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fools_game
2009-10-27 06:38 am UTC (link)

I just... wait, wait.

He sends a bunch of people of a thirty-six hour vision quest with fasting, including not drinking water, in Arizona, which I'm told is quite hot and dry. So you've never fasted before - lots of people cope badly with fasting the first time - and you're dehydrated, possibly already in shock because your body isn't used to going this far.

He then crams over sixty inexperienced, exhausted, dehydrated people into a very small crudely built sweat lodge and keeps them there for over two hours. With inadequate ventilation, badly-regulated heat, and intense psychological pressure to stay there and push their limits.

Honestly, I'm surprised more people didn't die.

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	honorh 2009-10-27 07:11 am UTC (link)
	Yeah. Three dead, eighteen others injured badly enough to need hospitalization. One-third casualties is an appalling number, but they got off cheap, considering. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	fools_game 2009-10-27 07:45 am UTC (link)
	Did you see the picture of the 'sweat lodge'? Not even tall enough to sit up in - to fit 60 people, they'd have had to be crammed in like literal sardines, with absolutely no way out. (Reply to this)(Parent)

selene_avis
2009-10-27 01:18 pm UTC (link)

At my school, the Muslim Student Association holds a yearly event during Ramadan where they get people to pledge-fast, and the money collected is donated to charity. They encourage people to eat a healthy breakfast in the morning [before the sun comes up] and then there's a delicious dinner [after the sun goes down]. They also strong encourage participants - especially those who aren't accustomed to fasting - to break their fast if they find themselves not feeling well, and women who are pregnant or menstruating are told not to fast.

That's my experience with fasting.

I can't imagine telling a bunch of inexperienced fasters to go thirty-six hours without food and water and then sticking them in a death trap of a sweat lodge. Seriously, it boggles the mind. I'd heard about the sweat lodge part before, but not about the fasting.

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fools_game
2009-10-27 01:38 pm UTC (link)

Exactly. Any one of these stupid, stupid things would boggle the mind, but all of them? Fasting with no safety net or medical supervision? Fasting without water in the desert? Two solid hours in a dangerous sweat lodge with no medical supervision or safety precautions? And then pressuring and shaming people into staying in there when every safety mechanism their body has is telling them to get out? And then stopping people from trying to help the injured, shocky, terrified victims?

One stupid, dangerous thing after another.

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	lady_ganesh 2009-10-27 02:02 pm UTC (link)
	There was a really great article on NPR about a teen athlete who was fasting for Ramadan, and talking about how the coaches and the team kept looking out for him. It was also clear that, religiously, he was allowed to drink if he wasn't well, it was just something he felt he should do. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	sarracenia 2009-10-28 01:30 am UTC (link)
	Yeah, I remember when I was in junior high and one of my best friends was fasting for Ramadan during volleyball season, everyone kept a close eye on her because, well, southern California weather + sports + no water fasting (She was willing to moisten her mouth, but not drink) = lots of nervous people. (Reply to this)(Parent)

honorh
2009-10-27 02:10 pm UTC (link)

I've done fasts before, and whenever it's been an organized event, the church has given out lists of to-do and not-to-do things while you're fasting. If you're fasting all food and drink, cut down activity accordingly and drink water if you need it. If you're fasting all food, keep hydrated and cut down activity accordingly. God will understand not killing yourself for a fast!

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kylenne
2009-10-27 04:43 pm UTC (link)

I have never, ever, EVER heard of any legit sweat with more than 20 people. In my life. Any more than that and it just becomes impossible to monitor participants. Which is what anyone responsible and trained in legitimate tribal practices would do. As somebody on TNH's blog said it's death-for-profit.

Not to mention that I have never heard of plastic tarp used in a lodge. I've never heard of a legit one, regardless of the tribe, that used anything but natural materials local to the area. When the Yavapai--one of the tribes local to the area of Sedona, for whom the county is named--prepare a lodge, the rocks are treated in a very specific fashion handed down by elders which coincidentally happens to be 100% scientifically sound as far as removing impurities.

Re: fasting, I have never, ever heard of any legitimate spiritual tradition calling for fasts that don't involve water. When my Evangelical family fasted, we took water, sometimes juice, which is entirely Biblical. The Muslims I know take water during Ramadan, as do Catholics during Lenten fasts. And I know Hindus also take water. I have fasted before, and let me tell you it really sucks the first time. Around the third day you tend to get nauseous. And when you break fast you have to do it slowly, with stuff like broth, before you can work back up to solid food. And every single legit tradition that incorporates fasting tells people to stop as soon as their health even LOOKS compromised.

This is basic information that anyone with an even rudimentary knowledge of legit spiritual practices would have, but, again, we're dealing with New Agers, who don't know from legit and never have.

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Reposted to clarify...

rosehiptea
2009-10-27 06:28 pm UTC (link)

Not to nitpick, but Jews will fast without food or water. However that's only about twenty-five hours for Yom Kippur (day of atonement) and Tisha B'Av (day of mourning for the temple), and about half that for some shorter, less-observed fasts.

But even at that length, if it's making you sick, you stop, and if you even think it might make you sick, you ask your doctor. So you're still right.

I haven't done Tisha B'Av recently but I fast on Yom Kippur every year. As long as I take it easy it's not that bad but I can't picture doing the long fasts in other religious traditions.

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	Re: Reposted to clarify... chibikaijuu 2009-10-28 05:33 pm UTC (link)
	I drink water on Yom Kippur, but a) I am not very observant and b) the medications I take (which I can't stop and start abruptly) make me dehydrated (I also have to eat a very little bit in the morning because taking one of my meds on an empty stomach is inadvisable). But again, medical reasons. (Reply to this)(Parent)

frequentmouse
2009-10-27 06:57 pm UTC (link)

The low-temp mundane sweats around here (the ones people use after Chum fishing, f'rinstance) often include a sheet of visqueen over the top, or even the wild or native blue polyester tarp. PNW ritual, in general, includes a lot of whatever keeps the rain off/things you find on the beach; one old sweat I've seen was largely made of green army blankets and canvas pup-tents.

I've got a long extremely unfuny comment below about this, but the thing is: sweats are a widespread, nearly global kind of behavior, sometimes entirely mystical, sometimes mundane, and can exist in a culture in both mundane and spiritual form; precontact, the mundane was probably the more common.

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frequentmouse
2009-10-27 07:04 pm UTC (link)

Also: Ramadan and Lenten fasts are also only fasting in a limited sense: in Ramadan, fasting during daylight hours, in Lent, foregoing certain classes of food. And, as Rosehiptea, says, if there's any chance it'll make you sick, you don't fast, if it's making you sick, you don't fast, pregnant or nursing women, the elderly, small children, don't fast...

And the combination of fasting and sweating except as an endurance test for individuals is not something which exists as a cultural norm; descriptions of large numbers doing so come from the Ghostdance which was an apocalyptic cult.

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	inalasahl 2009-10-28 12:05 am UTC (link)
	in Lent, foregoing certain classes of food Lots of people fast during Lent for charity. Typically, you're allowed to eat one bowl of rice a day (and drink as much water as you would like), and then you donate the money you would normally spend on food. Or when I was in college, my University always had a week where you could donate your meal card points to Oxfam. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	frequentmouse 2009-10-28 12:32 am UTC (link)
	Yeah, but that's a very limited number of people. Those who fast from meat, desserts, coffee, or their favorite food are more common. And there's a whole big chunk of American Protestants who treat Lenten fasting as one of those Catholic things that aren't really Christian. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	brennalarose 2009-10-28 12:51 am UTC (link)
	Or giving up things they otherwise enjoy. I have a girlfriend who gives up video games for Lent (my stepmother jokes she gave up Christianity for Lent and never went back). I have enough issues that abstaining from food types is bad, but I can get away with giving up webcomics. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	frequentmouse 2009-10-28 02:07 am UTC (link)
	I gave up hope one year, but I'm sort of a sole practitioner in my Lenten observations. The year I gave up Starbucks was an education; at the end of 40 days I has something like $160 more in the bank than at the same time the year before. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	brennalarose 2009-10-28 06:04 pm UTC (link)
	Amazing, innit? I think I'll be donating the money that would have been spent on WoW to that video game charity (blanking on the name) or something else awesome. (Reply to this)(Parent)

kylenne
2009-10-31 07:25 am UTC (link)

Yeah, I mean--I don't know ANY legit religion, regardless of how it's done/what the restrictions are/how long it goes on for that doesn't have a "if it's a threat to your well being, then stop" clause.

But, again, logic and education are things sorely lacking amongst this crowd. If they weren't dropping 10k to a plastic shaman for a fake sweat they'd be getting scammed by prosperity gospel hucksters. If you don't know shit you will fall for any kind of shit.

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	aerobot 2009-10-27 05:07 pm UTC (link)
	I feel kinda like an ass for saying this, but didn't anyone in that program ever realize that this was an incredibly bad idea? I know almost nothing about dehydration and human health but even I know that sounds like a recipe for disaster. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

selene_avis
2009-10-27 07:26 pm UTC (link)

I feel kinda like an ass for saying this, but didn't anyone in that program ever realize that this was an incredibly bad idea?

Probably. But that's where the James-Arthur-Ray-is-an-expert, cultural appropriation people-have-done-this-for-centuries, group pressure if-you-quit-you're-not-strong-enough, monetary investment this-trip-cost-nearly-$10000, shock panic failure-to-act comes in.

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	aerobot 2009-10-28 07:04 am UTC (link)
	Yeah, most likely. It's pretty sad, to be honest. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	fools_game 2009-10-27 09:35 pm UTC (link)
	Sure. Except the whole weekend they would have been told to ignore their body's danger signals, that the only way to unlock their potential was to push themselves to their limits, that pain was good, that vomiting and disorientation mean they were doing it right, and that anybody leaving the death trap was weak, not to mention wasting ten thousand dollars. (Reply to this)(Parent)

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