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	nifflet 2011-12-01 04:44 am UTC (link)
	I think the creepiest part of the whole thing is the "Is that so?" response. To me, it about sums up the worst nightmare a rape victim has: telling someone what happened and receiving nothing but mild disinterest in return. The refusal to find abortion clinics is infuriating. The straight-up apathy towards rape victims is chilling. (Reply to this)(Thread)

ivyette
2011-12-01 06:52 am UTC (link)

I really can't understand the abortion clinics thing, but the rape/vagina stuff I can: the programmers expected people who mentioned these things to be bored idiots playing with their phones. It apparently didn't occur to the programmers that people might have legitimate needs related to sexual assault or female body parts. There's a whole tumblr based around siri's responses to weird things people ask it, and the "is that so?" response fits right in with the other stuff people say, like "siri get undressed" or "I want to have sex with you" or whatever. If the programmers REALLY wanted to make the point that saying things about rape isn't a joke, they should have had her always respond with something like emergency services instead of a stupid jokey reply.

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amadi
2011-12-01 03:05 pm UTC (link)

The abortion clinics thing is actually easy to understand now that it's been made clear that Siri doesn't search the web when you're looking for any kind of local business or service provider, Siri searches Yelp. And so if no one has added abortion providers in your area to Yelp's listings and ensured that they're categorized as "abortion clinics" then Siri won't find them. And if someone's added the listing for a fake antichoice "clinic" to the abortion clinics listing on Yelp in your city, that'll be what Siri will show when you ask for abortion help.

Apple should have vetted their choice of search partner more carefully. That Yelp is completely deficient in many locations when they get outside of restaurants and recreational things is pretty easily seen if you're not blinded by their raw numbers and actually dig down into their categories. That more sensitive areas, like personal health issues, would be poorly covered was entirely foreseeable.

The rape thing is a bit more distressing as it points directly to a programming matter. Siri understands (there's been a ton of mansplain about the word "understand" but Apple uses it repeatedly about Siri, so I will too) the phrase I"m hurt" and maps it to a search for hospitals, same with "I've been shot" and "I've been stabbed." But "I've been raped" is somehow not in the vocabulary. The oversight is pretty stunning. And if you ask for "rape resources" that somehow maps into searching on Yelp for a sexual abuse treatment center, which is not only missing the point, it's kind of like searching for Nyan Cat in Encyclopedia Britannica.

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ivyette
2011-12-01 11:24 pm UTC (link)

Oh, wow. I didn't realize the Yelp thing. That's not a "glitch", Apple. That's a massive fail. Apple's partnered in with a biased, incomplete system, and if I was a customer, I'd be upset about that even if it wasn't about something this important. I bet a lot of people use this service thinking it'll simply get them the closest restaurant/doctor/etc out of all of them, when instead it's giving them only what the provider wants them to see. That's... actually kind of creepy.

I've read the tumblr post a few times now and I'm still astounded that all she'll do to help you when you've been raped is say "really?" or, occasionally, allow you to search for yourself, which is basically saying either "I don't believe you" or "here, help yourself," instead of asking if you need law enforcement, or medical services, or mental health services, or legal counsel, or anything else you might need that comes before being snarked at.

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	nifflet 2011-12-02 12:16 am UTC (link)
	It also implies that someone anticipated the query "Siri, I've been raped" - but automatically assumed it would be a joke. Still awful. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	ivyette 2011-12-02 12:23 am UTC (link)
	Yeah, exactly- I can see someone anticipating "I want to rape you, Siri" as a bad joke, but that's very much not the same thing as "I've been raped". There's no excuse here- Siri is a complicated enough program to understand the difference, rather than just picking up one keyword and assuming it's always, 100% of the time, a joke. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	rganymede 2011-12-02 02:27 am UTC (link)
	Actually, it implies the opposite to me -- "Is that so?" is the sort of generic reply that's usually programmed in to respond to any unrecognized phrase. So, while not anticipating the phrase "I've been raped" while anticipating "I've been hurt" is bad, I don't think we should assume that they actively programmed in a joke response to it. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	amadi 2011-12-02 06:30 am UTC (link)
	Right, the "Is that so?" response you get is the same as if you tell Siri you've got a purple car, or just ate ice cream. Its the reaction, or one of them, when it doesn't recognize a request or a command. (Reply to this)(Parent)

sandglass
2011-12-02 08:04 am UTC (link)

This is the problem when you don't have varied enough testers before it went to market (fuck the whole "It's in beta" thing, it's a selling point for the device so it's not a fucking beta, that's just an excuse to get out of responsibility). That's a perfectly valid explanation, but this is the exact reason for more extensive testing, because that default noncommittal response isn't noncommittal in every situation.

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	bacon_lover 2011-12-03 06:52 am UTC (link)
	holy. shit. This really is massive unfunny. Either it's intentional fuct up, or it was a giant mistake; both make me really sad, and I can't stomach trying to figure out which is worse, I bottom out way before I get there. Not on, so messed up. Soo messed up. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	gardnerhill 2011-12-02 04:26 pm UTC (link)
	Hey Apple. Little bit of advice. Next time you beta something you want everyone to have...try getting some women as well. (Reply to this)

	wallflower 2011-12-02 06:17 pm UTC (link)
	Feministe did another set of questions. Among other things, Siri understands "I want my dick sucked" (escort services) but not "I want my pussy eaten" (pet stores). According to some comments I've read, in the UK, Siri is a male voice. (Reply to this)

	athersgeo 2011-12-02 09:12 pm UTC (link)
	This whole thing disturbs me. Apple should have done better on this whole thing, period. BUT. I also have to say I'm disturbed that anyone thinks anyone is going to seriously ask a mobile phone application what to do when they've been raped. Are we, as people, REALLY that uneducated? (Reply to this)(Thread)

darsynia
2011-12-03 12:47 am UTC (link)

I strongly suspect that the problem was found after the issue with the crisis pregnancy centers. Like, no one had asked the question until it became clear there might be an issue with how Siri reacts to other women's health issues, and then asked a range of questions that would pinpoint a problematic series of responses.

I think it's telling that Siri's development team is the largest at Apple, but clearly doesn't have enough women to counterbalance the whole 'well, someone's BOUND to ask how to get laid' or 'LOLOL let's make sure it can answer 'how do I dispose of a dead body!!'' with actual answers for things women might think to ask (which doesn't necessarily include 'I've been raped,' but the abortion clinic/contraceptive thing, definitely. AFAIK a large proportion of men won't ever bother with escort services, but most women will at the very least consider contraception at some point in their lives).

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darsynia
2011-12-03 12:53 am UTC (link)

Re: my first paragraph--actually that's exactly what happened, and the article, if you read it, covers your response:

Another objection I saw was along the lines of “Why would you use Siri if you were raped or beaten by your husband?
This is pretty obvious to me: maybe because if you’re hurt badly, all you might be able to do is hold down one button and say what happened to you. Nevertheless, if Siri can understand “I broke a tooth” and direct you to a dentist...

Though to be fair, it covers my response as well:

People have suggested that this about a lack of female programmers. I don’t think it is. One doesn’t have to be female to know that if you’re going to provide your customers with the benefit of the doubt that they’re adults and will give information on where to buy condoms, beer, the names of local escort companies and “tongue in cheek” locations for hiding a dead body, you should provide information about health clinics, especially when customers know their full names and basic locations.

I don’t think you need females on your programming staff to know that a person can go to an ob/gyn for birth control, not just a “birth control clinic.” I don’t think that it’s necessary to be female to know that rape is a violent crime and that a rape victim will need a hospital and/or the police before they need a “treatment center.” This isn’t just about gender. This is about something more esoteric and far far less simple to explain.

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chash
2011-12-03 01:28 am UTC (link)

I don't really see why it's so disturbing or ridiculous. I'm fairly educated, but very bad with directions. I often don't know where the closest emergency services to me are. In cases where date rape drugs were used, the victim might be out of it, and possibly not even sure where he or she is. And given how few rapes are reported through official channels, it seems entirely reasonable to me that a victim might prefer to go directly to a hospital instead of calling 911. For those kinds of cases, a program like Siri seems like a good resource.

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rosehiptea
2011-12-03 01:36 am UTC (link)

I once called information looking for a rape crisis line. How is this any different.

(To be clear, I wasn't raped, just... briefly assaulted on a date... but I wanted to talk to someone about it.) I'll admit I wasn't even looking for an emergency room or the police because it wasn't at all applicable. But I don't see what's even remotely odd about using a mobile phone app in these circumstances.

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chash
2011-12-03 01:41 am UTC (link)

Yeah, it is an information resource for when you need information. I don't see why it's so unbelievable (and I've seen a lot of comments in various places that boil down to "who would use Siri after being raped?") that someone would want to use an app for this. If they don't have the information they need (rape crisis line, nearest emergency room, whatever), why wouldn't they use Siri?

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chikane
2011-12-03 07:26 am UTC (link)

I also have to say I'm disturbed that anyone thinks anyone is going to seriously ask a mobile phone application what to do when they've been raped.

Are we, as people, REALLY that uneducated?

Sorry that after being assaulted, I displayed my complete lack of education by being disoriented, not knowing where I even could get help, and not even remembering the police phone number (or my own number, for that matter). I will try to be more educated next time, since as everyone knows, education totally helps against shock.

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ivyette
2011-12-03 10:55 am UTC (link)

From what I understand, you only really have to press a button to get siri to respond to your voice. So if you're very badly hurt, in the dark, disoriented and can't type properly, or whatever else, the easiest thing might very well be to say a few words near your phone. You might not know what you need, or what you need to do first, and seeing it laid out- emergency room, law enforcement, etc- might help clear your head. If it could give you clear directions and advice, that would be wonderful- siri's not human, but a voice calmly telling you what to do might be just what someone in such an awful position might need.

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	gardnerhill 2011-12-04 12:05 am UTC (link)
	It's called "shock." I once witnessed two men start a fight right in front of me, and that's when I discovered that you really can forget how to dial 911. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	mareen 2011-12-04 05:28 pm UTC (link)
	Oh man, the same happened to me. Two of my neighbours were fighting in the apartment's stairway and the wife of one of them was calling for help. I couldn't for the sake of me remember the emergency number. (Reply to this)(Parent)

ldymusyc
2011-12-04 05:14 pm UTC (link)

Are we, as people, REALLY that uneducated?

... Wow. Yeah, 'education' totally prevents shock, fear, and confusion. o.O

And yes. It is entirely possible. When I was in college, I was still getting questions from women I knew, about sex and subjects related. A few of the women who'd been at my high school were thoroughly convinced that babies and urine came out of the same hole. Sex ed in my school system boiled down to "there are boys, they have urges, and there are girls, they have periods, DON'T HAVE SEX OR ELSE, the end". Rape, assault, and what to do? Not mentioned even once.

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	kumquat_of_doom 2011-12-05 09:18 pm UTC (link)
	Are we, as people, REALLY that uneducated? I don't know about that, but are YOU, as a person, REALLY that lacking in empathy? (Reply to this)(Parent)

librarianmouse
2011-12-06 04:12 am UTC (link)

Are we, as people, REALLY that uneducated?

As others have mentioned, education has nothing to do with it. I have a friend who's a nurse. When his son was critically injured, he forgot everything he ever learned about emergency medical treatment. He forgot that there was a phone number you can call to get help. He forgot everything except his baby bleeding on the sidewalk.*

A person who has been assaulted may well forget how to think critically, and I can see how a phone app that answers your questions could be a huge help.

*In case you were wondering, aforementioned baby is now four years old and healthy, with the knowledge that real kids can't fly like Superman.

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jujubee
2011-12-06 04:25 pm UTC (link)

My sister-in-law is a trained lifeguard, so knows emergency procedures and CPR and such. When her 2-month-old daughter got a marble stuck down her throat (her older daughter shoved it in there...), she grabbed the baby and went screaming outside calling for someone to call an ambulance, rather than picking up a phone herself and doing anything to try to dislodge the marble herself. Panic causes you to forget all of that. (Again, baby is now a healthy four-year-old, though they nearly had to do surgery to get the marble out, but the doctor was able to dislodge it as he was rushing her into surgery.)

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Warning: Grossly Unpopular Opinion Ahead

seriousbusiness
2011-12-09 12:35 am UTC (link)

I don't see this as Apple being for or against choice. I see this as a programming issue, and nothing more.

While yes, Apple could do more to include resources for rape/crisis intervention/abortion, as someone previously noted, look at what it uses for sources. Apple most likely won't use Google since they're in direct competition with each other in the phone market and it doesn't have a search engine of its own, so it has to go with another popular destination search, and that is (unfortunately), Yelp.

These kind of programming errors, and I can think of quite a few others besides Siri that have had far worse consenquences than this (see, iPad privacy breach) are not because programmers are heartless women-hating bastards who don't care, it's simply because The Powers That Be have decided that initial product rollout has to occur ASAP, thereby halving the time for programming and beta testing.

Everyone cries when they don't have the quality that they want, yet they want the product in the quantity they want, and quantity is always going to win over quality, hands down (especially with recent Apple releases).

If you want Siri to work for you, stop shitting on the programmers; this isn't their fault. If it were up to programmers, we wouldn't release a product unless it were throughouly tested and approved not just by execs but also by the userbase we want to market to.

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