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	dana 2009-08-31 01:52 am UTC (link)
	'general consensus', once again, yeah right! But besides that, he really is missing the point. (I assume it's a he, it is a he, right?). And layout graphic wise, is this site safe for work? No dodgy adverts? (Reply to this)(Thread)

	come_love_sleep 2009-08-31 01:53 am UTC (link)
	I believe so...I use Adblock, but I think Kotaku is safe by nature, and warns for NSFW. Their advertising tends to be about as high-class as you could expect from a well-known gaming site. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	sparkysrevenge 2009-08-31 02:28 am UTC (link)
	...These commenters are REALLY trainwrecky. (Reply to this)

lyssa
2009-08-31 02:45 am UTC (link)

While the essay is good and I like the points, my issue is, is it even possible to portray such a relationship in a game without it boiling down to "doing the right thing at the right time so you get sex" or using predestiny? It's not like even RPG console gamers are playing it to roleplay.

Even if you have more sexually diverse options, even if you make it more complicated (plot point related, don't mess around, affects more gameplay and NPC attitudes, etc), it's not like a tabletop pen and paper or a LARP where both characters are controlled by humans who constantly negotiate the boundaries and complications of the relationship. It's inherently problematic because you're taking a relationship (be it a more serious relationship or just sex for sex's sake) between two humans and making one into computer code. Add in the fact that sex in a mainstream game is so new as to be a shiny new zomg feature, and gaming's not so stellar portrayal of woman as a whole, and it just gets worse.

The comments just make it more painful, as that sort of perspective isn't the sort of one many of them want to hear.

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	kylenne 2009-08-31 02:54 am UTC (link)
	Star Ocean 2 did it rather nicely, I think. That system took into account things like whether or not you paired characters together in combat, healed a person, etc. And sex wasn't the goal, or even romance. Depending on your actions in the course of the game, you got cutscenes that varied based on the affection levels. Expanding the story was the reward. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	the__ivorytower 2009-08-31 03:57 am UTC (link)
	I believe Fire Emblem gives you affection ratings for characters too. You have grades of relationships, and some of them are platonic, others are romantic. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	deliciouschaos 2009-08-31 06:02 am UTC (link)
	They do. You build it up by having the characters fight together. Support gives you fantastic in-battle bonuses and really fun character conversations (most of the time I'm looking at you Radiant Dawn). (Reply to this)(Parent)

	inarticulate 2009-08-31 06:10 am UTC (link)
	There are a few games that I can think of off the top of my head that use the affection points-style system really nicely. The key, for me, is the inclusion of platonic relationships as a valid goal and not just separating them out by "opposite sex = romance, same sex = platonic." (Reply to this)(Parent)

	weaselistic 2009-08-31 01:34 pm UTC (link)
	I liked it in Bahamut Lagoon: no matter what choices you made, you didn't get the girl. Of course, most players are furious about this, even though they don't even LIKE the female character in question. (Reply to this)(Parent)

melannen
2009-08-31 04:57 am UTC (link)

You could presumably do it okay - or at least in a less inherently awful way - by alterating who the player character is, so both partners are played by a human (and get to be the protagonists of the relationship) for equal amounts of time.

I think some of the Japanese rpgs do something like this, though the last computer game I played with a romance in it was King's Quest Seven, so I could be wrong. (Though actually, KQ7 alternated POVs. And had all female player characters, one of whom was middle-aged. So US games were managing better in 1994...)

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	miraba 2009-08-31 05:11 am UTC (link)
	But also remember that a woman was writing the KQ series. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

melannen
2009-08-31 05:21 am UTC (link)

LIES! They were dictated to Roberta (and eluki) from beyond the Other World by Derek Karlavaegen, Daventry's court historian. :P (I don't know whether to despair or rejoice that that I live in a world with a King's Quest wiki.)

I do think that the current male-dominated world of game design (particularly writing) is as much a symptom as a cause, though: the male execs want misogynistic games because they think they sell better, and that toxic cloud drives women out of the industry. Much like the same problem in the American comics industry. Get rid of the horrible atmosphere, and you'll get female developers like *snap*. (And then you might even get female execs!)

(Even Roberta had Peter Spear directing things over her head. She was just lucky enough that he wasn't an utterly misogynistic bastard, and he let her create something good.)

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spacelogic
2009-08-31 06:57 am UTC (link)

Roberta's husband was the company president, though -- she didn't have to knuckle under to any specific pressures from Above. Mind, Sierra had a number of female masterminds behind its most popular series (Quest For Glory, Gabriel Knight), so it wasn't just her.

Fun King's Quest fact your second paragraph tangentially reminded me of: King's Quest IV had the first female lead in any such game ever, was sold to a market that was maybe 10-15% female, and vastly outsold any of its predecessors. This is probably because it was a vastly better game with a new improved engine and shiny graphics (for the time) but it's kind of significant anyway because the idea that misogynistic and/or male-centric games sell better had strong counter-evidence in 1988.

*old-school adventure gamer ends obligatory nostalgia trip*

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	seraangelus 2009-08-31 01:12 pm UTC (link)
	Man I loved the KQ series. Heck, I loved every Sierra adventure game series. is an old-school adventure game player from way back Now I have to get my adventure game fix from small independent companies or non-English ones. (Although the English ports are actually quite good there.) (Reply to this)(Parent)

	darkschneider 2009-08-31 02:47 am UTC (link)
	I loved the comment where they wanted to know why rape was worse than a touch on the arm. And by loved, I mean I want to punch that guy in the face. I'm hoping it's a troll since his user name is Candle Jack, but he actually finishes his sentences, so I can't be sure. (Reply to this)(Thread)

	sarracenia 2009-08-31 03:35 am UTC (link)
	...And someone promoted that comment, which I assume means that more than one asshole on the planet shares that amazing degree of stupidity. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	portkey 2009-08-31 06:29 am UTC (link)
	"Promoting" is as easy as a starred commenter responding to someone. Without bothering to read the comments (I'm a regular Kotaku reader, and I know when to stay away..), it's possible that a starred commenter responded to call him an idiot. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	taterbird 2009-08-31 05:32 am UTC (link)
	Do you think that if we say his name three times, he'll disappear? (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	ayezur 2009-08-31 03:27 pm UTC (link)
	The problem is saying Candle Jack enough times before he takes you aw- (Reply to this)(Parent)

	vejiicakes 2009-08-31 06:26 am UTC (link)
	Is there some way to arrange for him to experience being the recipient of both? Not.. particularly that I wish him ill; just so he can make an educated evaluation of his earlier query himself. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	kylenne 2009-08-31 02:51 am UTC (link)
	There's a freaking amazing smackdown of the misogynists in the comments of the original post. http://www.gamecritics.com/alex-raymond/women-arent-vending-machines-how-video-games-perpetuate-the-commodity-model-of-sex#comment-33902 That guy needs to be cloned immediately. (Reply to this)(Thread)

	plazmah 2009-08-31 05:21 am UTC (link)
	You're right, that's one sweet-ass comment. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	adevyish 2009-08-31 05:31 am UTC (link)
	That's beautiful. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	jun_motomiya17 2009-08-31 06:09 am UTC (link)
	...I think I'm in love. (Reply to this)(Parent)

hallidae
2009-08-31 06:42 am UTC (link)

I really just kinda want to frame this bit and put it on my wall:

If you really want to stick to a lifestyle wherein we treat one sex as less than human and trade their rights for basic commodities then you should probably look into not wearing pants, shitting where you stand, and beating people to death that you don't like. I mean hey, that stuff was done by people before, so why not keep doing it?

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	kylenne 2009-08-31 05:25 pm UTC (link)
	That brought shoujo sparkles to my own eyes, yes. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	bubosquared 2009-08-31 08:05 pm UTC (link)
	I'm rather fond of "cupping the balls of the power structure of the entire western world and all your unaware guy buddies," myself. I may have to steal that, actually. <3 (Reply to this)(Parent)

	sneer 2009-08-31 04:33 pm UTC (link)
	I want to send him every single one of these. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	persona 2009-08-31 08:20 pm UTC (link)
	Aaaahhhh that place has a store near where I live. They always look so delicious. That aside, yes, I think some of those are in order. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	dottiness 2009-08-31 03:13 am UTC (link)
	Hey. Hey guys? This is why girls think you're creeps. Forget about how "all girls like jerks" and "don't know a nice guy when they see one." This is why no one's interested in you specifically. (Reply to this)

	sarracenia 2009-08-31 03:38 am UTC (link)
	This is quite a touching essay. It is a reflection of a woman thought, which is always dynamic. She has the right to think that way and it's perfectly ok. I'm so glad you approve of her poor, feeble woman thought! How very kind of you to not attempt to control the way she thinks, giving her the right not to be overwhelmed by the sheer, dynamic masculinity of your man thought. (Reply to this)

	notjo 2009-08-31 03:46 am UTC (link)
	should stop modeling and don't use their bodies for selling products. Well, that's easy enough. Since not even woman does this, so obviously the wee little troll realizes that women should no longer be portrayed this way, the end. (Reply to this)

	notjo 2009-08-31 03:48 am UTC (link)
	You're more than welcome to join us and spew your thoughtless, fallacy filled, group-think opinions all you like. Yes, because all the guys coming in to say OMG! WIMMIN IS HORS! are all individuals with unique view points. (Reply to this)

ladysphinx
2009-08-31 05:26 am UTC (link)

So if women want to stop being viewed as sex objects, they should stop being so darn attractive?

I fold. This logic is beyond me.

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	adevyish 2009-08-31 05:36 am UTC (link)
	This logic also manifests as "I beat up that guy because he was threatening my masculinity!" (Reply to this)(Parent)

	fools_game 2009-08-31 05:56 am UTC (link)
	If women want to stop being viewed as sex objects, they should stop manifesting sexuality in any way at all! Totes logical. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	queencallipygos 2009-08-31 03:09 pm UTC (link)
	....Oh, God, MAJOR flashback to that one meeting of my Catholic youth group.... (Reply to this)(Parent)

	dez_chan 2009-08-31 05:42 am UTC (link)
	Guys like this give straight men a bad name everywhere on the Internet (and make many of us females stare gratefully at the sane men in our lives). Also, they make me want to cockpunch them real hard. (Reply to this)(Thread)

	theelusiven 2009-08-31 04:00 pm UTC (link)
	Sometimes, I really wonder how much overlap there is between the Kotaku commentariat and /b/.. (Reply to this)(Parent)

blue_linnet
2009-08-31 07:02 pm UTC (link)

Wow. It is really interesting how a basically inoffensive article, written without screaming or anger can get such hysterical commentary. The straw man argument is HUGE. I really don't see how these people are getting there from the article. Where does it say anything like 'all men are evil, videogames will turn you into a rapist!' It doesn't. But oh yeah, I forgot. Any sort of implication that, hey, maybe something is a little bit sexist, and you might as well be the most hardcore feminist (sorry, 'feminazi') out there, saying all sex is rape, and screaming at men who open doors for you!

I've seen this happen in real life too.

Me: Ugh, I really don't like how that series portrays women
Him: Why do you have turn this into a feminist thing?

Uhm...I...wasn't? I mean, I *could*! But, that wasn't it dude.

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	redwarrior 2009-09-02 11:18 pm UTC (link)
	sigh This is why people think "feminist man" is an oxymoron. At least I'd let the girl explain why. (Reply to this)(Parent)