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charamei
2011-03-28 03:01 pm UTC (link)

Oh, but it belongs to ~all of humanity~ because the Romans, er, imposed their (appropriated) culture on the entire Western world 2,000 years ago.

On one level, I can sort of agree with him; a story doesn't become that timeless without in some way appealing to the universals of human nature. But that doesn't make it unGreek; that makes it Greek and timeless.

Book II of the Iliad can be greatly simplified into 'And these Greek states are better than you,' FFS.

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	the__ivorytower 2011-03-28 03:58 pm UTC (link)
	And the Greeks stole a lot of their gods, if not the specific stories, from the Etruscans. It kinda comes full circle. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	charamei 2011-03-28 04:23 pm UTC (link)
	Yep! And also from the Egyptians (good old Isis, she gets everywhere) and various unspecified Eastern religions (Y HALO THAR, DIONYSUS, YOU ARE LOOKING VERY DRUNK TODAY). It's the ciiiiiircle of liiiiiife! (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	the__ivorytower 2011-03-28 04:49 pm UTC (link)
	I adore mythology. I just wish people would give credit where credit is due. I'm looking at you, Rick Riordan. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	kosaginolegion 2011-03-28 10:30 pm UTC (link)
	Strictly speaking, mythology is this tangled mass of bits and pieces that come from all over the place. So it doesn't have much in the way of a single Truth to it. That said, Riordan is giving me a headache because my son loves his stuff and keeps trying to yammer it into my ears. sigh (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

the__ivorytower
2011-03-28 10:37 pm UTC (link)

Oh yeah, it comes from all over. The problem I have with Riordan specifically is this idea that Greek mythology exists in a bubble and the fact he relies on mythological stereotypes instead of going back to the source material for new ideas.

(Seriously, Demeter and Aphrodite don't have strong powers? Look, I realize that the phrase 'I will destroy the seasons' hasn't invoked any kind of real terror since The Legend of Zelda: the Oracle of Seasons, but in a real-world setting, destroying the seasons is *devastating*. You don't need to have the children of Demeter sitting around growing sunflowers, and there's more to Aphrodite than simply vanity. There was a perfect, marvelous occasion to prove that love can be an amazing, strong force, a statement which was made in the book itself, and not only was it totally ignored, the statement itself was completely fucking useless to the main character!)

Sorry, I'm getting awfully wanky about children's books, but mythology in the modern times is a favourite trope, and these books were so utterly disappointing.

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kosaginolegion
2011-03-28 10:46 pm UTC (link)

I'm rather glad the boy is reading the books because it means I get an idea of what's in them and whether or not I'd like them ahead of time. And when he does come up with some of his Riordan based stuff, I can counter with some of the original classical work.

And I LOVE myths. Grew up on 'em, still read them and just finished the Fontenrose books on Delphi for the sake of my NaNoWriMo. That was the one that really pointed up the sheer tangled nature of myth and why they aren't exactly like stories. (Though our stories may well be future myth and for the same reason.)

Oh, yes, and Demeter's power is definitely NOT something to screw with. Hades was really pushing his luck with Persephone. Four months of dry sere weather was getting off easy. (Or winter, if you're in a more northern climate.)

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emily_goddess
2011-03-29 04:49 am UTC (link)

There was a perfect, marvelous occasion to prove that love can be an amazing, strong force, a statement which was made in the book itself, and not only was it totally ignored, the statement itself was completely fucking useless to the main character!

Wait, which "the book" are we talking about? I thought he did a decent job in The Lost Hero of giving Aphrodite's children some real powers.

I agree with what you said about Demeter, though. I'm hoping her poor treatment is just because there hasn't been a major character from that cabin yet.

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	the__ivorytower 2011-03-29 06:03 am UTC (link)
	I'm thinking of the last one. Aphrodite makes this huge deal about love being so valuable and important, and then when one of her daughters loses someone she loves a lot... well, I kind of expected it not to kill him to begin with, and when neither his own natural ability nor love saved him, I was sorely disappointed. (Reply to this)(Parent)

napalmnacey
2011-03-30 12:24 pm UTC (link)

I'm sorry, anyone that says Demeter and Aphrodite don't have strong powers are obviously too fucking comfortable in their modern settings. Two of the most important things to human survival: Food and new generations to replace the old. Wow, guess who's in charge of those two things back then? Why yes, the ladies in charge of the weather and our sexual urges.

(I'm very fond of Aphrodite, and all the goddesses of the Greek Pantheon, so when people throw erroneous shit like that around I get fairly wanky, sorry about that *blush*).

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	sorchar 2011-03-29 12:09 am UTC (link)
	Don't worry, he may grow out of it. Mine did. He was all excited at the announcement of the movie, and by the time it came out, he was all, "Eh, not interested." (Reply to this)(Parent)

	chienne 2011-03-28 10:06 pm UTC (link)
	Srsly. Adonis and Aphrodite aren't even subtle expies of Inanna/Ishtar/Astarte and Dumuzid/Tammuz/Baal Hadad. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	napalmnacey 2011-03-30 12:26 pm UTC (link)
	It's half the reason I kind of adhere to the idea that all religions have a sort of kernel of truth you have to winkle out, and that they all have something interesting to them if you dig deep enough. Of course, I'm talking about real religions and not $c!entology and shit like that. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	notjo 2011-03-28 05:29 pm UTC (link)
	Oh shoot, someone I read recently had a really good post about her reactions as a Greek hearing that the Odyssey is not Greek, and no I can't remember where. :( (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	charamei 2011-03-28 05:43 pm UTC (link)
	I would love to be a fly on the wall of some of my old Classics professors' offices when they hear this, especially the Greek ones. Hey, maybe I'll submit it as a conversation topic for the AGM of the Hellenic Society! ~~And then report it to fandom_wank~~ (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	tofuknight 2011-03-29 12:37 am UTC (link)
	enables so hard** (Reply to this)(Parent)

	fionnabhair 2011-03-31 12:01 am UTC (link)
	Isn't Book II the one most skip, since it's just a long list of ships and the oh so awesome people on them (for pages, and pages, and pages)? (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

charamei
2011-03-31 02:47 am UTC (link)

Yes, but bear in mind that for the Greeks the Iliad was something between a perfectly true history and the Bible.

As such, it's one of the most sociopolitically important books; it's a list of who was at The Most Important Battle Of All Time, and therefore also a list of which city-states were old and distinguished enough to have taken part. There's evidence that the text was tampered with to add in Athens, which was far too young to have actually sent people. And that's even before you get into Who Sent What and look how powerful Sparta/Corinth/etc/etc was back then, son, you see, you come from a great people! Make us proud!

It also explains the Aeneid. Having a legendary founder (and everyone did, even if the truth was that they'd been founded yesterday by perfectly human people*) who went all the way back to the Iliad lent automatic superiority and historic legitimacy over all those other upstart little city-states.

And so: greatly simplified, it's just a long list of who's better than you. The blue book of Ancient Greek poleis, if you like.

*Aristocratic families also liked to add mythological figures into their genealogies.

I'm sorry if I've misread your tone and lectured you for nothing, or if this is unintelligible. It's two in the morning and I'm insomniac for the second night running, so... yeah.

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