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alexa
2011-02-03 09:43 pm UTC (link)

Jerry has made a post addressing the issue. It's certainly better than some of the slimy crap Mike has been throwing up on twitter.

A couple things, though: he doesn't seem to get that what a lot of people are objecting to isn't necessarily the original comic. Many people didn't read the comic as "pro-rape", and understood that the punchline hinged on the idea that rape was bad. But that absolutely does not excuse the subsequent responses to criticism (making a "TEAM DICKWOLVES" t-shirt, generally being taunting and dismissive, and denying that they might have done anything to warrant the backlash).

Also, he still seems to be tacitly disagreeing that rape culture really exists. Statements like "The only people who are pro-rape are rapists."... it's not exactly wrong, but it minimizes the issue. Yes, rapists must be held personally responsible for their crimes. But we live in a culture where something like one in three women and one in thirty men will experience rape or sexual assault. These aren't rare, isolated incidents. It's a fucking epidemic. Ignoring that the attitudes of rapists (toward sex, toward women, toward people in general) are fostered by a larger cultural issue is reductive and unhelpful.

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	alexa 2011-02-03 09:44 pm UTC (link)
	Oh. He also seems to be ignoring the glib, sarcastic tone of the second comic. (Reply to this)(Parent)

ekaterinv
2011-02-03 10:33 pm UTC (link)

Actually "the only people who are pro-rape are rapists" is very wrong. I don't think Johnny Depp or Whoopi Goldberg or Naomi Wolfe are rapists, but they sure as hell aren't anti-rape if the people doing the raping are people they like. And rape is one thing that, if you're not against it, you're for it.

Also, "teamrapist". People wanting to trigger victims and doing it on purpose. People telling women it's their fault when they're raped. Juries letting rapists off the majority of the time. Yeah, that's all pro-rape. All of it. I'm as tired of people making excuses for that bullshit as I am of terms like "gray rape".

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alexa
2011-02-03 10:43 pm UTC (link)

You're right. I guess I wanted to take into account that, sometimes, when people disagree with statements like "the only people responsible for rape are rapists", they're leading up to some kind of victim-blaming: "Yeah, he shouldn't have done it, but she also shouldn't have gotten so drunk with a guy she didn't know well!" Obviously, that's crap. Also, I don't think that a rapist shouldn't be able to use the existence of rape culture, or the fact that they were raised in one, as a defense for their crimes. I wanted to clarify that, when someone commits rape, they should be held 100% responsible for their crime.

Sorry for not fleshing-out my statement more clearly.

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	ekaterinv 2011-02-04 03:59 am UTC (link)
	I wasn't ranting at you, I'm sorry for coming across that way. I was just... ranting. Here, because I know it wouldn't do a lick of good elsewhere. (Reply to this)(Parent)

thehunter
2011-02-03 10:49 pm UTC (link)

Also?

The other side (that’s me, but not just me) believes that when it comes to expression nothing is off the table. It is the creator’s prerogative to create something - even something grotesque - out of anything they can find.

Believe it or not, I fall in that camp, too. But I have to say, it is really disingenuous to cast the Dickwolf Debacle in this light. It is not a matter of censorship vs. freedom of expression any more than it is a matter of gaming culture vs. delicate sensibilities. As one of my friends said, "it's about two normally-savvy and respectable human beings being jerkbags because they perceived a simple apology as losing face."

So, yeah, Jerry still doesn't get it. But at least he appears to be trying, which is more than I can say for Mike.

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	thehunter 2011-02-03 10:58 pm UTC (link)
	Replying since I can't edit: it's about two normally-savvy and respectable human beings being jerkbags because they perceived a simple apology as losing face. I didn't mean to imply that I think this is all there is to it, just that I feel like this is what really started the "controversy", rather than the comic itself or anyone's interpretation of it. (Reply to this)(Parent)

sandglass
2011-02-04 04:25 am UTC (link)

If you're going to say, "Nothing is off the table" you have to be willing to accept some goddamned criticism, otherwise we live in a horrible world. The difference between a society that allows rape jokes because it doesn't care about rape and the society that allows them but does is that in the latter, the people who make rape jokes have to answer for it.

Also, you can totally make a rape joke that doesn't support rape culture. Wanda Syke's detachable vagina bit is perfect for that.

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	littleshebear 2011-02-04 12:52 pm UTC (link)
	Exactly. Freedom of speech does not entail freedom from criticism. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	thehunter 2011-02-04 01:52 pm UTC (link)
	Agreed on all counts. But hey, they are willing to accept criticism...sometimes. You know, on the issues that really matter. ...okay, I couldn't even type that last part without wanting to vomit a little. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

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sandglass, 2011-02-04 07:31 pm UTC

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cmdr_zoom, 2011-02-04 08:31 pm UTC

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eleutheria, 2011-02-05 11:09 am UTC

kattahj
2011-02-04 07:37 pm UTC (link)

If you're going to say, "Nothing is off the table" you have to be willing to accept some goddamned criticism, otherwise we live in a horrible world.

This. I'm rather fond of dark and sometimes offensive humour, which I often think serves a psychological purpose, but I'm baffled at how often offensive comedians claim people are unreasonable for being offended. To me, it just makes no sense at all. How can you play at being "edgy" and then huff at people thinking you stepped over the edge, when that's your raison d'etre in the first place? ("You" meaning the comedian, of course, not you you.)

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sandglass, 2011-02-05 01:07 am UTC

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kattahj, 2011-02-05 10:59 am UTC

	cmdr_zoom 2011-02-04 08:31 pm UTC (link)
	Agreed. (Reply to this)(Parent)

eleutheria
2011-02-05 11:13 am UTC (link)

What I never understand about situations like this is why the creator doesn't just SHUT UP. If they really disagree with the criticism that their work is *ist, just don't say anything. Consider it a bad review and be done with it-- for the people who are upset, silence is worse than a good apology, but for everyone else, the internet moves quickly and it will forget you pretty fast if you just. be. quiet.

Yes, it definitely is your right of free speech to jam your foot far enough down your throat that it's coming out your asshole. But, you know, it's not wise.

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greenling
2011-02-03 11:04 pm UTC (link)

Well... he is telling off the people being jackasses in his name. And he is apparently trying to educate himself, and doesn't believe he's going to make anyone happy just by saying that. And personally, I empathize with "I didn't say anything because I didn't know a useful response even existed".

Still doesn't Get It. Still probably should've recognized that the second comic doesn't come off as anything but sarcastic. Still doesn't in the slightest make the other guy's actions any less goddamn stupid. Probably should've said the "stop fucking threatening people in our name" thing a while ago.

Bah.

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number13baby
2011-02-03 11:31 pm UTC (link)

Jerry still Doesn't Get It, but I do think he's trying. But, he also talks about an individual "threatening to kill someone's wife and children" (I assume Mike's?). I don't want to minimize that at all, and I do find it telling that in a debate about rape culture, someone threatened not the man involved, but his wife and kids, but. Is it this threat that prompted the response? After days and days of @teamrape vile behavior without any attempts from Mike and Jerry to step in? Not cool.

And Mike responds here, calling for all sides to drop it, as if there's some kind of equivalency here. I'm glad he's finally calling out his supporters on their behavior, but why did it take for this to hit home (via threat against his family) for him to say something? Too little too late, IMO.

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alexa
2011-02-04 12:08 am UTC (link)

Huh. I wasn't aware of the threats made on Mike's family, or their possible effect on the timeline and Jerry's response. Making threats against anyone or their family is totally despicable, and whoever made those threats, I do not believe they represent the feelings of the vast majority of people criticizing PA. There's no excuse for that kind of crap, and it completely undermines any point they thought they were making.

That said, it's unfortunate that it took threats against Mike's family for Jerry to step in, and for Mike to care about what he was saying. Something like that shouldn't have had to happen before they displayed any sympathy. (The eventual sympathy doesn't justify the threat, though. It should never have happened at all.)

It also bothers me that Mike seems to be washing his hands of the argument, even though at this point, it doesn't seem like he's actually attempted to have a serious, empathetic dialog about the issue without being "snarky, sarcastic and rude". Not that I've seen, at least. It finally got personal for him--enough to make he and his family uncomfortable--and now, he just wants to drop it and move on. But it's been "personal" for rape/assault victims since the get go. Their feelings matter too.

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number13baby
2011-02-04 01:11 am UTC (link)

It also bothers me that Mike seems to be washing his hands of the argument, even though at this point, it doesn't seem like he's actually attempted to have a serious, empathetic dialog about the issue without being "snarky, sarcastic and rude". Not that I've seen, at least. It finally got personal for him--enough to make he and his family uncomfortable--and now, he just wants to drop it and move on. But it's been "personal" for rape/assault victims since the get go. Their feelings matter too.

THIS

To clarify, I'm just speculating that this is what it took for Mike and Jerry to finally respond. The timing of their posts is a bit odd, right? It's what immediately jumped out at me.

I also don't think that the vast majority of people criticizing PA would ever encourage or condone threats against Mike's family. So for Mike to call on people on both sides to drop it was a bit disingenuous. If he had said something like "last night someone threatened my family on Twitter and this really made me think about what it feels like to be bullied like this and I'd like @teamrape to stop," that would've been one thing. I hate to make a tone argument, but something about how he frames the whole thing just rubs me the wrong way.

And, yes, I'm also bothered by the way he's washing his hands of the whole thing, like "well, I'm done with it now, ignore them." He didn't say "stop harassing people who are criticizing us" he said "ignore them." Which, yeah. All those people are trying to engage in a dialog with him because they expect better and his response is to ask that people ignore them? I'm pretty sure that it's not much of an improvement on being "snarky, sarcastic and rude." Just seems like yet another way of not engaging (and being straight up dismissive) to me.

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sandglass
2011-02-04 04:33 am UTC (link)

I love how he's ending the issue without doing anything to end it. No apology, no admission of wrongdoing, no nothing.

I wonder if the threats were made before or after he dragged his wife into it, too. Not to say those threats are at all acceptable, but dude, when your side has been making threats and calling a police department to see if one of your critics actually was raped, you can't really claim they're zomg taking it too far.

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eleutheria, 2011-02-05 11:16 am UTC

	caitiedid 2011-02-04 03:51 am UTC (link)
	Link added to the entry, thanks. (Replies frozen)(Parent)

thehunter
2011-02-04 02:13 pm UTC (link)

I am certainly guilty of being snarky, sarcastic and rude. I apologize if that gave anyone the impression that I would ever condone this sort of behavior.

That is not a real apology. To me, it reads as, "I have behaved badly. I'm sorry that you interpreted my bad behavior the way that you did." So yeah, he still doesn't get it and he obviously has no interest in getting it or in truly making amends.

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	dottiness 2011-02-04 12:42 am UTC (link)
	I'm mostly bothered that he didn't give a shit until someone issued Mike a death threat, when those threats have been flung around with wild abandon on the other side. Also, yeah, super missing the point. Can someone tell ask him if he even read Courtney Stanton's blog? Mike is being a smug asshole as ever, too, why am I unsurprised. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

esorlehcar
2011-02-05 01:15 am UTC (link)

That's what floored me. Death and rape threats--hell, organized campaigns of death and rape threats--have been taking place for months against anyone who suggested PA could have been anything less than on the side of the angels, but when Mike/Gabe gets one--one!--death threat, he is so horrified and upset he just has to put a stop to all of this.

The tweet was gross, no question about it, but come the fuck on. "Oh, these fragile flowers, overreacting just because they're getting hundreds of direct threats from my fans... OH MY GOD SOMEONE THREATENED MY FAMILY! DO YOU PEOPLE UNDERSTAND WHAT A HORRIBLE THING THAT IS?"

Fairly stunning display of egocentrism and a complete inability to see women as people.

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	dottiness 2011-02-05 01:59 am UTC (link)
	It's really like a gross example of tragedy vs. comedy. Comedy is him making a rape joke, grossly overreacting to criticism and backlash, and laughing off the terrible things his supporters are doing. But the instant someone does one, singular, terrible thing to him, that's a tragedy. (Reply to this)(Parent)

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eleutheria, 2011-02-05 11:18 am UTC

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airawyn, 2011-02-05 04:54 pm UTC

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chikane, 2011-02-05 10:00 pm UTC

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lauchlen, 2011-02-05 11:26 pm UTC

	bienegold 2011-02-05 05:54 pm UTC (link)
	Is it me, or is the tacit implication that the idea of rape culture is "radical feminism"? Because it really, really isn't. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	alexa 2011-02-05 06:11 pm UTC (link)
	It feels like they're treating it as some sort of wild "conspiracy theory" and not, you know, a widely accepted idea that's addressed in academia and respected journals, taught about in Women's Studies classes, etc. Not that it's even exclusively a "women's issue". (Reply to this)(Parent)

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