Lily totally abused Snape!
Rabid Snape fans continue to be misogynistic douchemuffins.

Lily's Hypocrisy

Ellen2

One assumes Snape is living quietly somewhere, perhaps Canada (where he may or may not have had spend some time adjusting to which side of the road they drive on).

MinervasCat

Yes, somewhere in rural Canada, where there aren't any people around for miles and miles and he can mix potions and send red, purple, or acid green clouds rising into the air without being bothered. I think he'd be happy just being away from it all...including Lily the harping shrew. In each of the memories we see her in she is ragging on him about something. I wonder: is that really the way he remembered her? I know he loved her very, very much, but, we don't see any really happy memories that aren't ruined by her storming off in a snit about something or just giving him what-for over and over.

Silver Ink Pot

It's sad ~ I think Snape was so desperate for a friend that he learned early on to put up with anything Lily dished out.

I saw an article the other day and wondered if it applied to Snape/Lily. This might seem controversial, but it was about the way people are manipulated by others. I think Snape's personality was conducive to this type of relationship because he felt powerless with his parents, even though he probably tried to please them the best he could. We see that behavior again with Lily, and then with Dumbledore.

Anyway these were the signs, and I think these can apply to Snape with Lily even if you see their relationship just as a friendship.

1. You’re always falling short of your partner’s expectations.
2. You often feel guilty in your relationship and are always looking to repair the “damage.”
3. You don’t often know where you stand with your partner.
4. You often feel like you’re walking on eggshells around him (or her).
5. You feel confused in the relationship and keep questioning or blaming yourself for making your partner angry or frustrated.
6. You’re unhappy in your relationship at least 90 percent of the time.
7. You’re anxious about telling your partner your plans

http://turningpoint.areavoices.com/2011/03/23/7-signs-youre-dating-a-manipulator/

MinervasCat

I think that list is right out of the Domestic Violence Counselors' Handbook. Those are warning signs when you are in a potentially abusive relationship (talk about de ja vu). We used to put those out in a brochure for junior high and highschool kids to warn them what to watch out for.

It's sad that Sev had to keep asking Lily if they were best friends...that he couldn't tell. I guess, compared to Tobias, Lily's attention was a pic nic. Sad that he had to settle for that and not someone who really cared for him.

As for storming off with Severus in tow...that, IMO, was just to get to Petunia. I don't think it really indicated that Lily gave a hoot. Sorry. She is definitely on my list of people I wouldn't want to have lunch with.

With all of his snarkiness and such, at least Severus made no bones about who he was. He didn't try to be Mr. Sunshine-and-Roses. What you saw was what you got. He was that way from the first time we see him at 9 and stayed that way all his life.

That is the hypocracy that I see in Lily, James, Sirius, and even Lupin. They are alwasy so wonderful, until you scratch the surface and then find they're not all that great after all.

Silver Ink Pot

What's interesting about the scene at the train station is that Lily is oblivious to Snape's poor mother and the fact that his father is not there to see him off because she has a family to worry about. In other words, she takes it for granted that Severus should be worried more about her relationship with Petunia than the fact that no one will apparently miss him when he's gone (just like Harry and the Dursleys).

I realize they are just kids, but Lily is neither sympathetic nor observant in that scene. It's all about her drama with Petunia.

And we are supposed to dislike Sev, I guess, because he doesn't want to hear about Petunia the Muggle - that's a sign he is a budding DE at age eleven. But really, that day on the train was the happiest day of his life, and Lily was raining on his parade, not to mention he then gets insulted and tripped up by James/Sirius.

I think Snape definitely had to walk on eggshells with Lily, and she reminds him of that when she dumps him - he wasn't good enough for her and she had to "explain" him to her friends.

MinervasCat

Quote from: fifthoffive on Yesterday at 08:56:49 AM
When I mentioned Lily storming out with Severus in tow, I was referring to when they left the compartment on the train after the confrontation with James et al. Lily took up for him there, and I expect that was one of Severus's happier memories of Lily. She chose him that day.

I'm sorry. You're right. She did take Sev out of the compartment after James and Sirius got to be so obnoxious. That was the first time she "defended" him in front of them. I wonder if that was when it became a challenge to James to separate them? Nah. They were only 11. He probably didn't come up with that until he was about 13 or 14. But, that moment was a positive one for Lily. That one I'll give her

fifthoffive

I suspect that Lily was the center of most of the conflicts. Lily was the prize to be won, not on her own account (at least at first), but by separating her from Severus, James et al. would be asserting their perceived superiority over Severus.

I may be remembering incorrectly, but I think the only times we actually see conflicts between Severus and the Marauders are on the train and SWM. (We don't actually get to see the werewolf episode do we?) The first scene shows Severus "winning" over the Marauders (Lily chooses him). The second shows the break where Lily is separated from Severus and the Marauders 'win."

Once Lily had chosen James, there was no room in her life for Severus. I don't think it mattered what Severus did or didn't do. It's much easier to dump someone when you can justify to yourself that they deserve it.

Fostwolf

I always figured that Lily left the compartment with Severus in tow becuse she was playing hard to get and it wouldn't have had the same effect if she had left alone. In other words she was already using other people to draw attention to herself. I think it also made her feel like such-a-much to have a boy lay outside her dorm room to beg her forgiveness and turn him down. Sort of "Look at me, so many boys want me that I can toss them away any time I feel like it for the smallest reason".

MinervasCat

Totally agree with both of the previous posts.

For someone who JKR has characters say so many nice things about later on, she seems to take pains to show us the negative side of Lily where Severus is involved. Wonder if that was an accident or if she meant to write Lily in such a negative light where Sev is concerned?

Throughout the books we see how quickly Harry, Hermione, and Ron come to one another's aid. That's the way a true "best friend" act. Hermione would have NEVER sat there that long and let Draco torture Ron like that...no would she have had to fight back a smile.

Silver Ink Pot

Great points, folks!

Yeah, about SWM: Why DID Lily let it go on so long?

She asked James, "What did he ever do to you?" and James answers that it's "Just because he exists, if you know what I mean."

The real question is, what did Snape ever do to Lily to make her want to see him tortured? Why did she leave him hanging out to dry so long in that scene, if she was so good at charms and apparently James/Sirius were somewhat afraid of her magical skill?

It's quite true that Hermione or Harry would never have let be at the mercy of a bully that long. I don't get it ...

Fostwolf

IMHO Lily wanted to be in the "cool" crowd. She wouldn't want to duel with the Maruders because #1 it wouldn't have been cool and #2 at 4 to 1 odds she might have been along side Severus with her skirt around her head. I think the Maruders (with the possable exception of James) would have thought that very funny. Besides back then girls didn't often interfear in fights between boys, they mostly just yelled from the sidelines. Same thing the other way around.

MinervasCat

Having survived the "pre-feminist" era pretty much in tact myself, I'd say that it wasn't Lily's fear of interfering because she was a girl...she'd already done that when she led Severus by the hand out of the train compartment. IMO, she had a thing for James and didn't want to interfere until it got so bad that she pretty much couldn't soothe her own conscience about her friend's plight.

Just the statement, "Becuase he exists, if you know what I mean," should have gotten James a couple of hexes that might have sent him to Madam Pomphrey, if he could walk that far. But, I agree that Lily didn't want to offend James because she "fancied" him too. I'm not sure why JKR wrote the timeline with them not starting to date until their seventh year. Maybe Lily just enjoyed having him dangling like another charm on a bracelet. Or, maybe he was so involved with his buddies he didn't have time for her. Since he and Sirius were practically joined at the hip, I'd say Sirius' would have known if James sneezed. So, he's probably a reliable source for the timeline. It just seems so odd that they wouldn't have picked up right at the beginning of their 6th year.

I know this has nothing to do with Lily, but, I wonder what Lupin did during school breaks? Did he miss having his "friends" to run through the countryside with. I'm sure when he was home he was watched a bit more closely during the full moon than he was at Hogwarts (where adult supervision seemed to be at a minimum, to say the least.)

fifthoffive

Quote from: Silver Ink Pot on Yesterday at 10:24:31 PM
She asked James, "What did he ever do to you?" and James answers that it's "Just because he exists, if you know what I mean."

James's comment is so cruel. It says a lot that Lily didn't recognize that.

Of course, I think she hung around Severus just because he existed. If he had been just a boy, not a wizard, she probably would have treated him the same way Petunia did. In a world full of wizards, Severus's existence wasn't so remarkable to her.

(Post a new comment)

	grrliz 2011-04-02 02:39 pm UTC (link)
	CANADA DOES NOT WANT SNAPE, TYVM. (Reply to this)(Thread)

	sepiamagpie 2011-04-02 04:22 pm UTC (link)
	I don't know. Let the weather and the moose sort him out. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	quantumreality 2011-04-02 07:05 pm UTC (link)
	I'd prefer it if he kind of took a wrong turn and ended up in Tuktoyaktuk. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	frequentmouse 2011-04-06 09:44 pm UTC (link)
	Where Benton Fraser will take him on as a project, and either turn him into a good citizen or drive him screaming out onto the ice in January? (Reply to this)(Parent)

	phosfate 2011-04-03 05:36 am UTC (link)
	He's too proud to buy a map or compass. They'll find him dead in an abandoned bus within a month. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	[obligatory] mcity 2011-04-03 12:46 pm UTC (link)
	Mind you, moose bites can be quite nasty. [/obligatory] (Reply to this)(Parent)

sandyclaws68
2011-04-02 03:40 pm UTC (link)

You often feel guilty in your relationship and are always looking to repair the “damage.”
It's not abuse if one genuinely SHOULD feel guilty and if the "damage" was, in fact, inflicted by that same person. Snape called Lily a Mudblood, therefore he inflicted the damage and DAMN RIGHT he should feel guilty.

I tell you, there's hypocrisy all over that thread, but it sure as hell isn't coming from a fictional character who's initials happen to be L.E.

(Reply to this)

	the__ivorytower 2011-04-02 05:34 pm UTC (link)
	And again, I sit here and wonder and ask 'did we read the same books'? (Reply to this)(Thread)

	cmdr_zoom 2011-04-02 05:46 pm UTC (link)
	Yes, but yours didn't come with the plastic overlays and cut-out sheets representing their Issues. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	quantumreality 2011-04-02 07:06 pm UTC (link)
	Tellllll me about it. The really bizarre parts are when they quote straight from the canon material, but then go on some completely wild tangent in their interpretation of it that leaves one staring in incomprehension. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	mirhanda 2011-04-02 08:31 pm UTC (link)
	Seriously! I find myself reading this with my mouth hanging open, just gaping in horror. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	agent_hyatt 2011-04-02 10:12 pm UTC (link)
	At first, yes. But I'm assuming you didn't send yours into an echo chamber of pretentious Snape-slanted "literary analysis". (Reply to this)(Parent)

	rosehiptea 2011-04-02 06:37 pm UTC (link)
	Lily the harping shrew and Snape the victim of an abusive relationship with her? Sometimes it just seems like these people can not be for real. (Reply to this)

	ekaterinv 2011-04-02 09:58 pm UTC (link)
	I think she hung around Severus just because he existed How dare Lily want to hang around real people instead of imaginary ones! (Reply to this)(Thread)

	chikane 2011-04-02 11:45 pm UTC (link)
	Stop mocking imaginary people. They have feelings too! ...I imagine they do, I mean. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	evilsqueakers 2011-04-03 03:03 am UTC (link)
	And in the case of my former imaginary friend, can shapeshift and have families. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	phosfate 2011-04-03 05:36 am UTC (link)
	I'm sorry you and your imaginary friend had a falling out. :( (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	evilsqueakers 2011-04-03 07:29 am UTC (link)
	No falling out. I flat out killed her and her husband. Grew bored, you know. But shapeshifting chickens can be so difficult to housetrain. Especially when they turn into an elephant. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	chikane 2011-04-03 07:41 am UTC (link)
	You sure it was an ordinary chicken imaginary friend, and not evil manifest? (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	evilsqueakers 2011-04-03 07:55 am UTC (link)
	Oh, it was definitely an ordinary one. She enjoyed ordinary things. Too bad about crossing that road, though. But! Three of her five million or so kids lived. And disappeared. Nothing untoward there. Of course, her husband was named Doolywhacker. So make of that what you will. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	xturtle 2011-04-04 10:05 pm UTC (link)
	I kind of love you. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	evilsqueakers 2011-04-04 10:11 pm UTC (link)
	Aw, I'm loved. Yay! The scariest part of this? I was TWO when she appeared. And she stayed for 4 years. Clearly I was meant to be demented. (Reply to this)(Parent)

warchio
2011-04-02 11:42 pm UTC (link)

OK, the whole Lily trying not to smile thing? That always bugs me, it's a memory. Memories are objective. Snape was feeling exposed and vulnerable and thinking the worst. Lily could have been smirking or so angry her lip was twitching or trying not to burp and spoil the stern effect she was going for. Also, the only reason SNAPE had any interest in Lily was because she was a witch. *mutter, mutter* The crazy is catching isn't it?

(Reply to this)(Thread)

	the__ivorytower 2011-04-03 12:45 am UTC (link)
	I have laughed in horror at things. Brain does not compute, must either laugh or cry. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	snarkhunter 2011-04-04 02:42 pm UTC (link)
	And no matter how hideous it is to admit it to yourself (let alone others), there's also sometimes a desperate desire to laugh at the ridiculous...even if that ridiculousness is your best friend dangling upside down in mid-air. So her lips twitched. She tried to stop them, and she clearly meant it. Until he called her the filthiest name they know. (Reply to this)(Parent)

sailorlum
2011-04-03 12:54 am UTC (link)

Way to continue to miss the point of SWM (and other things), bonehead Snapefen. -_-

She asked James, "What did he ever do to you?" and James answers that it's "Just because he exists, if you know what I mean."

James's comment is so cruel. It says a lot that Lily didn't recognize that.

Lily ripped James a new one! What book were you reading?!

From SWM:

'Well,' said James, appearing to deliberate the point, 'it's more the fact that he exists, if you know what I mean . . .'

Many of the surrounding students laughed, Sirius and Wormtail included, but Lupin, still apparently intent on his book, didn't, and nor did Lily.

'You think you're funny,' she said coldly. 'But you're just an arrogant, bullying toerag, Potter. Leave him alone.'

Lily immediately rips James for his asshole statement about Snape.

I always figured that Lily left the compartment with Severus in tow becuse she was playing hard to get and it wouldn't have had the same effect if she had left alone.

Are you out of your freakin' mind! It's really warped that this is the first thing you assume about Lily. She showed zero interest in James on the train, and didn't even look his way until James and Sirius started insulting Snape and then she was pissed at them because they were insulting her best friend! There are zero hints that 11 yr old Lily gave two shits about James, and yet you assume that she was "playing hard to get". (Ugh, and it's really creepy when rejection is assumed to be "playing hard to get", to be going on with.)

Just when I think this group of Snapefen can't get any more twisted, they somehow find a new low.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

	cmdr_zoom 2011-04-03 01:40 am UTC (link)
	Thank you. There is reality (or fictional canon, anyway), and then there are Snapefen. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	maverickz3r0 2011-04-03 04:37 am UTC (link)
	IIRC, going through Snape's memories in book 7 blatantly explains that Lily despised James for the entire time she was friends with Snape, and probably some time after that. I have no idea how anyone can read that chapter and not get that. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	snarkhunter 2011-04-04 02:44 pm UTC (link)
	Well, if you start from a position of "all fictional women are evil castrating bitchwhoremonsters," then it becomes shockingly easy, I suppose. (Reply to this)(Parent)

abharding
2011-04-03 04:03 am UTC (link)

I agree that a woman can be an abuser. This would be particularly true in a Wizarding World where physical strength would not be as much as an advantage has it is in the Muggle world. But that is not case here. Lily was not the abuser in their relationship.(Said relationship being a friendship)

Snape having to watch his words so he would not use a racial slur around Lily means that Lily is a troubling sign, but more because it shows what Snape thinks of Lily. The fact that she is not happy that he is palling around with other racists does NOT means she is controlling who he sees. A friend can be worried about who her friends hang out if she things said friends are a destructive influence and not have it be abuse. How can.... I was going to say "How can they not understand that?" but then I realized they really, really work at it.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

	cmdr_zoom 2011-04-03 06:11 am UTC (link)
	but Snapey's not a racist! He's not he's not he's not! (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	full_metal_ox 2011-04-05 12:29 am UTC (link)
	Why, one of his best friends was a Mu...ggleborn! (Reply to this)(Parent)

	abharding 2011-04-06 03:01 pm UTC (link)
	Well to be fair, by the time of the books I don't think he was. He was many things, but racist was not one of them. As a child then teenager (before Lily's death and therefore when she knew him) however.... (Reply to this)(Parent)

snarkhunter
2011-04-04 02:46 pm UTC (link)

Yes, and the HP canon clearly agrees that women can be abusers. See: Petunia Dursley (neglectful, emotionally abusive), Dolores Umbridge (physically abusive), Bellatrix Lestrange (um...how long do you have?), Merope Gaunt...plenty of abusive women.

Lily Evans Potter isn't one of them. These particular Snapefen scare me SO much. If this is how they read the books, how do they see the world?

(Reply to this)(Parent)

maverickz3r0
2011-04-03 04:30 am UTC (link)

Err...did we read the same books?

1) Lily hated James for at least the first five years they knew each other. A large part of this (it's strongly implied) was due to his treatment of Snape. In fact, the canon goes to great lengths to point this out, because Harry gets a little queasy about it, dwells on it, and even floos Sirius and Remus about it.

2) She didn't let it go on long, she just got there. She was somewhere else, and then she was there, and stopped them. (You can't take Remus to task for being a Prefect and not stopping them, either, those were his only friends and they accepted him despite knowing he was a werewolf. Leave poor Remus alone, he never wanted to hurt anyone.)

3) Have you met any eleven year olds? They aren't exactly the most emotionally conscious people. Of course Lily was concerned with her own issues. She was a preteen.

4) Lily was quite a good friend, even by what evidence we have. She was concerned that Snape was hanging around with obvious future Death Eaters. She didn't want him to become one, so she tried to appeal to him and point out that it was obvious they were bad. Young Lily sure seemed to hate bullies an awful lot--James and Sirius included.

5) Also from all accounts, Snape was a piece of work as a teenager, too. Even taking Remus's and Sirius's explanations with a grain of salt ["He knew more Dark curses when he came into school than half the Seventh year."] there's got to be something to base it on--plus he tried to give as good as he got, it's just that James had backup (Sirius) and Snape didn't. If he had, it would've been more like Draco/Crabbe/Goyle versus Harry/Ron/Hermione--less bullying and more rivalry.

...Wait, I'm using Earth Logic, aren't I. Those people don't speak this language.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

	sandglass 2011-04-04 12:32 am UTC (link)
	And on five, he did come up with the cut-your-chest-open curse sometime before he graduated. A piece of work no kidding. If Snape had back up I think he'd have been a good bit worse than Draco, who was mostly just pathetic IIRC. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	meadowphoenix 2011-04-04 01:46 am UTC (link)
	I agree with everything except for what you said about Remus. Saying that you can't fault Remus because they were his only friends has really unfortunate implications, namely how far is that loyalty supposed to go. Remus was being a coward, but he was being understandably cowardly. It's not easy to stand up to your friends. Which is why Neville is awesome. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

maverickz3r0
2011-04-04 04:21 am UTC (link)

I have a soft spot for Remus that makes me say things like that.

Whenever I read that scene, I feel like Lily should say something to him (they're fellow Prefects after all) because he might need that help to stand up to James and Sirius, but I don't blame him for not doing so without further motivation. Drawing the Neville parallel helps though, since Neville and Remus seem to occupy similar roles in the groups respectively. I think it would be more accurate for me to say I do not expect it of him, and don't really blame him for trying to ignore it--I certainly don't think it was right, but I get it.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	meadowphoenix 2011-04-04 05:44 pm UTC (link)
	It's certainly not something to condemn him for. I think I would have more of a problem with it if he had been the only one in the vicinity to stop it and he did nothing and Snape was less of a toerag. I think I see it as more as Remus's only character flaw, though. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	phosfate 2011-04-03 05:41 am UTC (link)
	Maybe Lily just enjoyed having him dangling like another charm on a bracelet. BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT WOMEN DO! (Reply to this)

	jupiterpluvius 2011-04-04 03:42 am UTC (link)
	DAMN THAT LILY FOR NOT BEING STALKED PROPERLY! (Reply to this)

warrioreowyn
2011-04-04 08:24 am UTC (link)

Yes, somewhere in rural Canada, where there aren't any people around for miles and miles and he can mix potions and send red, purple, or acid green clouds rising into the air without being bothered. I think he'd be happy just being away from it all...including Lily the harping shrew. In each of the memories we see her in she is ragging on him about something. I wonder: is that really the way he remembered her? I know he loved her very, very much, but, we don't see any really happy memories that aren't ruined by her storming off in a snit about something or just giving him what-for over and over.

Missing the point much? All of the memories Snape chose to reveal involved him being in love with Lily and losing her because of her own actions. So of course we're seeing the times when she's unhappy with him - it shows the progression not only of how they became friends, but how they stopped being them (because Snape was first hanging out with, and then joining, Death Eaters).

But then, you can't expect the Snapephiles to be sensible, particularly their insistence that a scene where Lily yells at and threatens to attack James, in defence of Snape, is in fact her 'abandoning' him.

(Reply to this)

	hydriotaphia 2011-04-04 03:53 pm UTC (link)
	There are fourteen pages of this. Fourteen! Does the circlejerk of stupidity never end? (Reply to this)

lissibith
2011-04-05 03:43 pm UTC (link)

Throughout the books we see how quickly Harry, Hermione, and Ron come to one another's aid. That's the way a true "best friend" act. Hermione would have NEVER sat there that long and let Draco torture Ron like that...no would she have had to fight back a smile.

Very true. However, if Ron was dropping casual racism all over their friendship, or if Harry decided to get all sexist on their friendship, I think eventually they would (rightly) have been given the heave-ho. I mean, isn't a really, really basic part of friendship respecting the humanity and dignity of the other person? Something Snape repeatedly (to his eventual regret) failed to do with Lily?

(Reply to this)(Thread)

	ekaterinv 2011-04-05 09:23 pm UTC (link)
	Hermione would have NEVER sat there that long and let Draco torture Ron like that Considering Snape had already allied himself with people who were even worse than Draco, this analogy doesn't work anyway. I can't see Hermione being friends with someone like Snape, ever. (Reply to this)(Parent)

abharding
2011-04-06 03:27 pm UTC (link)

It's thing like this that make me think of them as a group with the emotional development of group of five year olds - and immature five years at that. I say five because five year old want everything to be fair and for them fair often mean equal or identical. They don't seem to understand that you can't really compare Lily and Snape to Ron and Hermione (and it is telling used Ron - the one Hermione ends up in a romantic relationship).

For all of the problems that Ron and Hermione had Ron NEVER ONCE did anything to make Hermione feel that he thought she was somehow worth less then he was because of who her parents. Her birth never was a issue between the two of them. (Even when Ron didn't like Hermione it was because she was a stuck-up know-it-all, not because she was a Muggle).

They don't seem to get that friendship is a TWO-WAY street. They keep talking about Lily should be understanding about being called a racial slur, but ignore that Snape should have NEVER uttered said slur.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	full_metal_ox 2011-04-07 01:14 am UTC (link)
	The emotional development of five-year-olds and the raging libidos of (a lot of) fourteen-year-olds--with the conviction that said libidos constitute an infallible moral compass. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	jimmyray6 2011-12-02 11:12 am UTC (link)
	The companies, providing telecommunications, strive to reach perfection in their offered services. To do this, progress and development is essential every day. New cutting edge technology hits the market every day. It is really easy being a part of this, a part of the future. ___ Cheap calls \|\| call Nepal \|\| call Hong Kong (Reply to this)