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	rosehiptea 2011-11-29 07:40 am UTC (link)
	I read about that yesterday and almost posted it myself. I really hate to think what this could become, now that this is happening. (Though I know this isn't the first case.) (Reply to this)(Thread)

	zellieh 2011-11-29 12:08 pm UTC (link)
	I really hate the way children can die if they're not taken away from abusive parents. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-15689864 (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - issendai, 2011-11-29 02:54 pm UTC

amadi 2011-11-29 07:52 am UTC (link)

What's especially obnoxious and infuriating beyond words is that the foster mother, who is not able to get the child to all of his many medical management appointments (his mother could) is being offered resources that were never made available to the mom. They're now also thinking about moving the kid to a house with a physical trainer. Would they give him a free physical trainer while he remained with his family? No. That aspect of things happens all the time, the family is barely able to make it, and there's no help. The kid gets yanked and suddenly there's all the money and resources in the world. (Reply to this)(Thread)

janegray 2011-11-29 01:38 pm UTC (link)

For some reason JF won't let me post a long comment, so I'll try splitting it in 2 parts. The boy's mother has been provided with help for nearly two years. From this article: http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2011/11/obese_cleveland_heights_child.html County workers were alerted to the child's weight in early 2010 after his mother took him to a hospital for breathing problems. He was diagnosed with sleep apnea, which can be weight-related, and was given the breathing machine. Social workers began to monitor him under what the county calls protective supervision. So, the 6-year-old child had already developed a life-threatening condition. A 6-years-old child had to wear a C-pap (a bulky forced air machine) nightly so that he wouldn't stop breathing in his sleep and die. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - amadi, 2011-11-29 05:13 pm UTC

(no subject) - kartikeya, 2011-12-01 12:12 am UTC

(no subject) - jupiterpluvius, 2011-12-01 08:30 pm UTC

(no subject) - kartikeya, 2011-12-01 08:35 pm UTC

(no subject) - janegraddell, 2011-12-05 02:55 am UTC

janegray 2011-11-29 01:43 pm UTC (link)

Make that 3 or more parts. Stupid JF >_> Last year, the boy lost weight but in recent months began to gain it back rapidly. That's when the county moved to take the child, records show. The mother agreed to enroll the child in a special Rainbow Babies & Children's Hospital program called Healthy Kids, Healthy Weight. That program has evaluated more than 900 overweight and obese children from the ages of 4 to 8 since 2005. A team of specialty doctors, nutritionists, psychologists and others treat the children and work to educate families about creating healthy eating habits. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	janegray 2011-11-29 02:04 pm UTC (link)
	Oh, ffs! I've been trying for one hour, and JF won't let me post any comment that's longer than a few words! I'll retry later. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - qem_chibati, 2011-12-04 03:34 am UTC

janegray 2011-11-29 10:42 am UTC (link)

That article is extremely biased. This one is more accurate. http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2011/11/obese_cleveland_heights_child.html I'm going to copy and paste a comment from another site. As someone who actually deals with the foster care system, please stop with the inane remarks. We're talking about a 200-lb 8-year-old. The average height for kids at that age is around four feet tall. Even if he were a full foot taller than the average 8-year-old, he would be at a catastrophically unhealthy weight. Meanwhile, the question the Gawker story asks -- "How can the county people be so sure that the boy doesn't suffer from hypothyroidism?" -- makes no sense given that the link clearly says the child's been enrolled in "a special Rainbow Babies & Children's Hospital program called Healthy Kids, Healthy Weight" in which "a team of specialty doctors, nutritionists, psychologists and others treat the children." He's already developed sleep apnea, which is often attributable to obesity and which can be fatal. Would you prefer that they wait until after he's developed diabetes and hypertension? The story frequently and unquestioningly quotes the mother's lawyers -- could we agree they're not the most unbiased source of information? Their job is to represent her interests -- not the child's, hers. The link states plainly that CPS has monitored the case since early 2010. They're not just snatching a kid from his mother at the slightest provocation -- they've given her nearly two years' worth of slack to try to cope with the situation. She cops out and says that other people give him food. This is an 8-year-old, not a 16-year-old -- how is it that your child is so poorly monitored that other people can be feeding him unbeknownst to you? It's very easy to sit on the sidelines and snidely second-guess while other people try to save children's lives. If the kid had died from an obesity-related condition, the same people who are criticizing CPS workers for over-reaching would be on at them for failing to intervene. I get frustrated with the system at times, but I also know I couldn't in a million years do their job, and I respect them for doing it in the context of a society that basically doesn't give a rat's ass about abused children and cuts funding to programs that help them at the drop of a hat. (Reply to this)(Thread)

zellieh 2011-11-29 12:01 pm UTC (link)

I completely agree with you. It annoys me that people who can clearly see that starving a child is abusive, can't see that overfeeding a child is equally abusive, especially when a child can die from both. In fact, we recently had a more extreme case here in the UK where a Mum who thought her child needed to eat a particular diet held the child down and force-fed that child. Eventually, the force-feeding killed the child. It's worth pointing out that overfeeding of children can be down to their parents having psychological issues. I'm not that's what happened in this case, but some abusive parents like the medical attention and sympathy that comes with having a sick kid, so there's a possibility that cases like this could be Munchausen's by proxy. There's also an odd kind of pride some parents can take in having a child who is special, even if they're special because they're sick or extremely overweight. It may not be as extreme as Munchausen's, in that the parents don't make the child sick, but it can be just as damaging, because on some level they do like the attention and sympathy they get from having a sick child. Some abusers like having physical control of a child, and making a child sick makes them more vulnerable and more dependent on their parents for care. Parents don't need to forbid their kids from leaving the house and having friends, if they can make it physically very difficult. Then, if a parent is also overweight, they may be in denial about their own eating & health problems, and be unwilling to really admit that there's a problem with their child's weight. If they can't admit there's a problem, they can't fix it. Abuse can be subtle and complicated. One of the hardest things to accept is that abusers aren't evil monsters, and some of them do genuinely love their children, even as they do abusive things to them. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - jupiterpluvius, 2011-12-01 08:31 pm UTC

jujubee 2011-11-29 01:16 pm UTC (link)

Actually, it is very likely that this kid has Prader-Willi Syndrome, like the other kid they talked about in the first article ended up having. That was the genetic predisposition. Having two sisters with PWS myself, they are obsessed with food and get it wherever and whenever they can. My mother has had to deal with the bus driver giving my sister cookies, or the school failing to stick to the special snacks my mom packs them. And when you a have a metabolical disorder where you use about half the number of calories as a non-PWS person, those few cookies make a huge difference. It's very easy to sit on the sidelines and snidely second-guess the mother, and say she's just copping out. I don't blame CPS for doing what they feel they need to, but to demonize the mother when there clearly IS a medical condition here (PWS or otherwise) doesn't make you any better than the people criticizing CPS. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - janegray, 2011-11-29 01:30 pm UTC

(no subject) - jujubee, 2011-11-29 01:40 pm UTC

(no subject) - paranoidandroid, 2011-12-01 07:54 pm UTC

(no subject) - jujubee, 2011-12-01 10:32 pm UTC

	kijikun 2011-11-29 03:16 pm UTC (link)
	Maybe they should have offered the mom all the resources they're giving the foster mother? (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - janegray, 2011-11-29 03:45 pm UTC

(no subject) - theelusiven, 2011-11-29 04:50 pm UTC

(no subject) - janegray, 2011-11-29 07:13 pm UTC

(no subject) - sneer, 2011-11-29 08:59 pm UTC

(no subject) - janegray, 2011-11-29 09:24 pm UTC

(no subject) - amadi, 2011-11-30 05:55 am UTC

(no subject) - mneiai, 2011-12-02 08:10 am UTC

(no subject) - kijikun, 2011-11-29 05:02 pm UTC

(no subject) - amadi, 2011-11-29 05:21 pm UTC

(no subject) - miera_c, 2011-11-30 01:23 am UTC

(no subject) - janegray, 2011-11-29 07:08 pm UTC

(no subject) - kijikun, 2011-11-30 12:30 am UTC

(no subject) - amadi, 2011-11-30 05:56 am UTC

(no subject) - cat_mcdougall, 2011-11-29 05:37 pm UTC

amadi 2011-11-29 05:17 pm UTC (link)

How is it that your child is so poorly monitored that other people can be feeding him unbeknownst to you? Simple. There are other children in the house (who apparently are not shockingly obese) and there is food in the house. There are children at school with lunches. So the 8 year old (who could hurt other kids by virtue of his size alone) cajoles or threatens his siblings and friends into giving (sneaking) him their food. I'm not saying that this kid did so, but suggesting that it could only be happening due to poor monitoring is facile. He would have to be in the eyeline of a supervising adult 24/7 to stop it. (Reply to this)(Parent)

varpstone 2011-11-29 06:51 pm UTC (link)

Even if he were a full foot taller than the average 8-year-old, he would be at a catastrophically unhealthy weight. Good to know that I've been catastrophically unhealthy for about 15 years now. :/ Hey, I get what you're saying here. But it is EFFING HARD to lose weight, even with a so-called "normal" metabolism. Even harder is trying to force someone that you love to lose weight, especially when that person is a child, I imagine. It's easy to say that this woman is the parent and anything that the child eats should be checked and double-checked by her, but the kid is school-aged. Maybe other kids give him food. Maybe he begs or bullies for food. Maybe he steals food. Maybe the school's hot lunch is carb-dense junk just one step short of a Big Mac. Sorry if I come off sensitive. I'm just tired of this. All of it. I watched my stepdad berate, cajole and bully my mom about her weight until it came out that she was hypothyroid. Then he was all sympathetic. But now that her levels are more stable, he's doing it again. There's also the chicken-and-egg shit. Yeah, fat people get the sleep apnea. But there's also evidence that poor sleep -causes- weight gain. Fat people get the diabetes. But sometimes once their glucose levels out, they suddenly lose a shitload of weight. Fat people can also be disabled, and have invisible disabilities (like the "made up" fibromyalgia). Did their fat cause their disabilities, or did their disabilities help get them fat? If there's no evidence of her deliberately fattening up her kid (does she live in a gingerbread house?) and in fact, she is actively trying to address his health issues, there's no need for him to go into foster care. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - janegray, 2011-11-29 07:29 pm UTC

(no subject) - jujubee, 2011-11-29 08:52 pm UTC

(no subject) - rosehiptea, 2011-11-30 03:49 am UTC

(no subject) - cereta, 2011-12-01 08:32 pm UTC

(no subject) - edana_ni_emer, 2011-12-02 06:39 am UTC

(no subject) - sorchar, 2011-12-05 06:50 am UTC

sandglass 2011-11-30 04:25 am UTC (link)

That link is kinda bullshit too, though. Fatness doesn't cause diabetes and hypertension, and while sleep apnea is "often attributable to obesity" that doesn't mean that it's the mother's fault, the weight's fault, or that something isn't causing both the apnea and his size. There's no evidence other than the sleep apnea, and his weight, to show that he's being "overfed" or abused. Losing weight is next to impossible. All diets, including eating perfectly and exercising a lot (and sticking to the diet/exercise plan for years), have a 95+% rate of failure. The only time you see statistics that are different is when you're looking at the short term, as people who lose weight and keep it off for a year generally gain it back in another year or two, even when they follow their healthier regiments. It's really awful to say "Well, she didn't make the kid lose weight, so it's okay they took him away" when weight loss doesn't mean he's going to be any healthier, if he's capable of it at all. Also, if a kid is feeling hungry, is it so bad if his siblings help him? Hunger is hunger, and it sucks, and no one likes to see a loved one in pain. Fat people can be underfed too--in fact, when diets stop working for fat people, doctors and nutritionists will sometimes pressure them to eat in ways that would be considered anorexic for a thin person. Who knows if his doctors aren't advising him to eat so little that he's hungry often, or if his mother is so terrified of losing him that she'll starve him in hopes of causing weight loss? This obviously isn't about health, the defining line is whether or not he loses weight. Maybe he's just a healthy fat kid with an unrelated disorder. And now he's a healthy fat kid with an unrelated disorder who has been ripped from his family. Finally...CPS monitoring a case!=giving the mother adequate help. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

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(no subject) - sandglass, 2011-11-30 06:26 pm UTC

(no subject) - jaythenerdkid, 2011-11-30 10:46 pm UTC

(no subject) - sandglass, 2011-11-30 11:03 pm UTC

(no subject) - jaythenerdkid, 2011-12-01 07:24 am UTC

(no subject) - rosehiptea, 2011-12-01 04:57 pm UTC

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(no subject) - rosehiptea, 2011-12-01 09:56 pm UTC

(no subject) - jaythenerdkid, 2011-12-01 10:35 pm UTC

(no subject) - mneiai, 2011-12-02 08:27 am UTC

(no subject) - sandglass, 2011-12-01 07:30 pm UTC

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(no subject) - jaythenerdkid, 2011-11-30 09:24 am UTC

(no subject) - kaen, 2011-11-30 10:20 pm UTC

(no subject) - jaythenerdkid, 2011-11-30 10:47 pm UTC

(no subject) - rosehiptea, 2011-12-01 01:37 am UTC

shadwing 2011-11-29 09:23 pm UTC (link)

I think I can say the following An 8 year old child that weighs as much or more than an adult male is a serious health issue full stop, it's not bloody normal by ANY stretch. When mom brought him into the Emergency Room for his breathing problems at 6 years old and he already had a serious health issue and serious weight problems. So here's my question...a child doesn't get THAT large in a year or so, sleep apnea and other disorders also don't appear overnight, what did the mother do to help her child BEFORE that trip to the emergency room? Was she taking him to the doctor? Wouldn't any doctor taken one look at this child's weight gain and said "Oh this needs to be looked at..." Especially if her other children didn't show any signs of serious weight gain? The friggin ER Docs called Social Services the second they saw the kid, so it stands to reason any other doc would have done something. Wouldn't somebody at the childs school have noted this, teachers, a school nurse, anybody? Red flags are everywhere, even if the mother was in denial about her child's condition and had ignored/blocked out advice from doctors and other caretakers...she couldn't ignore the state, and they helped her with the CPAP machine. And as somebody who works for a company that provides those things, they are NOT CHEAP a bare bones one plus maintance and supplies can run you hundreds of dollars a month to RENT, forget buying one thats a few grand, and fitting a child for one outside hospice or critical/terminal end of life care is not common. I don't want to demonize the mother...but what happened to her son didn't happen overnight, the child was suffering from this for years before the state stepped in and helped the mother before they decided to take the child and it might be that she just couldn't handle or deal with her childs condition...whatever it may be, again this CAN happen it can be overwhelming especially if there are other children in the household. Short Term is going to be hell of all involved, I hope that the kid gets the help he needs...and it looks like he will god willing...and they figure out what happened here, and HOPEFULLY once his conditions are under control he could be reunited with his family. (Reply to this)(Thread)

	jujubee 2011-11-29 10:23 pm UTC (link)
	fitting a child for one outside hospice or critical/terminal end of life care is not common. Are you sure it's not more that you don't see it as often because the need isn't so common? My sister has one, and it was not a big deal at all to get her fitted. As soon as it was determined she had apnea, she was able to a CPAP. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - shadwing, 2011-11-29 10:29 pm UTC

amadi 2011-11-30 06:02 am UTC (link)

And as somebody who works for a company that provides those things, they are NOT CHEAP a bare bones one plus maintance and supplies can run you hundreds of dollars a month to RENT, forget buying one thats a few grand Yeah, that'd be a big huge giant NO. This is a don't even have to scroll for it result in a quick search at Amazon. $670. To buy. Brand new. Plus the hoses and mask, etc, still under a thousand dollars. A lot of money, to be sure, especially if you're not rich or not insured, but still doable when it's life and death for your kid. Given that you say you work with these things every day and are misrepresenting the cost so significantly it puts everything else you're contending into question. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - shadwing, 2011-11-30 02:00 pm UTC

(no subject) - cyndra_falin, 2011-11-30 10:07 pm UTC

(no subject) - shadwing, 2011-12-01 01:46 am UTC

(no subject) - amadi, 2011-12-01 03:07 am UTC

(no subject) - cyndra_falin, 2011-12-01 04:27 am UTC

(no subject) - amadi, 2011-12-01 04:41 am UTC

(no subject) - shadwing, 2011-12-01 05:22 am UTC

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(no subject) - shadwing, 2011-12-01 06:03 am UTC

(no subject) - amadi, 2011-12-01 05:37 am UTC

(no subject) - chikane, 2011-12-01 06:51 am UTC

(no subject) - sleepyjean, 2011-12-06 07:28 pm UTC

(no subject) - chibikaijuu, 2011-12-07 06:18 pm UTC

(no subject) - sorchar, 2011-12-05 06:53 am UTC

	jaythenerdkid 2011-11-30 12:53 am UTC (link)
	Even if the mother's actions weren't outright abuse, they'd qualify as neglect, and that's enough justification to remove a child. It's an unfortunate situation, but removing kids from bad situations always is. Plenty of neglectful and even abusive parents do love their kids. Doesn't mean the kid shouldn't be taken out of that dangerous situation. (Reply to this)(Thread)

	morgyne 2011-11-30 01:46 am UTC (link)
	Exactly. I don't really see the mother shaming/vilification etc. in these statements. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - amadi, 2011-11-30 06:05 am UTC

(no subject) - morgyne, 2011-11-30 07:27 am UTC

	kijikun 2011-11-30 07:06 am UTC (link)
	Okay if she's a bad mother why was the other child allowed to stay? (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - jaythenerdkid, 2011-11-30 09:08 am UTC

(no subject) - kijikun, 2011-11-30 04:15 pm UTC

(no subject) - morgyne, 2011-11-30 04:58 pm UTC

(no subject) - shadwing, 2011-11-30 06:07 pm UTC

(no subject) - pantyless_angel, 2011-11-30 06:43 pm UTC

(no subject) - rosehiptea, 2011-11-30 07:48 pm UTC

(no subject) - pantyless_angel, 2011-11-30 08:21 pm UTC

(no subject) - rosehiptea, 2011-11-30 08:34 pm UTC

(no subject) - shadwing, 2011-12-01 01:54 am UTC

(no subject) - jaythenerdkid, 2011-12-01 07:21 am UTC

(no subject) - rosehiptea, 2011-12-01 05:00 pm UTC

(no subject) - undomielregina, 2011-12-01 09:53 pm UTC

(no subject) - chikane, 2011-11-30 10:18 pm UTC

(no subject) - kijikun, 2011-12-01 04:06 am UTC

	lil_miss_stfu 2011-12-01 03:33 pm UTC (link)
	http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php?/site/article/2347/ I'll just leave that there for y'all. (Reply to this)(Thread)

	morgyne 2011-12-01 04:29 pm UTC (link)
	http://www.nytimes.com/2001/07/08/magazine/watching-her-weight.html I'm fonder of this one because it is a bit more thorough, covering the state's treatment of the parents as well. I think it gives better service to the parents in that story without the editorializing. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - jupiterpluvius, 2011-12-01 08:38 pm UTC

(no subject) - morgyne, 2011-12-01 09:07 pm UTC

(no subject) - pantyless_angel, 2011-12-01 10:08 pm UTC

(no subject) - lil_miss_stfu, 2011-12-01 11:39 pm UTC

jupiterpluvius 2011-12-01 08:37 pm UTC (link)

I don't see where they've documented that the mother was overfeeding this child. Yes, the child has an extremely high body weight and lots of allied health issues (some of which may be causes rather than results of high body weight). There can be a lot of explanations other than the mother's choices for that. Many obese children, especially children living in poverty, have been documented in studies to be consuming insufficient calories, not excess calories. (See Study #3 on this page, for example; other similar studies were conducted in Nova Scotia and Wisconsin since then.) (Reply to this)(Thread)

lil_miss_stfu 2011-12-01 11:32 pm UTC (link)

He doesn't have 'lots' of allied health issues - if those articles are to be believed he has ONE. And its one that isn't even definitively linked to obesity. Because skinny people have sleep apnoea too. Just like skinny people have Type II Diabetes, Hypertension, elevated cholesterol and heart disease. These articles, just as many others when referring to the 'obesity epidemic' that seems to be going on in multiple countries, are screaming about the many things that he COULD wind up with. Because correlation fucking equals causation don't you know? (Sorry, not attacking you, I just get fucking pissed off that the media intentionally whip up hysteria by promoting ignorance of how statistics work.) (Reply to this)(Parent)

bacon_lover 2011-12-03 07:06 am UTC (link)

Some state worker had to make a judgment call--and a child was taken away from their parents, possibly with none of the family's consent. I don't think ANY side feels great about this. I don't think anybody is clearly in the right. It's a messed up situation; no-one has the clear moral high ground. Everybody involved right now is trying to make the best of a bad situation, ideally and hopefully. Time probably won't even tell if it's for the best or worst--nobody can say later on what would have happened if these steps weren't taken. For everyone thinking they know what's best for this situation, or diagnosing an 8 year old based of their own situations: may all your choices be so simple, but I hope you never decide my fate. IMHO, nobody is the winner here, and that's not the point. (Reply to this)

uldihaa 2011-12-07 03:24 am UTC (link)

/rant ON You want to know what really pisses me off? People blowing off possible serious heart problems just because it "might" happen. Here's a news flash: There are two states for heart problems, "Might happen" and "Has happened." There's no "Going to happen." There's no definitively catching it before it happens. You might get lucky and catch it at "probably going to happen," but it'll never be more conclusive than that until it's too late. I for one don't want to read a story about an elementary school boy who's had congestive heart failure because a Child Protective Service didn't want to offend someone by removing him from a situation in which there was documented backsliding into continued danger. This kid is on a breathing machine. In the third grade! Should they just wait until he's rushed to the hospital with heart failure before acting? You want to know what life is like surviving congestive heart failure? First, sodium restrictions. Sodium intake is limited to 2000g per day, for the entire day. If you go beyond that too often, your feet swell up into blocks of flesh, you can't sleep fully reclined, and just holding your arms too close to your sides can make you lose circulation in them because your torso has also swollen. And of course there's a chance of having the lungs fail because of the excess fluid; the excess fluid that a healthy heart gets rid of with no trouble and without most people even knowing about it. Going out to eat at restaurants is pretty much out of the question, unless you don't mind or enjoy eating nothing but house salad as everyone else enjoys their steaks, or pasta, or roast, or whatever. They use too much sodium in their cooking, with most entrees alone exceeding your daily limit. Here's an experiment just to get an idea of what it's like to live with CHF. Plan out a seven day/three meals a day menu. Then go back and check to see how much sodium is consumed each day. Then try to plan a week of meals with only 2000g of sodium allowed per day keeping in mind that all drinks and snacks must be included in that 2000g limit. It's not easy unless you're already a vegetarian. Nor is it particularly varied unless you really know how to cook. If you don't know how to cook, you better learn fast or live with someone who does. Oh, and no more salty snacking for you! The second thing is the medications. Someone who's survived CHF gets the "privilege" of joking with the pharmacist about their "big bag of meds" every time they refill their prescriptions. They also get to "enjoy" the pleasures of swallowing a potassium pill, half again larger than a Centrum multivitamin, everyday. Why? Because they are also taking a daily does of a water pill to help prevent dangerous levels of fluid retention. Then there's the cholesterol meds, and the alpha-blockers, and pills to relax blood vessels. Oh,and getting to carry around a tiny bottle of nitro pills and aspirin everywhere. Sounds like something every adult would want. Even better for a child, right? Oh, and lets not forget the potential panic attacks for years afterward, caused by that whole sleep apnea thing. Nothing feels better than getting only a few hours of sleep a night because you're freaking out over breathing difficulties and are too terrified to go to sleep until someone is awake to check on you. And the occasionally obsessive checking of your heart rate when you have gas, because you can't tell if it's the gas or another heart attack causing the breathing problems. Does this boy have high cholesterol as well as an extremely high weight? I don't know, the article doesn't say. But like I said at the beginning of my rant: There are only two states for heart problems, "Might Happen," and "Has Happened." You don't get a second chance with this. You can't just say, "Oops" and get new heart valves. Once it happens, it's a life sentence with no chance for parole and no pardon. I'd rather someone stepped in and tried to do something rather than stood aside twiddling their thumbs until something life changing happened, all because they were too worried about offending or upsetting someone. /rant OFF (Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - uldihaa, 2011-12-07 06:13 am UTC