonde in which, among other things, I was accused of wanting to kill cisgendered peopl. They don't seem to be quoted here, probably because, when I saw them, I wasn't sure what to do, and foolishly decided to delete them while deciding.

The moment someone hits "enter" on a comment to a thread or topic I'm tracking, it goes right to my e-mail, even if it's deleted one second later and goes poof from the JF inbox. (For instance, I’ve got 5 messages you posted to this topic here on unfunny_fandom, in my e-mail inbox, that were quickly deleted and no longer show up in the JF inbox). The comment by you in your topic on the hms_stfu, made on 12/5/2010 12:14 AM EST, is the last comment that came in for that topic. Any other messages you received must have been PM’s. As indicated by this thread here: http://www.journalfen.net/community/the_hms_stfu/522415.html?thread=17970863#t17970863 , esclaramonde did speak with you, but it had to have been a private PM (or in an unrelated post I wasn't tracking, which seems unlikely) or I’d have gotten it in my e-mail box.

In the comments preserved in the cap here: http://pics.livejournal.com/has_photoshop/pic/00001b2g , someone (wankismyfandom) does mention the unfortunate implications of your post, but these were not accusations of you wanting to kill anyone. I’d bet good money that this is what esclaramonde was trying to point out to you, as well.

Well, never mind. The hms stfu was the only place on LJ or JF I posted, so I doubt you'll ever see me again.

Farewell, then.

PS: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	Re: The last comments before lockdown... sisterelwood 2010-12-07 08:44 pm UTC (link)
	Mmmm, that is a lovely serving of 'boo-YAH' there. Well played. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	Re: The last comments before lockdown... sailorlum 2010-12-07 08:51 pm UTC (link)
	Thank you. :) (Reply to this)(Parent)

	Re: The last comments before lockdown... ecchaniz0r 2010-12-08 07:23 am UTC (link)
	one-geek standing ovation (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	Re: The last comments before lockdown... sailorlum 2010-12-08 07:26 am UTC (link)
	Thank you very much. /Elvis-style :} (Reply to this)(Parent)

	Re: The last comments before lockdown... kumquat_of_doom 2010-12-08 09:08 pm UTC (link)
	Oh, well played, well played. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	Re: The last comments before lockdown... sailorlum 2010-12-09 06:28 am UTC (link)
	Thank you. :) (Reply to this)(Parent)

	Re: The last comments before lockdown... microclimate 2010-12-07 10:41 pm UTC (link)
	lol (Reply to this)(Parent)

	Re: The last comments before lockdown... ekaterinv 2010-12-08 12:07 am UTC (link)
	Obviously, cisgendered people deserve an apology What? No we don't, unless you happen to hit us in a broader apology for making a mess in the comm. Come on, I know you're smarter than this. :/ (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	Re: The last comments before lockdown... farmercuerden 2010-12-08 03:35 am UTC (link)
	...Dammit. I was thinking chemistry. So transgendered is opposite, and I presumed cis is close together, e.g androgynous. Okay. Well, then, that makes me understand what this wank is about: If this is about transgedered people who desire to express their ambiguous genders, and these words are the ones they prefer... ...Oh... hell... (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	Re: The last comments before lockdown... farmercuerden 2010-12-08 03:36 am UTC (link)
	Riiight. that was pretty insensitive handling by me, wasn't it? Shit. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: The last comments before lockdown...

farmercuerden
2010-12-08 03:42 am UTC (link)

...I thought it was situations like large clitorises, which I knew were often cut down to make people fit gender roles, but physical situation is not equal to gender, and I did not want to come out and say that people who do *not* consider their gender ambiguous - whatever gender they feel they are - should be treated as ambiguous because the speaker feels their ambiguity. Gender is their choice. If the situation is just transgender, then that sort of qualification was completely not on.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: The last comments before lockdown...

farmercuerden
2010-12-08 03:46 am UTC (link)

It's like how a person who feels they're a male in a woman's body shouldn't be treated as an ambiguous gender - they're male. Gender is, in the end, a personal and social construct. I'd be offended if someone insisted on calling my friend Timm (genetically female) either "she" OR "xe", because he's male, and I think that came out in my very failed attempt at an apology.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	Re: The last comments before lockdown... sunhawk 2010-12-08 06:21 am UTC (link)
	The very best thing you could do right now is STOP TALKING unless you are saying "I'm sorry for being a privileged asshole, I will work on cutting that out." etc. Just stop talking. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	sisterelwood 2010-12-08 07:50 am UTC (link)
	Seriously? Seriously? You didn't Google that shit as it became glaringly obvious you might be wrong about the meaning of the word? SERIOUSLY? You need to just shut up now. (Reply to this)(Parent)

For you, and for anyone who might be curious

sequinedlizard
2010-12-08 08:21 pm UTC (link)

Whoa... you have stepped in it here. Let's break it down:

"cisgender" -having a match between gender identity and the behavior or role considered appropriate for one's sex (so, no disconnect between the gender a person identifies as and the gender they'd be assigned by society based on their sex)

"transgender" - a person's gender identity does NOT match the behavior or roles considered appropriate for their sex (so there IS a disconnect between the gender a person identifies as and the gender they'd be assigned by society based on their sex

Some people who are transgendered undergo surgery to change their sex to align better with their gender identity. This would be transsexual. One may be transgendered without undergoing surgery to change one's sex.

Then there are people who are genderqueer, which is kind of a catch-all term for people who do not fall into a specific gender identity, regardless of their sex. I am an example - I am a cissexual female assigned at birth that does not gender identify as a woman. I generally use the term "agender," meaning I do not gender identify, as myself. My gender is not "ambiguous," it simply is not something I identify with.

As you can see from the above - we can use "cis" and "trans" to refer to EITHER sex or gender. I am cissexual, but I am not cisgendered. I am also not ambiguously gendered. There are transsexual individuals who identify as transsexual but cisgendered (i.e., they underwent surgery to change their sex, therefore there is no disconnect between what society perceives as appropriate for their sex and their gender identity anymore).

So, for pronouns. Yes, your friend Timm should have masculine pronouns used to identify him (don't bother with the "genetically female" disclaimer, it's both offensive and pointless) - he identifies as a man, he's a he. If he prefers to be called he, and that fact is known, I would consider it offensive to use gender neutral OR feminine pronouns to refer to him. If people DON'T KNOW his gender identity (which is common in online discussions), it is considerate.

Gender neutral pronouns work for people who DO NOT gender identify, AND for writing about people who's gender identity is NOT KNOWN. That's it - there's no pretentiousness involved.

So, you done fucked up. And you compounded the fuckup by not doing a search on terms like "cisgendered" and arguing from wrong assumptions, and generally flapping your ass in the breeze. Hopefully my explanation helped. Next time, if you don't know, apologize, consider yourself lucky you don't have to deal with these issues every day of your life, do some reading, and find a place to ask questions.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: For you, and for anyone who might be curious -

kumquat_of_doom, 2010-12-08 09:11 pm UTC

Re: For you, and for anyone who might be curious -

sandglass, 2010-12-09 02:29 am UTC

Re: For you, and for anyone who might be curious -

sequinedlizard, 2010-12-09 02:43 am UTC

	Re: The last comments before lockdown... kumquat_of_doom 2010-12-08 09:07 pm UTC (link)
	Dear twonk, A suggestion, if I may. STOP FUCKING TALKING. I am going to be spending all night singing 'Just keep digging' (to the tune of Dory's 'just keep swimming' song in Finding Nemo) as it is. No love, A thoroughly irritated kumquat_of_doom (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: The last comments before lockdown... -

cyndra_falin, 2010-12-09 10:14 pm UTC

Re: The last comments before lockdown... -

kumquat_of_doom, 2010-12-09 10:20 pm UTC

	Re: The last comments before lockdown... ecchaniz0r 2010-12-08 07:21 am UTC (link)
	You stupid, stupid nutsack. (Reply to this)(Parent)

(Read comments) -