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mariem_1 (![[info]](http://www.journalfen.net/img/userinfo.gif){kind=small} mariem_1) wrote in ![[info]](http://www.journalfen.net/img/community.gif){kind=small} unfunny_fandom,@ 2011-01-13 20:16:00 |
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The sequel to the latest Snapewank
Remember the latest Snapewank? In the wake of itsylvanawood came to ravenstar84's LJ and made really special comments:
sylvanawood
I can't moderate the community strictly, I have to keep to the bare necessities, that's why everyone has to fend for themselves and try to not get too upset. Believe me, I often feel uncomfortable with some of the posts of various people as well, but that doesn't mean that I will stop people from saying what they want to say.
Snape fans get flak enough elsewhere. On the snapedom com, they can be as crazy as they want to be. What's important to me is that you have the option to have your say, and if it's done without getting too offensive (like yelling that someone should burn, that's not acceptable) and with a signature to it, it will stand there. It may be shouted out and drowned in other comments, but still, it stands there and shows that you don't agree. The loudest aren't always righ nor is the majority. That goes either way.
The trouble with these loaded discussion though is that often the emotions flare over, people lose their temper and there are a lot of trolls who just wait for that to happen. I won't help there except for screening out the trolls. (I hardly ever delete, I can get everything back if needed).
I'll post your comment over (if ij lets me, giving me trouble atm, otherwise my tomorrow) and ask people to reconsider what they said. I won't do more because otherwise I'd have to do strict modding, and I can't/won't do that.
***
theorclair
Snape fans get flak enough elsewhere.
Um, no, they don't.
If you're wondering why your specific group gets flak, well, sandyclaws68 speaks for me here.
http://www.journalfen.net/community/the
To quote:
The problem here, sylvanawood, is that your Snapedom community is not for Snape fans. It is for people who have twisted the character beyond all recognition of JKR's creation. Face facts; the "Severus" that so many of your members discuss bears absolutely NO resemblance to the character as portrayed in the original work.
But it goes beyond that. Your membership uses their twisted interpretations of the character to denigrate and dismiss REAL WORLD issues. In their quest to justify believing that "Severus" is the greatest person ever to have lived and his motives always as pure as the driven snow they have:
1) Equated Lupin's lycanthropy with pedophilia, thereby making a mockery of the very real problem of sexual abuse of children
2) Dismissed Lily's reaction to being called "Mudblood" because it supposedly isn't analogous ENOUGH to N***er
3) Implied that Lily somehow owed Snape her vagina something because he had loved her all those years, thereby reinforcing the sexist idea that women's feelings have no place in a relationship and they should just shut up and do as they're told
4) Used the real life suicides of bullied teenagers to blacken characters other than "Severus" while denying that he himself is a bully, making light of another very real problem in our world
5) Endlessly debated the semantics of bigotry and prejudice in a community wide effort to deny the books' blatant analogy of WW blood prejudice to RW racism, again because it isn't analogous ENOUGH for them
6) Shown themselves on countless occasions related to #4 to be horribly prejudiced, or at the least to have deeply negative views of certain "types" of people
7) Mocked the brutal murder of a 14 year old boy because he was "popular"
Those are just off the top of my head without digging into the STFU archives. I could probably go on, but do I really need to? The fact is that the members of Snapedom are getting "flak" for very good reasons, not one of which has a damned thing to do with liking the character. Because Snapedom-ers DON'T like Snape; if they did they'd see the character for EVERYTHING he is, including his massive flaws. So get down off of that high horse and look at the situation for what it really is, grow a set, and moderate the damned community.
-1,678,943 on the Love scale,
Me
sylvanawood
Do I have to cry now?
I apologize to ravenstar84, I have no wish to hijack her thread, and I don't normally come and stalk people who aren't on my flist, and cause havock.
Anyway, I'm not wondering at all why snapedom is a target. But, to set this straight right at the beginning: to me, sites like STFU and fandom_wank are the dregs from the bottom of the fandom. A bunch of self-righteous, presumptuous people with an inflated ego who think their definitions of canon or character are The Truth (TM, whose mission in fandom is to bring people to their own level of enlightenment and who have nothing better to do than point and laugh about other people. Like a bunch of gossips. For goodness sake, the other day a fanfic was their target. Fanfic. I mean, sporking is one thing, but a (well-written) fic on a wank site? Gosh! So, excuse my tired feet if I don't respect these wank-gossips and take anything that comes from that part of the fandom with a big, big question mark.
So people go on a tangent about their interpretation of Snape and other characters? So what? As long as they stick to the books and don't post horrible things as in this last case, I roll my eyes and let them. Did you ever look at HP Essays? Do I go and single out all the places where people wax about the wonderfulness of the Marauders? Of course not, they are entitled to their tangents just as the Snape fans are. So you don't agree with some of the people there that Snape is a Saint? Guess what, neither do I. But that doesn't matter.
Many people on Snapedom see Snape for exactly who he is. Some people are more vocal than others. Some people know when the continuation of a discussion makes sense and when you just have to stop. Those who have the last word seldom are right. Snapedom tolerates them all and will continue to do so, whether the haughties on the wank sites like that or not.
And Snape fans did get and still get wank, no matter if they go on a tangent or if they see him with flaws and still like him.
Apart from that, if you want to know how Snapedom works, read the rules. I'm not going to hang out here any longer.
If you want to know what "well-written fanfic"sylvanawood is talking about, look at those links:
A bucketful of Snapewank
Harmonian wank with a Snapewank chaser.
ravenstar84 pointed out that the comments made by mary_j_59 and totalreadr were problematic. sylvanawood agreed that totalreadr's comment crossed the line and posted an apology, but an imperfect one:
sylvanawood
The post from which the following quote originates, has been removed because it is offensive. But since I don't like for difficult topics to be swept under the carpet, I've been opening this thread.
I remind you that this community is for a discussion of books and fictional characters. It's not about discussing general principles. In this case, though, I feel that an exception needs to be made. Discussions always will have 'real world' elements, but they should be kept to a minimum. In this case things went too far.
totalreadr wrote: Oh, I dunno. The whole reason I couldn't get up much sympathy for Emmett Till over on terri's lj was because he was popular and "acting macho." In my reading on the case I even found his family quoted as expressing that his death was *especially* tragic because he *was* so popular! For me their cris de coeur Did Not Work As Intended in the same way that Gerda Weissman Klein's /All But My Life/ did not (http://raisin-gal.livejournal.com/1
Emmett Till was popular, macho, had a bright future, etc....up north. Down south, none of that mattered because he was still black.
This is, indeed, a horrible thing to say, and for once I have to agree with the trolls who come here and shout their protest. Why is no one of the regulars protesting this? Do I have to open up the community for anonymous users to protest stuff like that? I'm trying to protect you guys and give you a niche, but that doesn't mean that stuff like this can just stand.
Racism can, perhaps, be debated in an academical manner when it is about fictional characters. This is about a real, horrible lynch murder. This is crossing the line.
Here's the link from ravenstar84 again: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmett_Til
Yes, I know, like others who hang out on her journal she's one of the wank trolls. But sometimes the trolls are right.
Comments here are open and remain so, and for once, I won't screen out the anonymous posts. Perhaps you can clarify this with a minimum of civility.
sylvanawood refused to admit that the comment made by mary_j_59 was offensive and the faily conversation with ravenstar84 ensued:
sylvanawoodravenstar84 posted this to my troll thread
I closed that one for comments since it's the wrong place.
Please reconsider what you're saying and how, everyone. Try not to be patronizing and not to flame. And a word to Americans: it's not only people of colour who can be subjects to racism. Maybe keep that in mind, too, before you accuse 'white people' of ignorance or guess at the feelings of 'coloured people'. They may be just that, but maybe they know what they are talking about. I won't interfere more than that.
Here's her post.
Wikipedia Emmett Till. I'm sure Wikipedia's article is only the condensed version of it, but it should explain why totalreadr's comment was just sick. Add to the fact that there was a period of time in the U.S. where white men would use the "defending a white woman's honor" excuse whenever they brutally murdered a black man.
Mary_J_59 is a white American woman. She is never going to experience what it's like to be a woman of color. Her explanation of racism and the experience of women of color is completely off and just proves she really doesn't know what she's talking about. Not to mention that her comment was really condescending, considering at least two women of color (including myself) have tried to explain why Lily's situation reflects ours. But she refused to listen. Which is the typical behavior of a lot of white Americans (or anyone who isn't an ethnic minority in their country) who don't have their privilege checked.
Re: An addition and plea for moderation
ravenstar84
"And a word to Americans: it's not only people of colour who can be subjects to racism. Maybe keep that in mind, too, before you accuse 'white people' of ignorance or guess at the feelings of 'coloured people'. They may be just that, but maybe they know what they are talking about. I won't interfere more than that."
Just to clarify, my labeling of mary_j_59 as a white American woman is someone who both benefits from white privilege and has never experienced racism due to her race or ethnic origin. I understand people of color are not the only people subject to racism. Even in America that is not the case.
Re: An addition and plea for moderation
sylvanawood
It's good if you understand that. But your picking on mary_j_59 is completely uncalled for and has nothing to do with the other issue. You don't know in which way she has or hasn't been discriminated in the past. You simply assume that as a white woman she is privileged. Which brings you quite close to discrimination-think, too. It happens quickly. It happens as soon as you assume things about other people you don't know about and haven't experienced yourself.
That's why we talk to each other, to share the experience and educate each other about our misconceptions. But that's not what you want, is it? You're here to pick on one of the 'Snapefen' and run to your wanky-sites to have a laugh. Oh, I am assuming things? Tsk.
Why don't you and your friends write a post about your stand on this, where others can reply, for a change? It's so easy to hop in here and there, anonymous or not, and yell at other people's ideas.
Again, this has nothing to do with the other post, which will be removed. That one is adressed elsewhere.
Re: An addition and plea for moderation
ravenstar84
"You simply assume that as a white woman she is privileged."
White people benefit from white privilege. That's fact. And it's not just an American concept either.
My key phrasing in my last post was "both benefits from white privilege and has never experienced racism due to her race or ethnic origin." I've read up on mary_j_59 through her LJ and my past conversations with her. As far as I'm aware, she isn't part of any ethnic and/or religious minority that intertwines with race. Whether she has or lacks class privilege or suffers from any other ism is not relevant. This was solely about racism and her comment about women of color, which she is not.
Re: An addition and plea for moderation
sylvanawood
Ever heard about the phrase: debate the subject, not the debater? Debate what she said all you want, but leave the person out of it. That's how it's done properly, everything else leads to wank. Don't call names, don't get personal. It's a lot more efficient, too. But it also takes more effort.
Re: An addition and plea for moderation
ravenstar84
"debate the subject, not the debater?"
True, but plenty of us handle isms differently. Especially when someone who doesn't share our experience decides to speak for us without listening to what they've been told before.
Re: An addition and plea for moderation
sylvanawood
And it's perfectly ok to challenge that. Go for the content, but don't get personal. Mary didn't say: posterxyz is a coloured woman. I don't know why she identifies... She said: coloured women identify...
So, if you reply: you are wrong: coloured women don't identify and white women are privileged... that would be ok. But waxing on your journal, on wank sites, whereever about what 'mary_j said' will only upset people but not make them want to listen to you.
The unpersonal approach is a lot less offensive and doesn't heat up discussions as the personal approach does. That way, people are usually more open to listen and learn. If that is what you want.
Re: An addition and plea for moderation
ravenstar84
"She said: coloured women identify..."
Just because she didn't specify me or someone else doesn't mean she's not talking about people like me. And honestly, due to my conversations with her and others about racism and misogyny in Snape fandom, I wasn't counting on her listening. And the only reason I attempted to reach out to you about this is because I believe you when you say you want Snape fans to have safe space. But if things like this keep up, it can't be. THESE are the reasons why Snapedom gets reported on wank sites and ranted about. And the ranting is coming from Snape fans as well.
Re: An addition and plea for moderation
sylvanawood
You honestly have no idea about how a civil debate is led, do you? What do they teach you at school, bullylikemarauders101? Or maybe pointandlaugh?
You are stalking a journal of a woman who hasn't done anything to you except for disagreeing on an interpretation of fictional characters. She used bad judgement in a post and generalized. She should have said: some women of colour, and not women of colour. You have no clue how to keep a discussion unpersonal, apparently.
Instead, you have to go and make it personal, stalk and point, and post her name all over the place. That doesn't win you any sympathies. Nor your buddies who do likewise. These aren't the reason why Snapedom gets reported either (reported? Goodness, who are these sites, the fandom police?). They regulary get posts there, because there is a large group of people out there who thinks that jkr can do no wrong, and as soon as you contradict: bingo. A part of that group is also of the opinion that Lily is a saint, you contradict: bingo. Yet another part of that group thinks that because they have another skin colour than pink they know all there is about discrimiination and woe if you dare to not compare everything in the books to what people of colour have and had to go through. Bingo.
You get the gist.
There's such a thing as agreeing to disagree, letting people do their crazy and ignoring them, or, as was the case now, yelling at me until I take action when something crosses the line (which wasn't Mary's post). That's what keeps things peaceful. Running to your journal, summoning backup from your flist and then returning here trolling for your little wank sites won't help anyone. And don't think I don't know that your wank sites don't tolerate trolling. That's why so many of you come and post anonymous to cause wank. Then you can go and innocently report the wank. So excuse me when I'm doubtful about your sincerety.
Re: An addition and plea for moderation
ravenstar84
I'm bullying like the Marauders now? Really? Since when are they an ethnic minority and have "bullied" those with racial privilege who condescendingly tried to speak for their experience?
And since when is reading someone's PUBLIC journal stalking? Especially if I've interacted with this person before? My journal and parts of my profile that I don't have hidden are available for anyone to read. Go have at it. That's what it's for.
And once again, I'm one of those women of color who identify with Lily. Her insulting comment was directed to people like me.
"They regulary get posts there, because there is a large group of people out there who thinks that jkr can do no wrong, and as soon as you contradict: bingo. A part of that group is also of the opinion that Lily is a saint, you contradict: bingo. Yet another part of that group thinks that because they have another skin colour than pink they know all there is about discrimiination and woe if you dare to not compare everything in the books to what people of colour have and had to go through."
No, they're not the fandom police and don't claim to be. Wank sites are there to mock things that come off as ridiculous and/or offensive. It has nothing to do with JKR or Lily worship. Heck, Harry Potter fandom isn't even the only thing they mock, neither is Snape fandom. If post from Snapedom are getting posted on there and people find some things offensive, maybe that tells you something. And yes, you would think people who experience racism who don't benefit from white privilege would know a thing or two about racism and how certain aspects in the books reflect that. Cause you know, we live it.
And yea, I go to my journal and rant. I figure that's what a livejournal is for, to talk about whatever it is you feel like and sharing it with who ever you want. And in nowhere in my rant did I summon anyone to back me up or to come after you or Snapedom.
I don't know what anons come here. Though I've noticed that in all my past reading of this site, the only time anons come to give you flak is when something offensive is said. Other than that, no one ever bothers to talk about Snapedom.
For this case, I figure if you werent' going to listen to an anon, you would listen to someone who had their name signed on. You're the one who said you wanted to give Snapedom a safe space. The only intention I had was letting you know why the comments made were appalling and why comments like these don't make Snapedom a safe space. Again, it's totally up to you on what you want to do. With that, I think I've said more than enough to you and this comm, so this will be the last of my rambling.
Re: An addition and plea for moderation
sylvanawood
I didn't thank you for being insistent, did I? I do, now, that was a good thing you did, posting with your name and yelling at me until I reacted. I don't want that to be drowned out by the other issues. Thank you.
I really would like to give you the benefit of the doubt. But I'm having a hard time doing it. These wank sites you praise so highly, I'm following them, never fear. I see what crap gets posted there. Sometimes these people are so desperate that they take every excuse to just be able to post something. As I said to your friend on your flist, the other day they had fanfic there. For crying out loud! If you can't see how ridiculous this is, then I'm sorry for you.
Mary is well aware that she offended you and she is more than willing to post an apology, but we'll have the other issue run its course first.
Certainly you see that there is a difference. I'm sorry that you and other women of colour were offended by her words, but surely that can be forgiven, since she understands it and tries to do better. We all make assumptions from time to time as I tried to tell you earlier. I would not have interfered at all if it had been only for Mary's post.
That other issue, however, can't be tolerated, nor forgiven easily and I am glad you were insistent enough to bring it to my attention.
There is a misunderstanding here. Snapedom is not a safe space per se. It is a safe space for Snape fans to say what they want if they are ready to fend for themselves. This is not the case on many other sites where you used to be shouted down if you said as much as 'Snape isn't all bad.' I've been there, I know how it goes. Not on all boards, but on some, and on many of the big ones. But not here.
I only step in very rarely, I simply don't have the time for strict moderation, and I seldom participate in discussions. But if people are up to it, they are welcome to go on whichever tangent they like, within reason, and as long as they keep it to fictional characters. Yes, there is a difference.
So, if you take things personal, tell people that you feel offended but don't generalize and act as if you own canon, the definition of racism, the world and everything, The Truth(TM). Learn to differntiate between someone who is callous and someone who is thoughtless. The first will yell, the second will apologize. Look at who can be argued with and who always goes off on a tangent. And I tell you something, even if you roll your eyes and think: they again, here we go... sometimes, among the wilde ideas, there is actually something interesting you might not have thought about earlier. And that's what counts. Not all people on fandom_wank are self-righteous pricks. Not all people on snapedom are deluded fangirls.
So, if I can let the wank sites wank all they want and don't go to troll there, why do they have to come and troll here? They can wank on their sites all they want, but I don't tolerate trolls and anyone who's associated with trolls here. And what do you know, we're on fandom_wank again. How surprised I am!
sylvanawood's comment about sailorlum's plea is a thing of beauty, too.
Remember the latest Snapewank? In the wake of it
sylvanawood came to ravenstar84's LJ and made really special comments:sylvanawood
I can't moderate the community strictly, I have to keep to the bare necessities, that's why everyone has to fend for themselves and try to not get too upset. Believe me, I often feel uncomfortable with some of the posts of various people as well, but that doesn't mean that I will stop people from saying what they want to say.
Snape fans get flak enough elsewhere. On the snapedom com, they can be as crazy as they want to be. What's important to me is that you have the option to have your say, and if it's done without getting too offensive (like yelling that someone should burn, that's not acceptable) and with a signature to it, it will stand there. It may be shouted out and drowned in other comments, but still, it stands there and shows that you don't agree. The loudest aren't always righ nor is the majority. That goes either way.
The trouble with these loaded discussion though is that often the emotions flare over, people lose their temper and there are a lot of trolls who just wait for that to happen. I won't help there except for screening out the trolls. (I hardly ever delete, I can get everything back if needed).
I'll post your comment over (if ij lets me, giving me trouble atm, otherwise my tomorrow) and ask people to reconsider what they said. I won't do more because otherwise I'd have to do strict modding, and I can't/won't do that.
***
theorclair
Snape fans get flak enough elsewhere.
Um, no, they don't.
If you're wondering why your specific group gets flak, well, sandyclaws68 speaks for me here.
http://www.journalfen.net/community/the
To quote:
The problem here, sylvanawood, is that your Snapedom community is not for Snape fans. It is for people who have twisted the character beyond all recognition of JKR's creation. Face facts; the "Severus" that so many of your members discuss bears absolutely NO resemblance to the character as portrayed in the original work.
But it goes beyond that. Your membership uses their twisted interpretations of the character to denigrate and dismiss REAL WORLD issues. In their quest to justify believing that "Severus" is the greatest person ever to have lived and his motives always as pure as the driven snow they have:
1) Equated Lupin's lycanthropy with pedophilia, thereby making a mockery of the very real problem of sexual abuse of children
2) Dismissed Lily's reaction to being called "Mudblood" because it supposedly isn't analogous ENOUGH to N***er
3) Implied that Lily somehow owed Snape her vagina something because he had loved her all those years, thereby reinforcing the sexist idea that women's feelings have no place in a relationship and they should just shut up and do as they're told
4) Used the real life suicides of bullied teenagers to blacken characters other than "Severus" while denying that he himself is a bully, making light of another very real problem in our world
5) Endlessly debated the semantics of bigotry and prejudice in a community wide effort to deny the books' blatant analogy of WW blood prejudice to RW racism, again because it isn't analogous ENOUGH for them
6) Shown themselves on countless occasions related to #4 to be horribly prejudiced, or at the least to have deeply negative views of certain "types" of people
7) Mocked the brutal murder of a 14 year old boy because he was "popular"
Those are just off the top of my head without digging into the STFU archives. I could probably go on, but do I really need to? The fact is that the members of Snapedom are getting "flak" for very good reasons, not one of which has a damned thing to do with liking the character. Because Snapedom-ers DON'T like Snape; if they did they'd see the character for EVERYTHING he is, including his massive flaws. So get down off of that high horse and look at the situation for what it really is, grow a set, and moderate the damned community.
-1,678,943 on the Love scale,
Me
sylvanawood
Do I have to cry now?
I apologize to ravenstar84, I have no wish to hijack her thread, and I don't normally come and stalk people who aren't on my flist, and cause havock.
Anyway, I'm not wondering at all why snapedom is a target. But, to set this straight right at the beginning: to me, sites like STFU and fandom_wank are the dregs from the bottom of the fandom. A bunch of self-righteous, presumptuous people with an inflated ego who think their definitions of canon or character are The Truth (TM, whose mission in fandom is to bring people to their own level of enlightenment and who have nothing better to do than point and laugh about other people. Like a bunch of gossips. For goodness sake, the other day a fanfic was their target. Fanfic. I mean, sporking is one thing, but a (well-written) fic on a wank site? Gosh! So, excuse my tired feet if I don't respect these wank-gossips and take anything that comes from that part of the fandom with a big, big question mark.
So people go on a tangent about their interpretation of Snape and other characters? So what? As long as they stick to the books and don't post horrible things as in this last case, I roll my eyes and let them. Did you ever look at HP Essays? Do I go and single out all the places where people wax about the wonderfulness of the Marauders? Of course not, they are entitled to their tangents just as the Snape fans are. So you don't agree with some of the people there that Snape is a Saint? Guess what, neither do I. But that doesn't matter.
Many people on Snapedom see Snape for exactly who he is. Some people are more vocal than others. Some people know when the continuation of a discussion makes sense and when you just have to stop. Those who have the last word seldom are right. Snapedom tolerates them all and will continue to do so, whether the haughties on the wank sites like that or not.
And Snape fans did get and still get wank, no matter if they go on a tangent or if they see him with flaws and still like him.
Apart from that, if you want to know how Snapedom works, read the rules. I'm not going to hang out here any longer.
If you want to know what "well-written fanfic"
sylvanawood is talking about, look at those links:A bucketful of Snapewank
Harmonian wank with a Snapewank chaser.
ravenstar84 pointed out that the comments made by mary_j_59 and totalreadr were problematic. sylvanawood agreed that totalreadr's comment crossed the line and posted an apology, but an imperfect one:sylvanawood
The post from which the following quote originates, has been removed because it is offensive. But since I don't like for difficult topics to be swept under the carpet, I've been opening this thread.
I remind you that this community is for a discussion of books and fictional characters. It's not about discussing general principles. In this case, though, I feel that an exception needs to be made. Discussions always will have 'real world' elements, but they should be kept to a minimum. In this case things went too far.
totalreadr wrote: Oh, I dunno. The whole reason I couldn't get up much sympathy for Emmett Till over on terri's lj was because he was popular and "acting macho." In my reading on the case I even found his family quoted as expressing that his death was *especially* tragic because he *was* so popular! For me their cris de coeur Did Not Work As Intended in the same way that Gerda Weissman Klein's /All But My Life/ did not (http://raisin-gal.livejournal.com/1
Emmett Till was popular, macho, had a bright future, etc....up north. Down south, none of that mattered because he was still black.
This is, indeed, a horrible thing to say, and for once I have to agree with the trolls who come here and shout their protest. Why is no one of the regulars protesting this? Do I have to open up the community for anonymous users to protest stuff like that? I'm trying to protect you guys and give you a niche, but that doesn't mean that stuff like this can just stand.
Racism can, perhaps, be debated in an academical manner when it is about fictional characters. This is about a real, horrible lynch murder. This is crossing the line.
Here's the link from ravenstar84 again: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmett_Til
Yes, I know, like others who hang out on her journal she's one of the wank trolls. But sometimes the trolls are right.
Comments here are open and remain so, and for once, I won't screen out the anonymous posts. Perhaps you can clarify this with a minimum of civility.
sylvanawood refused to admit that the comment made by mary_j_59 was offensive and the faily conversation with ravenstar84 ensued:sylvanawoodravenstar84 posted this to my troll thread
I closed that one for comments since it's the wrong place.
Please reconsider what you're saying and how, everyone. Try not to be patronizing and not to flame. And a word to Americans: it's not only people of colour who can be subjects to racism. Maybe keep that in mind, too, before you accuse 'white people' of ignorance or guess at the feelings of 'coloured people'. They may be just that, but maybe they know what they are talking about. I won't interfere more than that.
Here's her post.
Wikipedia Emmett Till. I'm sure Wikipedia's article is only the condensed version of it, but it should explain why totalreadr's comment was just sick. Add to the fact that there was a period of time in the U.S. where white men would use the "defending a white woman's honor" excuse whenever they brutally murdered a black man.
Mary_J_59 is a white American woman. She is never going to experience what it's like to be a woman of color. Her explanation of racism and the experience of women of color is completely off and just proves she really doesn't know what she's talking about. Not to mention that her comment was really condescending, considering at least two women of color (including myself) have tried to explain why Lily's situation reflects ours. But she refused to listen. Which is the typical behavior of a lot of white Americans (or anyone who isn't an ethnic minority in their country) who don't have their privilege checked.
Re: An addition and plea for moderation
ravenstar84
"And a word to Americans: it's not only people of colour who can be subjects to racism. Maybe keep that in mind, too, before you accuse 'white people' of ignorance or guess at the feelings of 'coloured people'. They may be just that, but maybe they know what they are talking about. I won't interfere more than that."
Just to clarify, my labeling of mary_j_59 as a white American woman is someone who both benefits from white privilege and has never experienced racism due to her race or ethnic origin. I understand people of color are not the only people subject to racism. Even in America that is not the case.
Re: An addition and plea for moderation
sylvanawood
It's good if you understand that. But your picking on mary_j_59 is completely uncalled for and has nothing to do with the other issue. You don't know in which way she has or hasn't been discriminated in the past. You simply assume that as a white woman she is privileged. Which brings you quite close to discrimination-think, too. It happens quickly. It happens as soon as you assume things about other people you don't know about and haven't experienced yourself.
That's why we talk to each other, to share the experience and educate each other about our misconceptions. But that's not what you want, is it? You're here to pick on one of the 'Snapefen' and run to your wanky-sites to have a laugh. Oh, I am assuming things? Tsk.
Why don't you and your friends write a post about your stand on this, where others can reply, for a change? It's so easy to hop in here and there, anonymous or not, and yell at other people's ideas.
Again, this has nothing to do with the other post, which will be removed. That one is adressed elsewhere.
Re: An addition and plea for moderation
ravenstar84
"You simply assume that as a white woman she is privileged."
White people benefit from white privilege. That's fact. And it's not just an American concept either.
My key phrasing in my last post was "both benefits from white privilege and has never experienced racism due to her race or ethnic origin." I've read up on mary_j_59 through her LJ and my past conversations with her. As far as I'm aware, she isn't part of any ethnic and/or religious minority that intertwines with race. Whether she has or lacks class privilege or suffers from any other ism is not relevant. This was solely about racism and her comment about women of color, which she is not.
Re: An addition and plea for moderation
sylvanawood
Ever heard about the phrase: debate the subject, not the debater? Debate what she said all you want, but leave the person out of it. That's how it's done properly, everything else leads to wank. Don't call names, don't get personal. It's a lot more efficient, too. But it also takes more effort.
Re: An addition and plea for moderation
ravenstar84
"debate the subject, not the debater?"
True, but plenty of us handle isms differently. Especially when someone who doesn't share our experience decides to speak for us without listening to what they've been told before.
Re: An addition and plea for moderation
sylvanawood
And it's perfectly ok to challenge that. Go for the content, but don't get personal. Mary didn't say: posterxyz is a coloured woman. I don't know why she identifies... She said: coloured women identify...
So, if you reply: you are wrong: coloured women don't identify and white women are privileged... that would be ok. But waxing on your journal, on wank sites, whereever about what 'mary_j said' will only upset people but not make them want to listen to you.
The unpersonal approach is a lot less offensive and doesn't heat up discussions as the personal approach does. That way, people are usually more open to listen and learn. If that is what you want.
Re: An addition and plea for moderation
ravenstar84
"She said: coloured women identify..."
Just because she didn't specify me or someone else doesn't mean she's not talking about people like me. And honestly, due to my conversations with her and others about racism and misogyny in Snape fandom, I wasn't counting on her listening. And the only reason I attempted to reach out to you about this is because I believe you when you say you want Snape fans to have safe space. But if things like this keep up, it can't be. THESE are the reasons why Snapedom gets reported on wank sites and ranted about. And the ranting is coming from Snape fans as well.
Re: An addition and plea for moderation
sylvanawood
You honestly have no idea about how a civil debate is led, do you? What do they teach you at school, bullylikemarauders101? Or maybe pointandlaugh?
You are stalking a journal of a woman who hasn't done anything to you except for disagreeing on an interpretation of fictional characters. She used bad judgement in a post and generalized. She should have said: some women of colour, and not women of colour. You have no clue how to keep a discussion unpersonal, apparently.
Instead, you have to go and make it personal, stalk and point, and post her name all over the place. That doesn't win you any sympathies. Nor your buddies who do likewise. These aren't the reason why Snapedom gets reported either (reported? Goodness, who are these sites, the fandom police?). They regulary get posts there, because there is a large group of people out there who thinks that jkr can do no wrong, and as soon as you contradict: bingo. A part of that group is also of the opinion that Lily is a saint, you contradict: bingo. Yet another part of that group thinks that because they have another skin colour than pink they know all there is about discrimiination and woe if you dare to not compare everything in the books to what people of colour have and had to go through. Bingo.
You get the gist.
There's such a thing as agreeing to disagree, letting people do their crazy and ignoring them, or, as was the case now, yelling at me until I take action when something crosses the line (which wasn't Mary's post). That's what keeps things peaceful. Running to your journal, summoning backup from your flist and then returning here trolling for your little wank sites won't help anyone. And don't think I don't know that your wank sites don't tolerate trolling. That's why so many of you come and post anonymous to cause wank. Then you can go and innocently report the wank. So excuse me when I'm doubtful about your sincerety.
Re: An addition and plea for moderation
ravenstar84
I'm bullying like the Marauders now? Really? Since when are they an ethnic minority and have "bullied" those with racial privilege who condescendingly tried to speak for their experience?
And since when is reading someone's PUBLIC journal stalking? Especially if I've interacted with this person before? My journal and parts of my profile that I don't have hidden are available for anyone to read. Go have at it. That's what it's for.
And once again, I'm one of those women of color who identify with Lily. Her insulting comment was directed to people like me.
"They regulary get posts there, because there is a large group of people out there who thinks that jkr can do no wrong, and as soon as you contradict: bingo. A part of that group is also of the opinion that Lily is a saint, you contradict: bingo. Yet another part of that group thinks that because they have another skin colour than pink they know all there is about discrimiination and woe if you dare to not compare everything in the books to what people of colour have and had to go through."
No, they're not the fandom police and don't claim to be. Wank sites are there to mock things that come off as ridiculous and/or offensive. It has nothing to do with JKR or Lily worship. Heck, Harry Potter fandom isn't even the only thing they mock, neither is Snape fandom. If post from Snapedom are getting posted on there and people find some things offensive, maybe that tells you something. And yes, you would think people who experience racism who don't benefit from white privilege would know a thing or two about racism and how certain aspects in the books reflect that. Cause you know, we live it.
And yea, I go to my journal and rant. I figure that's what a livejournal is for, to talk about whatever it is you feel like and sharing it with who ever you want. And in nowhere in my rant did I summon anyone to back me up or to come after you or Snapedom.
I don't know what anons come here. Though I've noticed that in all my past reading of this site, the only time anons come to give you flak is when something offensive is said. Other than that, no one ever bothers to talk about Snapedom.
For this case, I figure if you werent' going to listen to an anon, you would listen to someone who had their name signed on. You're the one who said you wanted to give Snapedom a safe space. The only intention I had was letting you know why the comments made were appalling and why comments like these don't make Snapedom a safe space. Again, it's totally up to you on what you want to do. With that, I think I've said more than enough to you and this comm, so this will be the last of my rambling.
Re: An addition and plea for moderation
sylvanawood
I didn't thank you for being insistent, did I? I do, now, that was a good thing you did, posting with your name and yelling at me until I reacted. I don't want that to be drowned out by the other issues. Thank you.
I really would like to give you the benefit of the doubt. But I'm having a hard time doing it. These wank sites you praise so highly, I'm following them, never fear. I see what crap gets posted there. Sometimes these people are so desperate that they take every excuse to just be able to post something. As I said to your friend on your flist, the other day they had fanfic there. For crying out loud! If you can't see how ridiculous this is, then I'm sorry for you.
Mary is well aware that she offended you and she is more than willing to post an apology, but we'll have the other issue run its course first.
Certainly you see that there is a difference. I'm sorry that you and other women of colour were offended by her words, but surely that can be forgiven, since she understands it and tries to do better. We all make assumptions from time to time as I tried to tell you earlier. I would not have interfered at all if it had been only for Mary's post.
That other issue, however, can't be tolerated, nor forgiven easily and I am glad you were insistent enough to bring it to my attention.
There is a misunderstanding here. Snapedom is not a safe space per se. It is a safe space for Snape fans to say what they want if they are ready to fend for themselves. This is not the case on many other sites where you used to be shouted down if you said as much as 'Snape isn't all bad.' I've been there, I know how it goes. Not on all boards, but on some, and on many of the big ones. But not here.
I only step in very rarely, I simply don't have the time for strict moderation, and I seldom participate in discussions. But if people are up to it, they are welcome to go on whichever tangent they like, within reason, and as long as they keep it to fictional characters. Yes, there is a difference.
So, if you take things personal, tell people that you feel offended but don't generalize and act as if you own canon, the definition of racism, the world and everything, The Truth(TM). Learn to differntiate between someone who is callous and someone who is thoughtless. The first will yell, the second will apologize. Look at who can be argued with and who always goes off on a tangent. And I tell you something, even if you roll your eyes and think: they again, here we go... sometimes, among the wilde ideas, there is actually something interesting you might not have thought about earlier. And that's what counts. Not all people on fandom_wank are self-righteous pricks. Not all people on snapedom are deluded fangirls.
So, if I can let the wank sites wank all they want and don't go to troll there, why do they have to come and troll here? They can wank on their sites all they want, but I don't tolerate trolls and anyone who's associated with trolls here. And what do you know, we're on fandom_wank again. How surprised I am!
sylvanawood's comment about sailorlum's plea is a thing of beauty, too.
