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The Mad Bishounen ([info]jkefka) wrote in [info]unfunnybusiness,
@ 2009-06-29 17:16:00


Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
Warnings Wank 2: Electric Clusterfuck
This shit be ugly y'all.

Following the previous 1000 comment unfunnybusiness post there have been some further entries to the fail-lympics, and to make things slightly easier and spare [info]doriangray's inbox I'm making a new post.


First, an update that didn't make it into the original post: [info]wistfuljane posts an open letter to zvi, thanks to [info]ingrid for linking it. There is, naturally, more wank in the comments.

Now for some new stuff. From [info]wank_report, the mousies found a couple of new posts on the issue, each one with its own wank. The first definitely has more than the second, starting with a lovely quote in the post:

"2. If you're that mentally and emotionally fragile, you probably shouldn't be reading fic at all. Or watching television. Or reading regular novels. And for god's sake, you'd better get off the internet right now."

That turns into a nice little teal deer wankfest in the comments.

There is some voice of reason in both posts. It is far too dilute to be of any good.

Finally, we have an added enormous clusterfuck inside the house. [info]esorlehcar and [info]oulangi get into a monstrously ugly fight in the comments of the first post. I don't even know, kids, I really don't.


And that's the ugliness. Anyone else has major developments they want to link put 'em in the comments, I'll try to keep up but I make no guarantees.

ETA 1: [info]agent_hyatt reports further wank inside the house. On a completely ADD note, I really need to figure out if I can do that Il Pallazzo cosplay.....

ETA 2: [info]caoilainn drops us a couple more links with plenty of wank to go around. Enormous clusterfuck is ENORMOUS.

ETA 3: More from inside the house, courtesy of [info]miss_padfoot. Here it's [info]misswindy talking about potential connections with racefail and setting off another hoard of teal deer.

ETA 4: A couple fresh links for you courtesy of [info]kelmendi and [info]esclaramonde! Aukestrel puts up an apology/flounce and zvi puts up what I might even call a genuine apology.

ETA 5: [info]sparklepuss brings us one more passenger on the failboat. ETA 5.5: And another.



Page 1 of 2
<<[1] [2] >>

(Post a new comment)


[info]agent_hyatt
2009-06-29 10:53 pm UTC (link)
We've also got someone coming in and condescending to us about how we're being unreasonable and hypocritical, followed by debunking smackdown. I'm trying to figure out if I'm imagining the "emotionally traumatized people are not/should not act like/should not be treated as adults" vibe from the comment.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]kelmendi, 2009-06-29 11:39 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]agent_hyatt, 2009-06-30 01:00 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]oodlesoquim, 2009-06-29 11:51 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]faultypremise, 2009-06-30 12:52 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]agent_hyatt, 2009-06-30 01:01 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]faultypremise, 2009-06-30 01:04 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]lilpocketnin, 2009-06-30 01:46 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]agent_hyatt, 2009-06-30 06:20 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]adevyish, 2009-06-30 07:14 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]fools_game, 2009-06-30 02:22 pm UTC
... - [info]frequentmouse, 2009-06-30 05:56 pm UTC
... - [info]fools_game, 2009-07-01 06:18 am UTC
... - [info]frequentmouse, 2009-07-01 07:13 pm UTC
... - [info]adevyish, 2009-07-01 05:40 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]felinephoenix, 2009-06-30 01:31 am UTC

[info]frequentmouse
2009-06-29 11:02 pm UTC (link)
The comments thread in Ivorygates remarkably offensive post is sort of a microcosm of what's wrong with the whole discussion: she takes an extreme position, people on her friendslist either agree or do not comment,and then it's posted to [info]metafandom and there is a flood of posts in disagreement, hitting a thread with the rhetorical barricades in place and allies gathered.

I'm also sort of boggled that anyone thinks the statement "if you're that fragile you shouldn't {partake of pop culture}" is in any way defensible.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]lab, 2009-06-29 11:25 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dodge_and_weave, 2009-06-30 02:09 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]frequentmouse, 2009-06-30 06:31 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]esorlehcar, 2009-06-30 06:41 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]frequentmouse, 2009-06-30 06:48 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]eilan, 2009-07-01 09:16 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]dodge_and_weave, 2009-07-02 04:10 am UTC

[info]lil_miss_stfu
2009-06-29 11:27 pm UTC (link)
I just love how [info]ivorygates pretty much says that the emotionally fragile shouldn't do anything other than possibly stare at a blank wall - then says in the comments that she 'OMG didn't say that!!1!'

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]oodlesoquim, 2009-06-29 11:51 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sandglass, 2009-06-30 04:27 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]phosfate, 2009-06-30 05:40 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]apoplexia, 2009-06-30 07:56 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]libelle, 2009-06-30 09:33 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sockpuppeteer, 2009-07-01 01:18 pm UTC

[info]oodlesoquim
2009-06-29 11:49 pm UTC (link)
Wow. So Ivory Gates just basically invoked Paschal talking about the ways in which men do evil against people who just wish that writers warned for triggering content.

Nice to see she believes in overkill as well as being an insensitive jerk.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]ecchaniz0r, 2009-06-30 12:10 am UTC

[info]caoilainn
2009-06-30 12:54 am UTC (link)
[info]trigger_fence has been on the outskirts of this wank since shortly after [info]impertinence made her post. The person or persons behind this journal appear to be making a good effort to try to provide a resource for both readers and writers and has gone through some effort to try to understand both sides of the issue.

Their latest post was metafandomed and some ugly, hurtful stuff is building in the comments. Lots of angry anons and I have now seen for the first time that people asking for trigger warnings are using emotional blackmail and that is the tool of an abuser:

And yet I, with a minimal amount of effort have managed to find several people talking about how the emotional blackmail being used here is very upsetting to them. Clue-by-four since you apparently need one: emotional blackmail is often a tool used by an abuser.

The way that this has blown up is absolutely astounding to me. ASTOUNDING.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]agent_hyatt, 2009-06-30 01:25 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]caoilainn, 2009-06-30 02:41 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]esorlehcar, 2009-06-30 01:31 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]felinephoenix, 2009-06-30 01:44 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]angstymcgoth, 2009-06-30 02:43 am UTC
(no subject) - tree, 2009-06-30 06:50 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]dana, 2009-06-30 06:55 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]angstymcgoth, 2009-06-30 07:18 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]alya1989262, 2009-06-30 08:29 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]felinephoenix, 2009-06-30 09:19 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]caoilainn, 2009-06-30 04:44 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]octavia, 2009-07-02 09:23 am UTC

[info]faultypremise
2009-06-30 12:59 am UTC (link)
You know what gets me? Is how this has all been blown so out of proportion with so many posts all over the places, that everyone has lost sight of the original argument.

-All anyone has ever requested is a tiny blurb about a common trigger (rape or excessive violence, for example).
-I doubt highly that anyone else in a trigger situation (having experienced sexual assault and/or violence) would demand that EVERYTHING possibly trigger worthy be put in as a warning. And if anyone is, they are being unreasonable, it's impossible to do that.
-However, I have yet to see it. I see people assuming that's what is meant, but I have yet to actually see it being requested by any large enough body of people to make it a worrisome trend.

I have seen people with triggers being attacked for the above straw man arguments and logical fallacies. And yes, returning fire with some gross exaggerations themselves. Nature of the beast, when backed into the proverbial corner.

And I have yet to get an answer from one of these people that isn't long and convoluted and full of excuses.

Someone please tell me, why is typing up five to ten words at the start of a story to warn people there is graphic content a bad thing?

That's all I want to know. Nothing else.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]caoilainn, 2009-06-30 01:11 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]jkefka, 2009-06-30 01:17 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]pyratejenni, 2009-06-30 01:19 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]esorlehcar, 2009-06-30 01:41 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]pyratejenni, 2009-06-30 02:43 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]xero_sky, 2009-06-30 03:02 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]esorlehcar, 2009-06-30 03:14 am UTC
... - [info]xero_sky, 2009-06-30 06:20 am UTC
... - [info]esorlehcar, 2009-06-30 06:30 am UTC
... - [info]xero_sky, 2009-06-30 08:09 am UTC
... - [info]esorlehcar, 2009-06-30 03:48 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]faultypremise, 2009-06-30 05:11 am UTC
... - [info]xero_sky, 2009-06-30 06:43 am UTC
... - [info]faultypremise, 2009-06-30 01:18 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]esorlehcar, 2009-06-30 03:21 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]pyratejenni, 2009-06-30 01:56 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sandglass, 2009-06-30 04:12 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]oodlesoquim, 2009-06-30 06:29 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]faultypremise, 2009-06-30 05:13 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]witty, 2009-06-30 02:08 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]frequentmouse, 2009-06-30 03:07 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]evilsqueakers, 2009-06-30 05:30 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]phosfate, 2009-06-30 05:47 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]frequentmouse, 2009-06-30 06:13 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]tintin, 2009-06-30 06:36 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]khym_chanur, 2009-06-30 07:39 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]irradiated, 2009-06-30 08:01 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]witty, 2009-06-30 01:18 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]amadi, 2009-07-02 02:31 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kijikun, 2009-06-30 05:47 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kookaburra, 2009-06-30 06:27 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]witty, 2009-06-30 01:29 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]kookaburra, 2009-06-30 04:31 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]eleutheria, 2009-07-01 12:28 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sandglass, 2009-07-02 07:08 am UTC
this is really long, sorry - [info]oodlesoquim, 2009-06-30 06:52 am UTC
Re: this is really long, sorry - [info]lady_ganesh, 2009-06-30 12:57 pm UTC
Re: this is really long, sorry - [info]oodlesoquim, 2009-06-30 01:46 pm UTC
Re: this is really long, sorry - [info]lady_ganesh, 2009-06-30 01:52 pm UTC
... - [info]oodlesoquim, 2009-06-30 06:58 pm UTC
... - [info]eleutheria, 2009-07-01 12:30 am UTC
... - [info]lady_ganesh, 2009-07-01 01:04 am UTC
... - [info]lady_ganesh, 2009-07-01 01:04 am UTC
Re: this is really long, sorry - [info]witty, 2009-06-30 01:58 pm UTC
Re: this is really long, sorry - [info]lady_ganesh, 2009-06-30 02:07 pm UTC
... - [info]witty, 2009-06-30 02:26 pm UTC
... - [info]lady_ganesh, 2009-06-30 02:33 pm UTC
Re: this is really long, sorry - [info]oodlesoquim, 2009-06-30 07:01 pm UTC
Re: this is really long, sorry - [info]agilebrit, 2009-06-30 09:49 pm UTC
Re: this is really long, sorry - [info]amadi, 2009-07-02 02:47 am UTC
(no subject) - tree, 2009-06-30 07:07 am UTC
long part 2 - [info]oodlesoquim, 2009-06-30 07:07 am UTC
Re: long part 2 - [info]witty, 2009-06-30 02:21 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]alya1989262, 2009-06-30 08:52 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]eleutheria, 2009-06-30 12:10 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lady_ganesh, 2009-06-30 03:14 pm UTC
... - [info]re_weird, 2009-06-30 09:42 pm UTC
... - [info]lady_ganesh, 2009-07-01 01:02 am UTC
... - [info]re_weird, 2009-07-01 07:42 am UTC
... - [info]eleutheria, 2009-07-01 12:32 am UTC
... - [info]lady_ganesh, 2009-07-01 01:04 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]witty, 2009-06-30 02:05 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]esclaramonde, 2009-06-30 03:22 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lady_ganesh, 2009-06-30 05:40 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]esorlehcar, 2009-06-30 03:51 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]alya1989262, 2009-06-30 04:16 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]kookaburra, 2009-06-30 04:53 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]esclaramonde, 2009-06-30 03:20 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]melannen, 2009-06-30 03:09 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]faultypremise, 2009-06-30 04:31 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]idlerat, 2009-06-30 05:25 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]melannen, 2009-06-30 05:50 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]arionhunter, 2009-06-30 06:27 am UTC
... - [info]solesakuma, 2009-06-30 09:54 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]khym_chanur, 2009-06-30 07:47 am UTC
... - [info]the_con_cept, 2009-06-30 04:33 pm UTC
... - [info]lady_ganesh, 2009-06-30 06:33 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lady_ganesh, 2009-06-30 03:13 pm UTC
... - [info]witty, 2009-06-30 07:39 pm UTC
... - [info]snarkhunter, 2009-07-01 04:23 pm UTC
... - [info]lady_ganesh, 2009-07-01 04:48 pm UTC
... - [info]snarkhunter, 2009-07-01 07:14 pm UTC
... - [info]lady_ganesh, 2009-07-01 07:22 pm UTC
... - [info]snarkhunter, 2009-07-01 07:32 pm UTC
... - [info]snarkhunter, 2009-07-01 07:41 pm UTC
... - [info]snarkhunter, 2009-07-01 07:27 pm UTC
... - [info]lady_ganesh, 2009-07-01 10:40 pm UTC
... - [info]snarkhunter, 2009-07-02 01:05 am UTC
... - [info]lady_ganesh, 2009-07-02 01:53 am UTC
... - [info]agent_hyatt, 2009-07-02 07:18 pm UTC
... - [info]lady_ganesh, 2009-07-02 07:21 pm UTC
... - [info]dodge_and_weave, 2009-07-01 05:02 pm UTC
... - [info]snarkhunter, 2009-07-01 07:29 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]glossing2, 2009-06-30 03:35 pm UTC

[info]ereshkigal
2009-06-30 01:34 am UTC (link)
What gets me is that we've seen all of these arguments before. Literally. They just had a different subject then.

(Reply to this)


[info]cirisse
2009-06-30 01:45 am UTC (link)
"2. If you're that mentally and emotionally fragile, you probably shouldn't be reading fic at all. Or watching television. Or reading regular novels. And for god's sake, you'd better get off the internet right now."

When I first read this quote on metafandom I couldn't stop crying - it was just so insensitive. I mean, really???
(Proof of my mental and emotional fragility? Y/Y)

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]rosehiptea, 2009-06-30 03:13 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sisterelwood, 2009-06-30 08:15 am UTC

[info]caito
2009-06-30 02:27 am UTC (link)
So [info]cruiscin_lan's post has gratuitous cussing, and I have RevoLucian's Bale Out stuck in my head.

So this happened.

(Christian Bale is [info]ivorygates, pro-warnings fandom is the lights guy, and [info]cruiscin_lan is Barbra Streisand.)

"Warn Out"
You want me to put warnings on my fics?
You want me to fucking warn them?

Fuck! What the fuck is it with you?
I was checking for triggers
Fuck! What the fuck is it with you?
I was checking for triggers
Fuck! What the fuck is it with you?
I was checking for triggers
Fuck! What the fuck is it with you?
I was checking for triggers

You're so fucking fragile
SPEHHHSHUL
You're so fucking fragile
SPEHHHSHUL
You're so fucking fragile
SPEHHHSHUL
You're so fucking fragile
SPEHHHSHUL

no won't warn
no won't warn
no won't warn
no won't warn
no won't warn
no won't warn
no won't warn
no won't warn
no won't

What don't you fuckin' understand?
I won't fuckin' warn my fuckin' fics
What don't you fuckin' understand?
I won't fuckin' warn my fuckin' fics
What don't you fuckin' understand?
I won't fuckin' warn my fuckin' fics
What don't you fuckin' understand?
I won't fuckin' warn my fuckin' fics

Think for one fucking second
"Proper" warnings can shut the fuck up
Think for one fucking second
"Proper" warnings can shut the fuck up
Think for one fucking second
"Proper" warnings can shut the fuck up
Think for one fucking second-second-second

What don't you fuckin' understand?
I won't fuckin' warn my fuckin' fics
What don't you fuckin' understand?
I won't fuckin' warn my fuckin' fics
What don't you fuckin' understand?
I won't fuckin' warn my fuckin' fics
What don't you fuckin' understand?
I'm not gonna fuckin' warn them!

Shut the fuck up
Shut the fuck up
It's just motherfucking courteous
You are harshin' my squee
Shut the fuck up, would you?
Shut the fuck up
It's just motherfucking courteous
I ain't writing in fandom if you're still here
Shut the fuck up
Shut the fuck up
It's just motherfucking courteous
I'm fuckin' serious
Shut the fuck up
Shut the fuck up
It's just motherfucking courteous
You are harshing my squee

What don't you fuckin' understand?
What don't you fuckin' understand?
What don't you fuckin' understand?
What don't you fuckin' understand?

What don't you fuckin' understand?
I won't fuckin' warn my fuckin' fics
no won't warn no won't warn
What don't you fuckin' understand?
I won't fuckin' warn my fuckin' fics
no won't warn no won't warn
What don't you fuckin' understand?
I won't fuckin' warn my fuckin' fics
no won't warn no won't warn
What don't you fuckin' understand?
I won't fuckin' warn my fuckin' fics
no won't warn no won't warn

Seriously, man, you and me, we're fuckin' done, fanfictionally. Fucking ass.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]jkefka, 2009-06-30 02:49 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ecchaniz0r, 2009-06-30 03:47 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]felinephoenix, 2009-06-30 09:26 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]lady_ganesh, 2009-06-30 01:48 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]oodlesoquim, 2009-06-30 07:03 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]caito, 2009-06-30 10:17 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]finchbird, 2009-06-30 11:39 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]skypirate, 2009-07-01 11:27 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]coffee_mug, 2009-07-01 06:03 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]nostariel, 2009-07-01 10:32 pm UTC

[info]dana
2009-06-30 03:00 am UTC (link)
Why can't people just follow the rules of their community, seriously, a lot of communities have warning rules - most of the ones I'm on have them.

I notice that people over-warn, I even back a year on one community and saw that people were warning for yaoi, on a yaoi community!

If readers and authors are aware of the rules on the community, everyone should be happy. Or as happy as fandom can possibly be...

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]gmth, 2009-06-30 03:16 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]dana, 2009-06-30 03:22 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]anonyrat, 2009-06-30 02:51 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]goblin, 2009-06-30 11:39 pm UTC
... - [info]sockpuppeteer, 2009-07-01 01:14 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sandglass, 2009-06-30 04:02 am UTC

[info]the__ivorytower
2009-06-30 03:40 am UTC (link)
I finally wound up reading some of those (including the ivorygates post, no relation I promise) and I couldn't lose the D: expression on my face.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]rosehiptea, 2009-06-30 03:54 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]the__ivorytower, 2009-06-30 03:57 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]rosehiptea, 2009-06-30 03:58 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]lady_ganesh, 2009-06-30 01:42 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]re_weird, 2009-06-30 09:57 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dana, 2009-06-30 03:59 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]rosehiptea, 2009-06-30 04:00 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]dana, 2009-06-30 04:02 am UTC
... - [info]caoilainn, 2009-06-30 04:24 am UTC
... - [info]dana, 2009-06-30 04:37 am UTC
... - [info]caoilainn, 2009-06-30 05:06 am UTC
... - [info]dana, 2009-06-30 05:15 am UTC
... - [info]caoilainn, 2009-06-30 05:32 am UTC
... - [info]dana, 2009-06-30 05:41 am UTC
... - [info]caoilainn, 2009-06-30 06:10 am UTC
... - [info]dana, 2009-06-30 06:19 am UTC
... - [info]dana, 2009-06-30 06:20 am UTC
... - [info]caoilainn, 2009-06-30 06:52 am UTC
... - [info]frequentmouse, 2009-06-30 06:19 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]mistal, 2009-06-30 04:50 am UTC
... - [info]alya1989262, 2009-06-30 10:28 am UTC
... - [info]mistal, 2009-06-30 05:48 pm UTC

[info]chaos_penguin
2009-06-30 04:11 am UTC (link)
...and here I always thought that being sure you'd said, loud and clear, "While many of us enjoy reading about this stuff in a fantasy context, I am well aware it would be considered seriously skeezy (at best) in real life" was reason enough to include warnings. I like a little dubcon as much as the next reader, but it's so much easier to relax and enjoy it when you know the author realises they've wandered into less-than-consentual territory. I can't even get my head around the idea of arguing against warning for graphic rape after something as serious as triggering issues has been brought up.

Then again, I'd have dealt with Twilight a lot better with a warning or two plastered across its cover, so what do I know?

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]sandglass, 2009-06-30 04:19 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]dana, 2009-06-30 04:21 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sandglass, 2009-06-30 04:31 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]chaos_penguin, 2009-06-30 04:40 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]dana, 2009-06-30 04:43 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]anonyrat, 2009-06-30 02:56 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]chaos_penguin, 2009-06-30 03:37 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]kookaburra, 2009-06-30 05:14 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]funwithrage, 2009-06-30 08:13 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]chaos_penguin, 2009-07-01 04:43 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]bof, 2009-06-30 08:06 pm UTC

[info]sandglass
2009-06-30 04:18 am UTC (link)
I cannot believe the sheer number of people in this. You'd think more of them would be offput by either the sexism or the ablism but no, there they are, wanking on about how respecting trauma victims meager requests are just too much work, and how they're not bad people if they don't.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]irradiated, 2009-06-30 04:50 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]oodlesoquim, 2009-06-30 07:15 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]eleutheria, 2009-06-30 09:55 am UTC

[info]idlerat
2009-06-30 05:00 am UTC (link)
FWIW, I don't really think the exchange in Wistfuljane's journal, w. Crypto, was wanky. I think she (Jane) was really upset and maybe a little defensive, but I thought everyone there was acting in good faith and being reasonable. I do think it's a little ironic that Crypto weighed in on a post that was obviously more an expression of emotion than anything to talk about journals as boundary-laden...

I also feel a little sorry for Zvi in all this (I know I'm not the only one.) Though I strongly disagree with her, I think some of the things she said have been widely misinterpreted - sometimes rather carelessly so. I don't blame anyone for being angry at her refusal to warn, but I think some of the mockery has been rather unfair.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]caoilainn, 2009-06-30 05:50 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]lady_ganesh, 2009-06-30 07:39 pm UTC

[info]sunhawk
2009-06-30 05:10 am UTC (link)
One of the things I'm baffled by is how some people on the anti-warning side seem to somehow still think that ANYONE is trying to tell them what to write! NO. It's STILL just about putting one sentence in the fic header to give a heads up. Simple and easy and yet some people can't seem to get that!

Also baffled at those who want to have their cake and eat it too: Hey my blog is my safe space where I can say whatever I want and fuck you if you don't like it... and now I'm going to post to fic comms and actively invite strangers to read my blog. Do you want to be able to say whatever you want without reproach or do you want the same attention and publicity as others in fandom who play nicely with others? Can't have it both ways, cupcake!

I feel like some people need a crash course in Rousseau's social contract, for starters, then on to social dynamics and ethics...

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]lady_ganesh, 2009-06-30 12:51 pm UTC

[info]sunhawk
2009-06-30 05:19 am UTC (link)
As a side note, I thought this is as good a place to ask as any, does anyone know a blog entry or website that provides a good definition of triggering as it pertains to reading fics? I am updating my comm rules to emphasize that warnings are now mandatory and I would like to give my members as good explanation why so as to prevent triggering being confused with squicks, which seems to be a persistent problem. Thanks!

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]faultypremise, 2009-06-30 05:22 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sunhawk, 2009-06-30 05:26 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kijikun, 2009-06-30 05:33 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sunhawk, 2009-06-30 05:51 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kijikun, 2009-06-30 06:18 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sunhawk, 2009-06-30 06:28 am UTC
... - [info]kijikun, 2009-06-30 06:38 am UTC
... - [info]sunhawk, 2009-06-30 06:52 am UTC
... - [info]kijikun, 2009-06-30 06:57 am UTC
... - [info]sunhawk, 2009-06-30 07:02 am UTC
... - [info]kijikun, 2009-06-30 07:03 am UTC
... - [info]undomielregina, 2009-06-30 09:04 am UTC
... - [info]lady_ganesh, 2009-06-30 01:42 pm UTC
... - [info]sunhawk, 2009-06-30 05:18 pm UTC
... - [info]undomielregina, 2009-06-30 06:14 pm UTC
... - [info]sunhawk, 2009-06-30 06:47 pm UTC
... - [info]kijikun, 2009-07-01 01:25 am UTC

[info]kijikun
2009-06-30 05:44 am UTC (link)
IMO as a victim: The blacklist is going way to far. I thought the list of people that were not warning was a good idea, but I've heard people are using the list to go to peoples journals and attack them. This has the beginnings of a witch hunt to it and we all are aware that fandom is way to willing to cross the line into RL.

Not everyone has the same trigger. Someone we do not even know what is going to trigger us. I have been triggered by things I would never expect or ask someone to warn for.

Communities should require warnings, and people should be banned if the continually refuse to add warning when a mod asks them. I don't give a shit what they do in their own journal as long as they aren't linking it around. Once they link a fic from their journal someplace then they need to either add warnings or the mods of that community should take appropriate action.

People that refuse to warn after being explained why they should, are assholes. Not inhuman monsters that need to die or be run out of fandom with their head on a pole.

Screaming at people and telling them they are silencing and denying victims while satisfying does not make them understand why they should warn.

People should use common sense when adding warnings and labels.

In other words: Rape, dub-con, child abuse, domestic violence, molestation, suicide, extreme violence, torture, chan. A good rule of thumb is if you'd warn someone about it while recommending a book, movie, tv show, or game, warn or label it. Or ask a mod, beta, or someone they trust and respect.

I've seen it suggested and I agree that for things that are not 'warnings' but kinks that might squick people to use a separate 'label' header for things such as: D/s, spanking, mpreg, genderswap, consensual humiliation, bondage, consensual knife play, role play.

BDSM is a description of a lifestyle that can be used to describe a lot of different things and is not always sexual. Those of us that practice different forms of BDSM, some of us who are victims, do not appreciate our sexual practices being treated as deviant or reminiscent to sexual assault. BDSM is consensual and the person with the real power is the 'sub'. If it is non-consensual it is not BDSM but abuse, non-con, and/or torture.

Personally I think the people that want me to warn for clowns and things like a child sleeping in a bed with her fathers as a bit overboard. I will not warn for kissing, hugging, and hand holding in same sex couples or opposite sex couples. I will not warn for normal parent child interactions. If it is kid!fic, baby!fic, or a fic where you know their is a parent child realtionship - assume there is going to be paternal affection to the child.

And didn't we go through this in 2005?

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]sunhawk, 2009-06-30 05:54 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]faultypremise, 2009-06-30 05:57 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kijikun, 2009-06-30 06:34 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]damnedfallacy, 2009-06-30 04:37 pm UTC
... - [info]the_con_cept, 2009-06-30 06:00 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]esorlehcar, 2009-06-30 06:17 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kijikun, 2009-06-30 06:32 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sunhawk, 2009-06-30 06:44 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kijikun, 2009-06-30 06:48 am UTC
... - [info]sunhawk, 2009-06-30 06:57 am UTC
... - [info]faultypremise, 2009-06-30 01:25 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]esorlehcar, 2009-06-30 06:46 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kijikun, 2009-06-30 06:53 am UTC
... - [info]frequentmouse, 2009-06-30 07:27 am UTC
... - [info]dana, 2009-06-30 07:30 am UTC
... - [info]esorlehcar, 2009-06-30 07:34 am UTC
... - [info]frequentmouse, 2009-06-30 07:58 am UTC
... - [info]lady_ganesh, 2009-06-30 01:40 pm UTC
... - [info]witty, 2009-06-30 02:46 pm UTC
... - [info]rodo, 2009-06-30 04:24 pm UTC
... - [info]frequentmouse, 2009-06-30 05:51 pm UTC
... - [info]rodo, 2009-06-30 06:00 pm UTC
... - [info]frequentmouse, 2009-06-30 06:44 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sandglass, 2009-07-02 07:40 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kijikun, 2009-07-02 07:42 am UTC
Mods/OP may I please delete my original comment? - [info]kijikun, 2009-07-02 07:52 am UTC

[info]arionhunter
2009-06-30 06:31 am UTC (link)
Throughout all of this, I still want to know why Don't Be an Asshole is such a hard thing to grasp.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]sisterelwood, 2009-06-30 07:39 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]arionhunter, 2009-07-01 04:34 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kylenne, 2009-06-30 06:03 pm UTC

[info]miss_padfoot
2009-06-30 07:36 am UTC (link)
You missed some in-house wank! [info]misswindy busts out the grudgewank here and here, accusing zvi/liviapenn/willow of posturing during RaceFail. [info]esorlehcar, [info]willow and others respond.

Reposted for html fail

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]lady_ganesh, 2009-06-30 04:01 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]miss_padfoot, 2009-06-30 05:07 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]esorlehcar, 2009-06-30 05:17 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]kelmendi, 2009-06-30 11:48 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lady_ganesh, 2009-07-01 01:04 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]miss_padfoot, 2009-07-01 09:57 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kelmendi, 2009-07-01 12:57 pm UTC
... - [info]kelmendi, 2009-07-01 02:19 pm UTC
... - [info]aloysius, 2009-07-02 07:35 am UTC
(no subject) - tree, 2009-07-01 06:51 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lady_ganesh, 2009-07-01 06:58 pm UTC
(no subject) - tree, 2009-07-01 07:12 pm UTC
NOW WITH LESS CODING FAIL
[info]sisterelwood
2009-06-30 07:40 am UTC (link)
Wow, I don't hang around [info]unfunnybusiness for a few days and you kids go and FAP FAP FAP. Sweet baby Jesus- everyone looks like an asshat. When I used to write fics I would put warnings on them just out of courtesy but both sides here look equally fuck-witted and completely irrational. A+ JOB EVERYONE! Shesh...

(Reply to this)(Thread)

Re: NOW WITH LESS CODING FAIL - [info]bienegold, 2009-06-30 08:22 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]felinephoenix, 2009-06-30 09:24 am UTC
oh god. why, brain, why? - tree, 2009-06-30 11:27 am UTC
Re: oh god. why, brain, why? - [info]suziecroft, 2009-06-30 06:40 pm UTC
Re: oh god. why, brain, why? - [info]bienegold, 2009-06-30 09:45 pm UTC
Re: oh god. why, brain, why? - [info]rosehiptea, 2009-07-01 04:03 am UTC
Re: oh god. why, brain, why? - [info]sisterelwood, 2009-07-01 04:44 am UTC
Re: oh god. why, brain, why? - ariadne484, 2009-07-01 05:11 pm UTC
... - tree, 2009-07-02 11:38 am UTC

tree
2009-06-30 09:15 am UTC (link)
Off-topic really, but you made me laugh with "show hideous clusterfuck". I love that YouTube Greasemonkey script.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]felinephoenix, 2009-06-30 09:21 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]jkefka, 2009-06-30 03:54 pm UTC

[info]inappropriate
2009-06-30 10:20 am UTC (link)
How in the everloving world did this whole thing blow up so badly? I just don't get what's so hard and oppressive about putting a simple warning on a fic... I mean, someone posted an extremely graphic fanart with no warnings they'd get roasted, toasted, and burnt to a freaking crisp, why are people acting differently about fanfic?

...I dunno, maybe I'm just confused. >:|

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]fools_game, 2009-06-30 12:25 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dodge_and_weave, 2009-06-30 02:34 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lyssa, 2009-07-01 11:40 pm UTC

[info]dodge_and_weave
2009-06-30 02:37 pm UTC (link)
I love how the Dreamwidth theme is something about welcoming everybody, and yet some of the most YOU FAIL posts about people with triggers should avoid all fandom are showing up over there, some by people working on dreamwidth.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]lady_ganesh, 2009-06-30 03:11 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dodge_and_weave, 2009-06-30 06:24 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]rodo, 2009-06-30 04:16 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dodge_and_weave, 2009-06-30 06:28 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]rodo, 2009-06-30 07:00 pm UTC

[info]deadwood
2009-06-30 03:37 pm UTC (link)
I'm not sure if it's because I'm physically tired (I don't think I am, but my eyes feel a bit tired) or because I'm just tired of people being douchebags, but I'm having serious troubles reading anything related to this post. Like, it will not make any sense at all. I try, but I end up having to read every single comment at least twice to get any sense out of it.

I think I'm just going to give up on it. I guess my brain isn't in the mood to deal with it today.

Unfortunately, that means I have to go mow the lawn now.

(Reply to this)


[info]kylenne
2009-06-30 03:55 pm UTC (link)
Good lord, I stepped away from teh intertubes for a few days, and I have never seen so much fail on both sides of a wank before, and I used to be active in FF7 fandom. I've warned from day one and fail to see how offering up a one-sentence remark is "spoiling my fic" or zomg censorship!!111! OTOH, blacklists are insane, and some of the demands I've seen on the part of a small minority of folks on the pro-side just make me roll my eyes. But, and perhaps this is because I myself am a twice survivor of sexual abuse, I'm going to have to come down on the side of empathy and compassion here.

I may actually make a public post on LJ about this, and I almost never do when these things break out. But all I'll say on this subject here is this entire discussion/argument/whatever ITSELF is triggery as fuck, because in these wankers who keep minimizing survivors' pain and telling us to STFU I see every reason why I never came forward about my abuse, and every asshole who tried to say I wasn't "really" raped and that I'm a drama queen and I asked for it and...yeah.

Yeah, I think I'll just be sitting on my hands now.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]esorlehcar, 2009-06-30 04:01 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]kylenne, 2009-06-30 04:12 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]kylenne, 2009-06-30 04:17 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]esorlehcar, 2009-06-30 05:01 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]kylenne, 2009-06-30 05:56 pm UTC
... - [info]esorlehcar, 2009-06-30 06:02 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]minibalrogmum, 2009-06-30 04:24 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]oodlesoquim, 2009-06-30 07:05 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]kylenne, 2009-06-30 07:24 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]oodlesoquim, 2009-06-30 07:29 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]esorlehcar, 2009-06-30 07:40 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]kylenne, 2009-06-30 08:48 pm UTC
... - [info]alya1989262, 2009-07-01 04:25 pm UTC


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