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Faulty Premise ([info]faultypremise) wrote in [info]unfunnybusiness,
@ 2010-04-19 16:34:00


Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
Supreme Court to Hear All-Comers Policy Case.

The gist of this: Christian based group on campus has been told that it's new policy to exclude gays and people who advocate or engage in premarital sex from their group goes against the University's all-comer policy and they will no longer be given public funding for their group because of it. Christian based group believes they are being discriminated against because they are told they may not discriminate.

And now the Supreme Court will be reviewing the case.



The U.S. Supreme Court hears arguments Monday in a major case testing whether state colleges and universities can deny official status and subsidies to student groups that bar homosexuals and other groups from membership. The case could affect public colleges and universities across the country, and it puts the court in the middle of a long struggle by Christian activists who contend that their rights are violated on campus by secular rules.

Hastings College of the Law in San Francisco has for 20 years had what it calls an all-comers policy. Any student group is entitled to official school recognition, as long as the group accepts all comers. Official recognition entitles the group to a small subsidy, preferred use of campus facilities, use of all campus bulletin boards and e-mails and use of the school logo.

A Change In Policy

The Christian Legal Society has long had a Hastings chapter that was recognized as a registered student organization, but in 2004, the group affiliated with the national Christian Legal Society and changed its policy to exclude from membership homosexuals and those who advocate or participate in pre-marital sex.

"When we did that, the director of student services said that the statement of faith in our bylaws violated their rules against discrimination on the basis of religion and sexual orientation," says Isaac Fong, a former chairman of the campus Christian Legal Society.

"In practice, this meant that CLS was rendered invisible on campus," Fong adds. "CLS was denied the ability to communicate with students or to have a physical presence on campus, and that caused the members of CLS to diminish to the point that there are only a few students left now."

The law school counters that the Christian Legal Society's membership actually doubled in the year after it was denied official status, that the group held meetings on campus, organized a lecture and held banquets.

Indeed, CLS did stipulate in court that the school does have an all-comers policy. So, the core of Monday's case is whether religious beliefs can trump a neutral school policy that applies equally to everyone. "All student groups are required to abide by our nondiscrimination policy," says law school Dean Leo Martinez. "And we are not forcing any particular group or any person to accept that as their belief. However, they're simply not entitled to state or public funding."

Martinez notes that state law bars the school from engaging in any discrimination based on sexual orientation or religion. That, and the school's educational mission, are the reasons the school adopted a policy that requires campus clubs to admit all comers, regardless of viewpoint.

Opposing View

But Stanford law professor Michael McConnell, representing the Christian Legal Society, says the CLS policy is not discriminatory.

"Not in the sense of being an invidiously discriminatory policy. There is absolutely nothing wrong with groups of Americans gathering together around shared beliefs," McConnell says. "It's OK for feminists to have a feminist club. It's OK for environmentalists to have an environmentalists club, and it's OK for Christians to have a Christian club. That isn't discrimination. It's freedom of association."

Representing Hastings, lawyer Gregory Garre counters that there's nothing that prevents a group from forming around shared beliefs and expressing those beliefs on campus. But if the group wants official recognition and funding, it has a choice.

"If they wish to discriminate in their membership and to deny access to certain students, they are free to do that as well, but they have to forego status as a school-recognized and school-funded group," Garre says. "What CLS is really seeking here is a special status," which is "funds and benefits that go along with being a school-funded and school-recognized group, with an exemption from the rules that apply to every other group."

McConnell disagrees. "It cannot be true that governmental units can deny whatever they classify as benefits, not matter how essential those benefits may be to the survival of an expressive association, on the basis of whatever they label discrimination," he says. "That would mean that tax-exempt status could be denied to Orthodox synagogues because they segregate men from women."

Subsidizing Groups

But Garre replies that this is not a case about churches and synagogues. It is a case about public universities, subsidized by the taxpayers and an educational mission. If openly discriminatory membership policies must be subsidized, he contends, that would apply to much more than just religious groups.

"We're talking about the environmental group who doesn't want to admit students because they may believe that global warming is a hoax. We're talking about the outdoor club who doesn't like to hike with members of the military reserve because they disagree with the war in Iraq. Under Hastings policy, these groups cannot exclude students on those bases," Garre says. "Groups are free to form around their own viewpoints and to have their own membership policies," he continues, "but when they choose to become a school recognized and school funded group, they have to comply with Hastings open membership rule."

And he, says, every other officially recognized group at Hastings has done that, including other religious groups.

A decision in the case is expected by summer.


Bolded emphasis is mine, because WHOA. I recommend listening to the audio if you can.

At the time I read this the comments were actually fairly decent. This could change at any moment though, read at your own risk.


(Post a new comment)


[info]dez_chan
2010-04-19 05:14 pm UTC (link)
CLS was denied the ability to communicate with students or to have a physical presence on campus, and that caused the members of CLS to diminish to the point that there are only a few students left now.

Awww, how sad; they had a hate party and didn't have as big a turnout as they'd hoped. *tear*

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]quantumreality
2010-04-19 06:24 pm UTC (link)
*snerk*

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]sistercoyote
2010-04-19 10:24 pm UTC (link)
I read about this somewhere earlier (maybe Box Turtle Bulletin?) today, and their membership has gone up, not down.

So, yeah. Lying liars who lie.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]sistercoyote, 2010-04-19 10:27 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sistercoyote, 2010-04-19 10:31 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dez_chan, 2010-04-20 02:51 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ladyvyola, 2010-04-20 01:15 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dez_chan, 2010-04-20 09:12 pm UTC

[info]snarkhunter
2010-04-19 05:21 pm UTC (link)
Inside Higher Ed has a really interesting piece on this case here. Basically, he argues that this policy protects all students and student groups, and the CLS is shooting themselves in the foot with this lawsuit.

It helped me to clarify my own feelings on the subject.

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]dez_chan
2010-04-19 06:36 pm UTC (link)
Excellent link.

Envy, rage, hatred, jealousy, selfish ambitions, discord, dissensions, factions, drunkenness, greed, coveting, slander, evil thoughts, and violating the Sabbath are all prohibited by these Biblical passages.

So...they could be kicked out for being on the Dean's List? Or having an Amazon Wish List? Or screaming at the TV during a rowdy night on X-Box Live?

Also, doesn't this case violate at least four of those precepts (discord, dissensions, factions, hatred)?

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]snarkhunter, 2010-04-19 07:21 pm UTC

[info]sandglass
2010-04-19 05:52 pm UTC (link)
So, wait, am I having a slow day or are they saying that because of the separation of church and state, they should be able to use government funding to support their religious discrimination?

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]mmanurere
2010-04-19 06:11 pm UTC (link)
Yep, that pretty much seems to be it.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]dez_chan, 2010-04-19 06:31 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]aliaras, 2010-04-19 07:39 pm UTC

[info]emily_goddess
2010-04-21 06:49 pm UTC (link)
Sounds like "unnecessary entaglement" to me. Lemon fail.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]mmanurere
2010-04-19 06:13 pm UTC (link)
Note how they take for granted that any Christian group must be heterosexual-supremacist.

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]jat_sapphire
2010-04-19 06:30 pm UTC (link)
Inorite? My own first reaction to this piece was more along the lines of "But what about gay Christians?"

Huh, they don't believe there are any.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]telegramsam, 2010-04-19 07:58 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]finchbird, 2010-04-19 08:34 pm UTC

[info]cygnia
2010-04-19 07:48 pm UTC (link)
Well, OBVIOUSLY if they're not then they're not REAL Christians. Like those horrible Satanic-Unitarians!

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]mmanurere, 2010-04-19 11:25 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]snarkhunter, 2010-04-20 12:39 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]faultypremise, 2010-04-20 01:41 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]snarkhunter, 2010-04-20 03:24 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]faultypremise, 2010-04-20 01:49 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]snarkhunter, 2010-04-20 02:55 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jat_sapphire, 2010-04-20 08:56 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]snarkhunter, 2010-04-20 10:13 pm UTC
Jesus was a liberal Jew! - [info]ruslan, 2010-04-21 01:49 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]catremistrae, 2010-04-20 03:12 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]dejla, 2010-04-20 07:40 pm UTC

[info]ldymusyc
2010-04-19 07:03 pm UTC (link)
that caused the members of CLS to diminish to the point that there are only a few students left now

I'm guessing that probably had more to do with the premarital sex rules.

On a college campus.

Could just be me, though. o.O

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]snarkhunter
2010-04-19 07:20 pm UTC (link)
Well, law school, but yeah.

Also, what liberal-leaning person in his or her right mind would voluntarily choose to be a part of this group? I don't think they need to worry about being infilitrated by infidels.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]sgaana, 2010-04-19 10:37 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]snarkhunter, 2010-04-20 12:37 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]eleutheria, 2010-04-20 05:00 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]emily_goddess, 2010-04-21 06:52 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sgaana, 2010-04-20 03:34 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]libelle, 2010-04-20 05:25 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dejla, 2010-04-20 07:42 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]libelle, 2010-04-20 09:28 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dejla, 2010-04-21 02:34 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dez_chan, 2010-04-20 09:16 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jaythenerdkid, 2010-04-21 01:53 am UTC

[info]adevyish
2010-04-19 07:25 pm UTC (link)
Zing.

At my campus, a Christian group organized a rally entitled "God is better than sex: A rally to pledge for sexual purity". This was their poster.

I couldn't stop laughing for days.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]tez, 2010-04-19 07:29 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]aliaras, 2010-04-19 07:40 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sheep, 2010-04-19 09:03 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]silmaril, 2010-04-20 03:39 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jat_sapphire, 2010-04-19 08:00 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]eleutheria, 2010-04-20 05:01 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]vejiicakes, 2010-04-20 05:14 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]brennalarose, 2010-04-20 04:59 pm UTC

[info]tez
2010-04-19 07:27 pm UTC (link)
I devoutly hope that Stanford prof is in the camp of "they paid me to take the case so I'm speaking on their behalf", because otherwise the part of my brain that trusts in law professors to understand the law is going to be irreparably bruised.

(Reply to this)


[info]rosehiptea
2010-04-19 07:31 pm UTC (link)
That would mean that tax-exempt status could be denied to Orthodox synagogues because they segregate men from women.

Huh? Tax-exempt status isn't the same as getting official recognition and funding at a university. If this group were a church, they could get tax-exempt status as far as I know. (I'll admit I know little though, so correct me if I'm wrong.)

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]jat_sapphire
2010-04-19 08:01 pm UTC (link)
Not only that, but Orthodox synagogues don't tell women they CAN'T JOIN.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]rosehiptea, 2010-04-19 08:11 pm UTC

[info]evilpuppy
2010-04-20 06:36 am UTC (link)
No no, you're right. Tax exemption and university funding are two completely separate creatures that are being lumped together either to make it sound more impressive, or just because they can't be arsed to actually KNOW they're two different things.

In which case, one hopes they stop sleeping through their basic accounting classes.

(Reply to this)(Parent)

(no subject) - [info]bacon_lover, 2010-04-20 06:59 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]persona, 2010-04-20 01:49 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]bacon_lover, 2010-04-20 07:02 pm UTC

[info]frequentmouse
2010-04-19 08:34 pm UTC (link)
I recently read an exchange where a person who said that the Word of Christ specifically prohibited bigotry was accused of using the No True Scotsman fallacy.

There is a great deal of pure stupid currently around the subject of religion.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]also_not_a_pipe, 2010-04-19 10:05 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]chikane, 2010-04-19 10:19 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sistercoyote, 2010-04-19 10:36 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]overlord_mordax, 2010-04-19 10:40 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sistercoyote, 2010-04-20 12:09 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]finchbird, 2010-04-20 12:47 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]overlord_mordax, 2010-04-20 12:48 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]overlord_mordax, 2010-04-20 12:51 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]darksumomo, 2010-04-22 06:23 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]cyndra_falin, 2010-04-19 10:47 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]frequentmouse, 2010-04-19 10:23 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]deliciouschaos, 2010-04-19 10:59 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ladyophelia14, 2010-04-19 11:09 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sistercoyote, 2010-04-22 06:21 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]snarkhunter, 2010-04-20 12:38 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]finchbird, 2010-04-20 12:48 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]dez_chan, 2010-04-20 02:53 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]pariforma, 2010-04-20 02:18 pm UTC
So basically...
[info]fevered_ego
2010-04-19 08:40 pm UTC (link)
YOU ARE SAYING DISCRIMINATION TO ME THAT IS DISCRIMINATION

(Reply to this)(Thread)

Re: So basically... - [info]napalmnacey, 2010-04-20 07:47 am UTC

[info]agent_hyatt
2010-04-19 10:30 pm UTC (link)
Why do they always cry "discrimination!!1" when they stop getting public funding?! There's a difference between not getting money from the government and not being allowed to form a group at all. Learn it!

(Reply to this)


[info]ladyophelia14
2010-04-19 11:11 pm UTC (link)
This just reminds me of all the people who don't understand how freedom of speech works either.

Your amendments: Learn them, damn it!

(Reply to this)


[info]greenling
2010-04-20 01:38 am UTC (link)
There are college groups that get funding? Man, I was all ready to support them before I heard that; at my college you either took dues or did without.

But yeah, this would end up fucking with a lot of people. If nothing else I see no reason these assholes are not going to make it their policy, if this goes through, to go harass every GLBT, atheist/non-Christian-religious, and socially liberal group they can find.

(Reply to this)


[info]khym_chanur
2010-04-20 05:15 am UTC (link)
Wait, wouldn't that mean that a religious group couldn't exclude people who don't belong to their religion?

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]bacon_lover, 2010-04-20 07:26 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]snarkhunter, 2010-04-20 11:40 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ryuutchi, 2010-04-20 08:16 pm UTC

[info]zyna_kat
2010-04-20 11:13 am UTC (link)
Ok, the CLS are a bunch of loons, clearly. But, when he says, We're talking about the environmental group who doesn't want to admit students because they may believe that global warming is a hoax, doesn't he have a point? If a feminist group (for example) excludes an anti-feminist student who only shows up to disrupt meetings, they could lose their official status. That means one hostile student could take down an entire group.

I mean, I know the difference between excluding a student because he or she is being disruptive, and the people here know, but common sense doesn't always prevail.

Am I missing something?

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]snarkhunter, 2010-04-20 11:37 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]zyna_kat, 2010-04-20 11:50 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]telegramsam, 2010-04-20 03:05 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]zyna_kat, 2010-04-20 09:24 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]zyna_kat, 2010-04-20 09:29 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]agent_hyatt, 2010-04-20 11:42 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sgaana, 2010-04-20 03:37 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]selene_avis, 2010-04-20 03:56 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]bacon_lover, 2010-04-20 06:58 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]chibikaijuu, 2010-04-20 05:18 pm UTC

 
   
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