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ruslan ([info]ruslan) wrote in [info]unfunny_fandom,
@ 2010-09-26 05:05:00


Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
A Turkish woman takes umbrage at the misrepresentation of Turkey in Christopher Pike's novel The Secret of Ka. She posts a review on Amazon (and another one on LJ at bookfails) talking about her complaints with the book.

Then, a man claiming to be one of Christopher Pike's editors shows up to westsplain her own culture to her. Also he decides that she's been threatening to cut off the author's hands.

Arguments include:

1) It's okay for a major character to have an Indian name! He started off being Ahmed but readers liked this other name better. Also, Amesh sounds a lot like Ahmed. Same difference! Although it turns out Ahmed isn't even a Turkish name and Turkish people will spell it Ahmet.
2) Turkish, Kurdish, Arab ... it's all a matter of perspective! Who's to say whether a Turkish person is Arab or not? (Not you because I know more about your own ethnic background than you do.)
3) But all those people he wrote about who dress strangely and have foreign names and address their grandfathers by unusual titles are supposed to be weird! We didn't misrepresent Turkish culture at all! It's just that all of those characters are supposed to be iconoclasts or hipsters or something. Yeah.
4) I totally saw a guy wearing a turban in Turkey once! Also, taxi drivers in London and New York wear turbans. (???)
5) All cultures even tangentially related to Islam and the Middle East are segregated, war-torn, and insanely conservative. It's illegal to swear and nobody sits near women and bloody wars are waged outside of the Hilton every night. :(
6) I'm just never going to address the fact that you're offended and feel that your culture was used like a dirty rag at all!
7) u mad :(

Ah, I remember well the Turkish capital, Istanbul, that desert city.

I nicked this from a mouse at wank_report (thank you mousey!)

ETA: A clever person on Amazon dug up proof that the "editor" Michael Brite is actually a sockpuppet of Christopher Pike himself. He seems to mostly use the account to leave worshipful reviews of his own books. Seriously:

Perhaps The Best Book I Have Ever Read
Christopher Pike's "Thirst" is a masterpiece. The book is not only a fantastic thriller, a mind boggling mystery, but a spiritual revelation. Alisa is a five thousand year old vampire who kills as casually as she makes love. Yet there remains deep within her a painful and yet abiding memory and love for a man she met when she was young, a man who may have been more than a man -- the mysterious Lord Krishna from the Bhagavad Gita, the equivalent of the Indian Bible. However, please do not get the idea this book is about religion. Pike's novel is totally free of dogma. He never says Krishna is God, and his heroine is never sure who Krishna truly is. Also, he is careful not to offend anyone's faith. But there is a heart breaking passage where two of the main characters debate the existence of God. They soon come to the conclusion that "God" is impossible to define or know, but whatever Krishna was, he was too powerful, and too beautiful, to disobey. And that leads to the crux of the story. The master vampire who has created Alisa must destroy all the vampires to gain salvation. Yet, ironically, Krishna has promised Alisa she will have his protection if she obeys him and never creates another vampire. It is the clash of these two contradictory vows that stands at the heart of this brilliant novel. Reading it, I felt I was given an insight into the mystery of life itself. Why, for every good impulse in the world, is there an opposing evil? Yet Pike tells this incredible morality play without preaching. In fact, I suspect most people who read the book will simply enjoy it because it is a kick-ass novel about the most intense character in all of modern fiction. I am trying to say "Thirst" is so much more than a vampire book. It is ultimately a timeless fable of how fear can change to hatred, and then to love, and finally mature into devotion. Pike has managed a small miracle by showing us that these emotion are not truly at odds with each other. For they all reside in every human heart, in the same way, perhaps, the divine does as well. I cannot recommend this book highly enough. It changed my life forever.

ETA again: Christopher Pike has now made an impressively paranoid post on a website of his accusing the original Amazon reviewer (caligirl_08) of posting negative reviews under multiple aliases, as well as claiming that [info]bookfails is a "livejournal community sponsored by someone of Turkish background who has taken things much too far and is trying to rob fiction authors of their artistic license".

Dear Author has also caught wind of this (last item on the page).

But wait, there's more!

caligirl_08 ([info]bs_08 on [info]bookfails) tackles Pike's aforementioned sexy vampire novel, Thirst. It ... well, I'm just going to leave this here:


Initial post: Nov. 7, 2009 3:08 AM PST
Michael Brite says:
It says clearly in the book that Sita was an Aryan, a well known group who invaded India five thousand years ago. They were all blond and blue-eyed.


(Read comments) - (Post a new comment)


[info]herongale
2010-09-26 05:27 pm UTC (link)
Huh. I read the editor's remarks and didn't find them at all condescending (well, except for the bit about the reviewer being crazy at the end... and that was in reply to her comment about wishing she could cut off his hands, a comment she DOES make even though she backtracks quickly... so I think he's a bit entitled to react kind of negatively to that). His explanations were not about Turkish culture, but rather explaining why Christopher Pike made the choices he did in the book he wrote... something that an editor WOULD be qualified to explain, whether or not one agrees with the decisions made by the writer.

Re: Istanbul. The editor points out that this was an editorial and not an authorial mistake.

Re: Arabs. The editor points out that this is a mistake of the POV character. I'm assuming this Sara is an American or something, but gosh... there are tons of Americans who would assume Turkish people are Arabs, and so if that's the character's mistake it is a sensible thing to include. Depending on how entrenched the book is in the perspective of the POV character, this kind of detail is actually a GOOD thing to include, because ignorance in main characters is a nice bit of realism. (That said, perhaps a note at the end of the books explaining where Sara got some major cultural details wrong would be nice).

Having one guy in Turkey wearing a turban is a lot different from having them all do it. Similarly, I don't find it so shocking that in modern Turkey, someone might have a name that is not 100% Turkish, regardless of their cultural heritage. I know Turkey is not like America, where you are pretty much guaranteed to meet up with a mismash of names from all around the world... but it's not some kind of sealed hegemony where everyone everywhere only has approved names that come from an official book.

Anyway.

The editor there is taking a professional tone. What, should he apologize for not being Turkish while attempting to (politely) address her concerns? And personally, I find it convenient that the reviewer claims to be Turkish only after replying to his response. Maybe she is Turkish... I'm inclined to give the benefit of the doubt... but I also am not sensing any kind of level of real expertise on her part, just the kind of superficial knowledge of Turkey one might have from a little learning and Googling. If she's actually Turkish, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that she actually lives in England or America or something. The fact that she wants to insist on all details conforming to an encyclopedic idea of what Turkey is about is very telling, I think.

Certainly she doesn't come off as having the kind of cultural knowledge Orhan Pamuk shows in HIS (Turkish) novels, that's for sure.

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]herongale
2010-09-26 05:49 pm UTC (link)
* cut off PIKE'S hands, I should have said. Oops.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]sarracenia
2010-09-26 06:12 pm UTC (link)
She does say that she lives in San Diego now, even if she did live in Istanbul in the past.

And yes, I'd think it polite to apologize for blatant errors in the book, like putting Istanbul in a desert. Some of it is probably legitimate ignorant American teenager POV stuff (although I'd prefer more of an effort to try to correct the POV character's misapprehensions than it sounds like the author did), but some of it isn't, and they're such basic errors that I know I wouldn't be convinced that any research was done at all.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]seiberwing
2010-09-26 07:07 pm UTC (link)

Re: Istanbul. The editor points out that this was an editorial and not an authorial mistake.


I think a lack of two seconds on Wikipedia to figure out the capital and geography of Turkey is indeed an authorial mistake.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]eldritch
2010-09-26 08:32 pm UTC (link)
Indeed.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]sandglass
2010-09-27 02:03 am UTC (link)
Not to mention, his name is on it. He's professionally responsible for what his editors don't catch. If he's going to rely on his editors so much that he's not checking what Istanbul looks like, or what the country's capital is, it's his fault.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]coffee_mug
2010-09-26 07:27 pm UTC (link)
Meh, I get your point but it's an extremely murky water to place labels on people's cultural knowledge, who deserves to serve as an authority and who doesn't. I'm a Finn who's lived in Finland all her life, so I consider myself more an authority on Finnish culture than say, a Finnish-Canadian teen who doesn't speak the language much but spends most of their summers here.

And yet, a Welsh man who's worked and lived here, married to a Finn for decades, probably has considerable cultural knowledge over the Finnish-Canadian because even if he's not native, he's "Finnishized" over the years.

Put it another way: would I let the Welsh man or the Finnish-Canadian teen lecture me about my own culture? No. But would I consider them better sources for cultural knowledge than an American editor who just has Google at their disposal? Yes. Even with stuff where knowledge varies and there's no true answer (like customs, which may vary from area to area, from family to family), there is a point where somebody's authority on their own culture shouldn't be questioned.

And of course, sometimes if somebody is really offended, it's best just to apologise.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]snarkhunter
2010-09-27 01:40 pm UTC (link)
Even with stuff where knowledge varies and there's no true answer (like customs, which may vary from area to area, from family to family), there is a point where somebody's authority on their own culture shouldn't be questioned.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you. But it sounds to me like you're saying that ultimately a "native" or "authentic" person of a given culture can't be wrong. Take customs. Since customs vary, let's say your hypothetical Welsh man lives in a place where the custom is X; are you really in a position to say, no, you're an *authentic* Finn, and therefore the custom is Y, and you can't be questioned on that?

This is actually a serious issue in my own country (the US) right now. An awful lot of people feel like there is only one way to be American, and we can't question that. And people who aren't "authentically" American (i.e., people who aren't white descendents of northern Europeans who have been here for at least three generations, in this narrative) are wrong, wrong, wrong,and have no right to say that we're not a Christian nation.

I don't disagree with you that you are a greater authority on your culture than the Finnish-Canadian teen or an author with no apparent research skills--or even an author with fantastic research skills!! It was just that last bit that sit really uneasily with me.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]coffee_mug, 2010-09-27 05:32 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]snarkhunter, 2010-09-27 06:10 pm UTC

[info]sukeban
2010-09-26 08:44 pm UTC (link)
Re: Arabs. The editor points out that this is a mistake of the POV character. I'm assuming this Sara is an American or something, but gosh... there are tons of Americans who would assume Turkish people are Arabs, and so if that's the character's mistake it is a sensible thing to include.

Well, yeah, except that it's the wrong ethnicity, wrong language, wrong *language family*, and even wrong script.

Having one guy in Turkey wearing a turban is a lot different from having them all do it.

There's a difference between, say, a Sikh turban, the small turban some imams or those who claim descendance from Mohammed wear, and so on. But it doesn't matter, because the traditional Turkish headgear between the 1800s and 1925 was the fez, and nowadays the old-man hat of choice is the hacı takkesi. It's like having a cowboy character with a bowler or a Tyrolese hat.

Not that Turks dress that exotically, anyway.

The editor there is taking a professional tone. What, should he apologize for not being Turkish while attempting to (politely) address her concerns?

Well, apologising for glaring mistakes in the setting and shoddy research work would be nice, yes.

but I also am not sensing any kind of level of real expertise on her part, just the kind of superficial knowledge of Turkey one might have from a little learning and Googling.

That's exactly what makes the mistakes worse. It's the kind of stupidity that could have been avoided if they spent five minutes googling.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]bienegold
2010-09-26 09:36 pm UTC (link)
Thank you so much for this comment. I couldn't get my words properly wrangled.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]ruslan
2010-09-26 10:01 pm UTC (link)
There are problematic and poorly researched ideas in the book and defending it is just douchey no matter how polite and professional you think he's being.

Getting Istanbul wrong was still stupid no matter who did it.

The problem with the Arab thing is that Sara's father (who I'm guessing from context lives there/works there/is a professor of Turkish literature/a grown-ass man/in general somebody who should know better) also refers to Turkey as an Arab country and they say this in front of Turkish people like Amesh without anybody bothering to correct them.

I'm sure at least one guy in Turkey has a turban for some reason, and that some Turkish people have unusual names, and that at least one woman has been in Turkey wearing a niqab, but if there are fifteen different unlikely incidences that pass largely without comment, the net sum is an inaccurate portrayal of the country.

I don't see any particular reason to doubt that she's a Turkish woman who lived in Istanbul at some point and currently lives in San Diego. Hell, she could have immigrated six months ago, we don't know that. Although I don't see why we have to scrutinize her background. She identifies with Turkey and feels personally slighted, and she obviously knows what she's talking about far more than the editor and the author do. She doesn't need to prove she has some kind of advanced Turkish cred to be right.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]alexa, 2010-09-27 01:46 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]thebratqueen, 2010-09-27 05:14 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sandglass, 2010-09-27 02:00 am UTC

[info]eleutheria
2010-09-26 10:03 pm UTC (link)
Completely OT, but thank you so much for the Flickr links! I never would have thought of looking there and I've just spent the last hour or so looking through pictures of Turkey. Since I can't travel due to disability, that site is a neat way to see some of what I can't. Very cool!

On topic, this is a great comment, and you're right. I also think that there are ways to show that the viewpoint character is ignorant without acting like Wikipedia/lecturing in the narrative.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]sukeban, 2010-09-26 11:07 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]snarkhunter, 2010-09-27 01:42 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ruslan, 2010-09-27 06:21 pm UTC

[info]chikane
2010-09-26 10:15 pm UTC (link)
Thank you for the comment.

It's like having a cowboy character with a bowler or a Tyrolese hat.

For some reason, I don't see anyone going to defend an author who'd pull that mistake. Wonder why.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]sgaana
2010-09-27 03:04 am UTC (link)
I actually agree with your comment otherwise, but this stuck out to me:

It's like having a cowboy character with a bowler or a Tyrolese hat.

Er.... Bat Masterson wants a word with you....

(While not a "cowboy" in the purest technical sense, Masterson is one of the famous gunslinger figures of the Old West. The bowler was... just a hat, and people wore them in the Old West. No, really. They had all kinds of accents besides a Texas drawl, too, because they were immigrants who frequently headed directly West -- John Cleese's sheriff is one of the great details in the movie "Silverado".)


Otherwise, though... I'm in complete agreement that all of the mistakes add up into something incredibly sloppy, and I actually think it's WORSE because it's a YA book. The POV character being ignorant would be fine with me, because plenty of Americans are that ignorant about Turkey. But it would only be fine with me if the point of her being ignorant was so that she could have her ignorance corrected through the course of the book, and thus the readers would learn something, imagine that.

And the point really OUGHT to be that neither the editor nor the author should need to be Turkish to care about getting some very basic details about another country correct.

It makes me wonder if I'm just being hopelessly naive in thinking that people who write YA books should make even more of a point than usual to be educating those who will read the books, as well as entertaining them. (*sigh* Probably, yes.)

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - ealusaid, 2010-09-28 07:08 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sgaana, 2010-09-28 08:48 pm UTC

[info]kylenne
2010-09-27 07:51 am UTC (link)
... but I also am not sensing any kind of level of real expertise on her part, just the kind of superficial knowledge of Turkey one might have from a little learning and Googling.

WTF, did I blink and miss you revealing your secret identity as Turkishman? Your Turkish senses not tingling sufficiently? WTF is this even about?

"You're not really PoC, you're just lying on the internet to sound like an expert/start wank/shame white people" needs to be a damned bingo square if it's not already. This woman does not need to provide birth certificates to anyone, Turkishman. And to quote lauded philosopher-poet Amy Winehouse, what kind of fuckery is THIS:

If she's actually Turkish, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that she actually lives in England or America or something. The fact that she wants to insist on all details conforming to an encyclopedic idea of what Turkey is about is very telling, I think.

The only thing that's telling here is once again we have some white asshole with his ass flapping in the wind, a PoC pointing out the bare ass, and yet another white person playing 52 card pickup with the Derailing for Dummies deck rather than address the salient point that the ass is in fact naked. What the hell. You know, I'm black (I can link you cosplay photos or you can ask the wankas here who've met me in person if your black senses aren't tingling either), I was born in the United States and haven't set a damn foot anywhere in any African country in my entire life, but I am pretty sure every citizen of Nigeria (where my ancestors likely came from) doesn't sit around scamming people on the internet, that Abuja is the capital, and that they have television, fast food restaurants and running water. Am I qualified enough to make that observation?

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]kenovay
2010-09-27 08:34 am UTC (link)
THANK YOU.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]missdeep
2010-09-27 12:38 pm UTC (link)
Thank you, that was wonderful.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]snarkhunter
2010-09-27 01:43 pm UTC (link)
WIN.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]cyndra_falin
2010-09-27 07:17 pm UTC (link)
<3 <3 <3

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]staroverthebay
2010-09-28 04:41 am UTC (link)
once again we have some white asshole with his ass flapping in the wind, a PoC pointing out the bare ass, and yet another white person playing 52 card pickup with the Derailing for Dummies deck rather than address the salient point that the ass is in fact naked
This is the best description of this kind of wank EVER.

And thank you for pointing out bullshit, because my bullshit senses were tingling big-time, but I couldn't quite figure out how to say it.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]honorh, 2010-10-03 12:58 pm UTC

[info]acrimonious
2010-09-28 02:52 pm UTC (link)
Thank you.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]ekaterinv
2010-09-28 11:40 pm UTC (link)
playing 52 card pickup with the Derailing for Dummies deck rather than address the salient point that the ass is in fact naked

I love this. You speak truth.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]finchbird
2010-09-29 02:04 am UTC (link)
Thank you.

(Reply to this)(Parent)

(no subject) - [info]griffithshawk, 2010-09-29 10:52 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kittikattie, 2010-10-04 03:21 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]damien, 2010-11-14 12:28 am UTC

[info]sgaana
2010-09-27 09:43 pm UTC (link)
The fact that she wants to insist on all details conforming to an encyclopedic idea of what Turkey is about is very telling, I think.

Wanting someone to get the country's capital right, and not make BASIC mistakes regarding geography, history, and culture, is nowhere near the same thing as desiring "an encyclopedic idea" of what Turkey is about. Except in the sense that those are BASIC FACTS that any idiot could glean from an encyclopedia in about 5 seconds.

I think what is very telling about the poster's rant is that she wants the subject of Turkey to be treated with a basic level of respect with regard to what it actually is -- rather than having it portrayed as a mishmash of outdated, harmful, and incorrect stereotypes. Gosh, how unreasonable of her!

Why does it matter to you whether she has some kind of unprovable bonafides about "how Turkish she really is", when the actual problem is that the book is WRONG on multiple counts, there really isn't any excuse for it, and the editor shouldn't be defending its mistakes?

I'm not Turkish. I only worked for an archaeological dig in Turkey for 10 years. But if I'd come across this book, I would have been writing a stiff letter about it -- and a scathing Amazon review -- myself, because I don't NEED to be Turkish either to care about the country being reflected inaccurately, or to care in general about books for young adults perpetuating ignorance by feeding them a lot of inaccurate information.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]lady_jafaria, 2010-10-02 01:58 am UTC

[info]alya1989262
2010-10-03 09:27 am UTC (link)
I remember when you used to make really great comments. :(

(Reply to this)(Parent)


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