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pathology_doc
2009-09-20 10:22 am UTC (link)

To both of you:

I did not say that this woman should have had a gun, although a spray of rock salt across the legs or a couple of blanks fired in their direction might have deterred the little shits and sent them running home in terror with their pants full, never to return.

What I was saying was that legal erosion of the right to self-protection and the undue emphasis given to the rights of offenders in this day and age (especially juvenile offenders) leads eventually to the horrors portrayed in the OP - the victim is barred from retaliating and the agents of the State, who must perforce take on even more of the responsibility for community protection, have their hands tied even if they are on the spot and see it all happen.

I then went on to say (deliberately so in a separate paragraph and stating that it was on a somewhat related note) that this is IMO why pro-firearms, pro-self-defence advocates in the US are so loath to move from their entrenched position - that once they lose the right to firearm ownership in the name of self defence, they see a slippery slope developing which will lead to what we have seen in Leicestershire; and that in my mind they are absolutely justified in fearing this progression.

The only thing that would have stopped these little deadshits is for a couple of six-foot policemen to have been able to drag them home by the ear (literally), toss them into the livingroom, describe the situation to their parent(s) and say "Your little brat has one chance. You give him a damn good thrashing for what he's done right now, while I watch, or I'll take him down to the station and book him and he'll be in fucking Juvenile Prison by tomorrow morning; and if he does it again, he'll be in before he can say boo."

But no, it's all got to be softly-softly. I think we underestimate the viciousness of children, not to mention their appreciation of just how powerless the law is against them.

When I was a kid, I trusted the police implicitly and respected them enormously, because I saw them as a harsh but fair authority and one I didn't care to defy. These kids hold the police in contempt, because they know they can find advocates who will downplay their crimes while emphasising their rights.

I disagree utterly with your accusation that guns only compound the problem, but I have the feeling that I'll never be able to argue you out of your position. Most criminals are cowards - they won't bother someone they know stands a very good chance of blowing their head off, and the fact that law-abiding citizens have to keep their guns locked up in the first place if they are allowed to have them is IMO a product of anti-firearm politics based on emotion, not reason.

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mary_mac
2009-09-20 12:15 pm UTC (link)

Actually, making you lock it up is to avoid all those lovely cases where kids get into the gun box, or kids wander into the bedroom and get shot, etc. Or burglars find the guns and a robbery turns into armed robbery, turns into murders, into police getting shot.

The British laws about locking up your weaponry way predate the Nanny State.

(Also, the kind of kids who do that, they're not going to be dealt with by their parents. That's how they got to be that way. The police aren't able to do much about that.)

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kuromitsu
2009-09-20 12:59 pm UTC (link)

Or an owner actually shoots an unarmed burglar turning a robbery into murder...

(Also, the kind of kids who do that, they're not going to be dealt with by their parents. That's how they got to be that way. The police aren't able to do much about that.)

Exactly. Hell, many of them terrorize their own families. In some cases the police may be able to scare them (happened to a couple of kids whose parents I know: they were taken in and they spent the entire night at the station -with their parents' approval, btw- and they came out next morning with their pants full), but sometimes they're are nigh unmanageable because they don't give a damn until they're actually in juvenile prison (which, by the way, doesn't do a whole lot of good either).

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	mary_mac 2009-09-20 01:51 pm UTC (link)
	Assuming their parents are even on the scene or you know, parenting. Plus, don't know about Leicester, but round here the police are hilariously overstretched. If there's no weapons and no blood, they're not going to be there because they're dealing with the situation where there are weapons and blood or a multi-car pile up. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)