sisterelwood
2008-05-30 04:43 am UTC (link)

I'd be pissed over the fact of not getting that scholarship. She did the four years- just not in the time-frame most do them. If she got the highest GPA in the school's history then they really are punishing her for doing so well academically. If I were that student with the second highest GPA I'd be so ashamed to be taking the title some someone who really did earn it.

Hopefully, colleges and universities are falling over each other to get her and offering lots of money.

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	hallidae 2008-05-30 04:46 am UTC (link)
	Yeah. Of the two sides, I admit I'm definitely leaning more heavily on hers. It's really not fair that she seems to have done the work for nothing. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	chaimonkey 2008-05-30 05:03 am UTC (link)
	I'm confused: How does doing it in 3 years instead of 4 penalize her? (Reply to this)(Thread)

	hallidae 2008-05-30 05:06 am UTC (link)
	The school's policy is that you have to have been an official student of the high school (not just taking the credit classes) for four years as well as having the highest GPA before you can have full Valedictorian honors. It's apparently supposed to protect long-time students from short-time transfer students, but in this case... yeah. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	chaimonkey 2008-05-30 05:10 am UTC (link)
	That's just screwy. Idiots. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	ladybug218 2008-05-30 10:56 am UTC (link)
	It's apparently supposed to protect long-time students from short-time transfer students Well that doesn't seem fair either... why penalize a kid whose parents were re-located or who had to switch schools for some other reason from being named Valedictorian if they have the best grades? The whole thing is screwy, IMO. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

exdee
2008-05-30 02:12 pm UTC (link)

It would suck for the kid, but it would also suck for the classmates if their school only offered 2 AP classes and the new kid was coming in with credits from more- the new school would wind up weighting the grades, since they had a precedent with the existing AP classes, but the kids who had only had the chance to take AP classes wouldn't be likely to catch up with the new kid GPAwise.
It's not fair to anyone, but while one would hope that the students and their parents would be more angry with their school for lack of opportunities, they would probably take it out on the new kid valedictorian.

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	ladybug218 2008-05-30 06:13 pm UTC (link)
	Hmmmm, okay, I can see that. My school didn't have weighted classes so it wasn't really an issue. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	exdee 2008-05-30 02:13 pm UTC (link)
	*kids who had only had the chance to take 2 AP classes (Reply to this)(Parent)

sithwitch13
2008-05-30 03:30 pm UTC (link)

This was actually a problem in the city where I went to high school (Laredo, TX). It wasn't that people would move, it was that people from the more affluent schools who had mediocre grades there would switch to the "ghetto" schools in order to get into the top ten percent and thus be automatically accepted into certain colleges in-state. It was a really shitty situation all around, and I'm still not entirely sure that they've fixed the rules there.

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	ladybug218 2008-05-30 06:14 pm UTC (link)
	... oh damn, okay. That's a reasonable reason for that kind of rule then. But this situation clearly doesn't fall under that guideline... (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	sithwitch13 2008-05-30 06:59 pm UTC (link)
	Yeah, I know. The situation blows. I'm just saying that it's not a completely unreasonable rule in certain places. (Reply to this)(Parent)

queencallipygos
2008-05-30 05:12 am UTC (link)

On the one hand, yeah, this definitely seems like a "following the letter vs. the spirit of the law" scenario.

On the other -- pffft. The biggest practical consideration is just a scholarship, and I'm sure that she will get many with grade scores like that, so she'll be able to go to an uber-college and graduate from that magna cum laude and look back at her high school and go "pffft to you!"

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missm
2008-05-30 01:23 pm UTC (link)

I wondered if that was part of the reasoning. I know that this year the biggest scholarship at my kid's high school didn't go to the student with the highest GPA, because she'd already gotten a free ride at the school of her choice. The various scholarships were handed out to the top student with a view to actual need, which everyone tacitly acknowledges is a good idea. The amounts in question aren't very big so they try to make sure what they have to give does the most good.

As long as they made a big fuss over her and let her make a speech, I would be okay with it if they had handled it better. It sounds like they dragged their heels and then dumped it on her via email.

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	ladyvorkosigan 2008-05-30 08:02 pm UTC (link)
	Although the Ivy League schools, at least, don't give merit scholarships, so this could really hurt her if she wanted to go to Harvard or something. Honestly, seems like they should declare a tie and give them both a scholarship to me. (Reply to this)(Parent)

melannen
2008-05-30 12:40 pm UTC (link)

On one hand, sucks to be her.

On the other hand, the fact that she took three years is probably the only reason her GPA was that high - most of those cases, you get extra points for taking advanced-academic classes, so every non-advanced (honors, AP, IB, etc.) class you have to take lowers the GPA, and most schools have a limited number of those classes you can take. So if she'd done four full years like the boy who won, her GPA would probably have dropped several points just because of the non-advanced classes she'd have had to take (either freshman year, or as electives to fill in the other years.) So it would really suck to be the kid who *lost* the scholarship only because he had Freshman Bio counting on his high school transcript and she took it in middle school instead.

My school system was rigged so it was impossible to graduate in four years - you had to take four particular English classes, and they didn't let you double up or start early. People still left for college a year early, they just didn't get to graduate first, and I don't think many of them considered it a great loss.

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limyaael
2008-05-30 01:13 pm UTC (link)

On the other hand, the fact that she took three years is probably the only reason her GPA was that high

Yep. I know someone who was in a similar situation (though I think she skipped a few semesters in addition to taking extra classes), and the school likewise decided that the Valedictorian position should go to the student who actually had taken the all-purpose Introduction to Science class, etc., and done classes with more group projects, and still had a high GPA. I don't think there was a scholarship involved in her case, though.

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hallidae
2008-05-30 01:16 pm UTC (link)

Why would her GPA have lowered several points, if his was .21 (approximately) behind her doing the "appropriate" term? She still did four years' worth of high school classes, she just was registered as a middle school student for one of them. If the credit counted to graduate, it should have counted for Valedictorian status, or it shouldn't have counted at all and she still had to do the full term.

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melannen
2008-05-30 01:41 pm UTC (link)

You would think that, but at least in my school district, the high school classes you took in middle school counted toward your high school credits, but factored into your middle school GPA instead of your high school one.

Her GPA would have lowered because, say, an A in Super-Advanced College-Track Calculus is worth 6 points, while an A in Marching Band or Basketweaving II or Business Computers is only worth 4 points, so even if you get all As, your average lowers if you take those classes. Both the candidates had GPAs over 5.5, so the only difference was probably the proportions of advanced to non-advanced classes she took: If you get As in six IB classes, your GPA is 6.0; if you get As in six IB classes *and* two semesters of band, your GPA is only 5.5.

And chances are she didn't do four full years - she did the minimum classes necessary to graduate, which is often more like three-and-a-half years, which means even not factoring in middle school, she would've skipped all of the non-high-scoring electives that other kids take just because they're interested and they have time.

Which is why my school made you take four full years if you wanted to graduate with a class.

I mean, the whole thing is still deeply screwy, just like the whole US education system, and I can't help but wonder about the fact that she's apparently a female PoC and the guy who won is apparently a white male, but it *is* more complicated than just whose number is higher.

(I'm still bitter about the fact that despite getting mostly Cs my last two years of school, I was on college track and so graduated third with a GPA of 4.3 or something, while my friends with straight As who weren't middle-class enough to get pushed onto college-track got no recognition at all. It *sucks* in lots of ways.)

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	hallidae 2008-05-30 01:45 pm UTC (link)
	Aha. That's still... more than a little confusing for me, since my school system was structured so that even the geniuses had no choice but to do four years, but I can see what you mean. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	xturtle 2008-05-30 03:30 pm UTC (link)
	Ditto this. I tested out of all of my freshman classes, but once I got to PA or post-secondary options I realized I was stuck for four years like everyone else, and any college credits I earned during HS wouldn't likely transfer out of state. So I skated my last year and a half and relished not living up to my potential. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	xturtle 2008-05-30 03:31 pm UTC (link)
	*AP (really, I was smart once... HS was a long time ago) (Reply to this)(Parent)

	hallidae 2008-05-30 05:47 pm UTC (link)
	That's pretty much exactly what I did. (Reply to this)(Parent)

gunshou
2008-05-30 04:41 pm UTC (link)

I hate weighted GPAs. I wish like crazy that my school would get rid of them, because maybe then I would have actual honors kids in my honors class instead of kids who belong on a lower track but are trying to boost their GPAs.

The news just came to the English Dept that the incoming Freshman class has six or seven sections of honors English, six sections of college prep, and one section of thirteen kids of grade level. WTF? I cannot believe that 50% of eigth grade students in my district are honors level. It's all for the grade inflation, and it sucks that a kid getting a C in honors will end up with a higher GPA than a kid getting an A in college prep or grade level.

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	gunshou 2008-05-30 04:43 pm UTC (link)
	*eighth. Jesus. (Reply to this)(Parent)

altoidsaddict
2008-05-30 04:57 pm UTC (link)

Unweighted GPAs have their own drawbacks. In one of the years before me, one of the valedictorians was somebody who'd taken basic PE, basic choir, and the most basic levels of English and science he could get away with. It was rare for the AP students to graduate in the top percentiles because our AP teachers made it as hard as possible, so those aiming at valedictorian would dumb down their educations as much as possible.

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	lady_ganesh 2008-05-30 08:04 pm UTC (link)
	On the other hand, I didn't have a weighted GPA, and missed out on several scholarships as a result, as the valedictorian was a douchebag who took the 'easy' classes because she was afraid of losing her A average. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	your_face 2008-05-31 06:10 am UTC (link)
	I'm surprised your school doesn't have a minimum grade requirement for taking the higher level classes--at mine, you had to "place" into them from the start, and could only move up a level with a teacher recommendation. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	bananainpyjamas 2008-05-31 05:11 am UTC (link)
	You would think that, but at least in my school district, the high school classes you took in middle school counted toward your high school credits, but factored into your middle school GPA instead of your high school one. Hrm, that's not always the case. My HS-level middle school classes counted in my official high school GPA. And dragged it down (boo!) (Reply to this)(Parent)

jupiterpluvius
2008-05-30 03:15 pm UTC (link)

Because untracked classes like Physical Education aren't weighed the same way as advanced-placement classes. If I get an A in Phys Ed, it's a 4.0; if I get an A in AP Calculus, it's a 4.5 or a 5.0 or something, depending on the school.

So if A. took four years of classes, including Phys Ed, she's going to have less "extra credit" than someone who only took three years of Phys Ed.

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	marciamarcia 2008-05-30 03:21 pm UTC (link)
	My school system was rigged so it was impossible to graduate in four years Do you mean "in less than 4 years"? Because, otherwise, I'm very confused about your school system. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	melannen 2008-05-30 03:26 pm UTC (link)
	..yes. I did in fact mean "less than four years"; I r dum. Thanks for pointing that out. (Reply to this)(Parent)

white_serpent
2008-05-30 07:36 pm UTC (link)

I have never heard of weighted GPAs before, so this fascinates me. We had six AP courses available at my high school, but an A in them was worth the same as an A in anything else.

I am also fascinated that-- based on your other comments-- you didn't have required electives. My high school required two semesters of fine arts classes (in one of them, I got an A-, which put me out of the running for valedictorian), two years of foreign language, four years of English, three years of mathematics, three years of science courses, two years of PE, one year of "occupational education," several specific categories of social studies courses, etc. A specific number of quarter-credits were required to graduate, and taking high school courses in middle school did not count toward fulfilling the high school requirements (since they were already counting toward the requirements for completing middle school). It was not possible to graduate in less than four years.

A few years after I graduated, I remember hearing that someone had managed to be co-valedictorian and had dodged all the AP courses, done a lot of correspondence courses, etc., and it was generally considered "cheating." She had the GPA, so they let her give the speech anyway.

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melannen
2008-05-30 07:59 pm UTC (link)

Our school had some required electives - you had to take two semesters of PE, I recall, and at least one art or music, and one "technology" - but not very many, and it was set up so that if you passed all your classes and did the suggested sequence, the only required course left by your last semester was English.

And yeah, I understand the reasoning for weighted GPA (and it did help encourage the "gifted" kids to take the harder classes) but it never seemed like it was implemented fairly. My school gave you an extra .5 for honors and an extra 1 point for AP, but I know there are schools where you could even get an extra 2 (or more!) for IB or magnet courses, including apparently the one in the story, and that's just a bit beyond ridiculous.

And it renders GPA meaningless *anyway*, so why bother?

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your_face
2008-05-31 06:07 am UTC (link)

My school system was rigged so it was impossible to graduate in four years - you had to take four particular English classes, and they didn't let you double up or start early.

My school had the same thing going on, except there wasn't any way to leave early because they also required students to take six credits every year even if they didn't need them to graduate. All for one English class that lasted only one semester. My last year, especially the second half, was a huge waste of time; I ended up with multiple independent studies just to fill my schedule.

In retrospect I'm really glad to have been out of the running for the top spaces in the class...it seems like the Valedictorian/Salutatorian titles are handed out with such varying requirements that it's not worth the fierce competition. Heck, both for my class were allowed to cheat to get there. Go school politics.

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chibikaijuu
2008-05-31 06:33 am UTC (link)

My school was like that too - you were required to take four years of English, and there was no way to take them simultaneously, as they were by grade level (even AP - Lit and Language were junior/senior only, respectively (or vice-versa, I don't quite recall)). You had to pass each consecutive year, and could not take them simultaneously even if you took them at night school. I graduated a semester early (or rather, got all of my required credits, and then left for a semester and came back in June to graduate officially) by taking the first semester of 12th grade Honors English during the day, and the second semester of 12th grade English for Bleeding Morons at night. That was pretty much the closest you could generally get to graduating early.

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exdee
2008-05-30 02:25 pm UTC (link)

I can just see this happening in a few years (my old high school is 15 years old, I'm waiting for baby to mature and start producing drama, especially since they just started going hardxcore for AP classes when I was a freshman there- seven years ago, eek), since my old district is now allowing middle school kids to take science classes at the high school (they let you take high school math for a long time- wonder what happens when they let you take high school English and history too), adds two AP classes a year, and has set up a virtual high school that for some reason keeps kids associated with the high school they would have attended, iirc.
Especially the virtual high school. As I understand it, it wasn't really designed for anyone they expected to be in the running for valedictorian (more like running from the cops), but since you can take it associated with a high school and counting for high school credits, and even take classes through it that count for high school while still going to regular school- yeah, I can see a disaster there, especially with more achievement-oriented parents and teachers taking advantage of it.

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blankverses
2008-05-30 02:39 pm UTC (link)

This is why my high school had no Valedictorian. Between the two different discipline magnet programs and the "regular" students taking advanced classes, there would have been hair-pulling fisticuffs over stuff like whether you should get more credit for Calc 3 or AP French Literature and what-not.

It sucks that she's not Valedictorian, but I'm sure once she gets her lovely scholarship packet to college she'll be okay, and only rail about it when drunk in her dorm that her university's paying her to live in.

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made_by_kali
2008-05-30 04:28 pm UTC (link)

This is 'news'? The same thing happened in my graduating class of '01.

Our school just made the 4-year student the Valedictorian and the the 3-year student was made the 'co-valedictorian' which looked nice on her college applications but didn't really mean anything. Miss Co-Valedictorian did try to complain and was pretty much universally told to sit down and STFU, because the Valedictorian had a ton of stuff on his CV and all she had done was coast through and skip all the really annoying bullshit electives.

Maybe I'm bitter because I could have graduated in 3 years but chose to take extra AP class, keep up with my extra curricular activies and just deal with a senior year of 4 bullshit classes to fill out my schedule, but I honestly think that you should have to do the time if you want the prize.

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	lots42 2008-06-05 08:58 am UTC (link)
	Bullshit high school classes exist? ::re-examines his high school years:: (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	made_by_kali 2008-06-05 12:24 pm UTC (link)
	What state did you go to high school in? (Reply to this)(Parent)

gunshou
2008-05-30 04:34 pm UTC (link)

My thoughts on being Valedictorian: let me show you them!

In my (private) high school, the top 20% of the class - there were only 80 of us - had the opportunity to choose to write either a valedictory or salutatory speech. Then a panel of volunteer students and all faculty heard the speeches and voted for the best. The rationale was that while the top academic students were the only ones eligible, the Valedictorian would be the best speaker and writer in the school, voted on by peers as the most representitive of her class.

The mother of the girl with the second highest GPA was so pissed off that the Valedictorian of my class wasn't the highest ranked student that she called the parents of every other student who gave speeches (except the presumptive Valedictorian, of course) to complain about the unfairness inherent in the system. Which was stupid, because her daughter was Salutiorian. Her daughter, meanwhile, took a mental health day at the mall to recover from the trauma. *shrugs*

Which is all to say - much drama, little result. The students in the public school in which I teach love the idea when I tell them about it, though.

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kahrohseh
2008-05-30 05:52 pm UTC (link)

Confession of vanity time: when I saw this headline, I thought it was about me.

I have the highest grades in my graduating year at my college (we're a professional school within the university, encompassing two departments). But because someone from my department was Valedictorian last year, the administration decided to give the honour to the highest grade in the other department... which wasn't even a 4.0. I'm still a chancellor's marshall but, no, honey, that doesn't look the same on a resume. Who even knows what a chancellor's marshall is?

The school (the one in the OP) is pulling some separate-but-equal bullshit for the sake of politics. They're coming up with these technicalities ("she wasn't here for four years", my ass! what about normal geniuses who still do four years of work in three years? are they disqualified too?) but I'll bet it's all being thrown around to disguise something very simple: that they don't want an uproar from the general student body about "unfair advantages"; that this girl got on their nerves one too many times; that they saw Election and thought Matthew Broderick's character acted sensibly; something to that effect.

And hell, if it was just a name schtick, that'd be one thing. But they cheated her out of a scholarship. For once here's a student who did more than shuffle her way through HS at the tour guide's pace, who really did demonstrate excellence, initiative, and above-average aptitude, and the school's claiming an unfair advantage? Wat?

P.S. So as not to seem totally wanky, I should mention I don't mind that much about my own situation. After all, now I don't have to do a speech, and I would have hated doing a speech. But school politics? Bug the shit out of me.

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	iwanttobeasleep 2008-05-31 04:02 am UTC (link)
	Wow, they weren't even nailing you with a technicality. That's some brand of speshul. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

kahrohseh
2008-06-02 12:09 am UTC (link)

I guess they feel that departmental parity is more important. I can sort of see their point, except I was planning on grad school, and saying I was Valedictorian at a world-renowned professional school within an even more world-renowned university... would have looked pretty damn good. Well, at least they can't take my Latin honours away from me. ~~And if the other department cared so much about image, maybe they should push their students to achieve higher than a B average.~~

*mops up*

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kahrohseh
2008-06-02 12:09 am UTC (link)

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	lots42 2008-06-05 08:56 am UTC (link)
	And here I thought it was a sucky mess when my principal said 'Please wait until the line of students went through before clapping'. He was ignored year after year after year. He never learned. It gave me faith for humanity. (Reply to this)(Parent)

vorpal_blade
2008-05-31 06:24 pm UTC (link)

Sounds like they're slicing the cake wrong to me. If the point of the policy is to prevent latecoming transfer students from being Valedictorian then that means that you have to have done ALL of your high school work at that school. Whether she did some of that in middle school or not is irrelevant; if she did all of her work toward the HS diploma AT THAT SCHOOL then she was a student there for the whole time and should be Valedictorian. That she wasn't doing it during four consecutive calendar years but took even LESS time to accomplish this doesn't/shouldn't matter as long as she didn't acquire any of her HS credits at a different school.

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chibikaijuu
2008-06-06 07:24 pm UTC (link)

Huh. My brother just graduated from high school, and they had two co-valedictorians, because the first girl was told she was valedictorian due to a screw-up on the school's part, and instead of telling her she wasn't actually the valedictorian, they gave it to both her and the actual valedictorian. So we had to sit through four student speeches instead of three, and neither of the valedictorians were really any good (also I kind of wanted to slap the first one for her faux-wide-eyed-and-naive slamming of public schools and anyone who chooses a large/less expensive university).

I really kind of wish they could just have said "oops, we fucked up, go sit down".

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