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	taktuk 2012-03-02 12:27 am UTC (link)
	(angry, drawn out rasp) What? (Wank begins) This is going to be Benedict XVI's legacy. This stuff, right here (Wank ends) (Reply to this)(Thread)

	chikane 2012-03-02 07:27 am UTC (link)
	That's not wank, that's reality. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	taktuk 2012-03-02 08:08 am UTC (link)
	Well, I don't want to offend liberal Catholics, so I warned at least. I'd have spoiler tagged if such was allowed. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	queencallipygos 2012-03-02 12:30 pm UTC (link)
	One of the most liberal Catholics I know refers to Benedict as "The Papist Rapist," so fret not. (The guy who says this also was almost a priest himself. Really interesting guy.) (Reply to this)(Parent)

queencallipygos
2012-03-02 07:23 pm UTC (link)

Actually: expounding a bit on Liberal Catholics and what may be pending:

I've read up some on the Jesuits, the order my friend was nearly going to join; the Jesuits are kind of bad-ass and always have been. The order was created in the 1600's as a sort of counter-attack against the Reformation. Jesuits have always been very much hands-on in terms of community service, tending towards being left-wing and liberal politically -- in the 1500's and 1600's, Jesuit missionaries in South America were setting up communities among the South American Indians that were practically communes, and were trying to shield them from Spanish colonialism. (Check out the movie The Mission - that's what it's about.) More recently, one of the biggest Vietnam war protestors was Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan. From what I understand from my friend, of the ten guys he was in seminary with, only one made it all the way to being a priest, and that guy also went on to law AND business school so he could start a non-profit inner-city boy's school that by all reports is doing really awesome.

And from what I understand, a fair number of Jesuits are good and pissed about the turn the Catholic Church is taking now - to the point that someone I know recently observed that "if the Jesuits all left the church entirely, I wouldn't be surprised." That'd be kind of a big deal, but -- of all of the Catholic religious orders out there, the Jesuits probably are most likely to take off.

tl;dr version: There are actually a ton of liberal Catholics out there who are probably saying much worse things about Pope Benedict than you did, and they are pissed off like whoa about some of the stuff going down in the faith now.

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spacelogic
2012-03-03 04:56 am UTC (link)

I go to a Jesuit university*, and while I'd be surprised if they left after all this time, I can believe they're upset -- I swear every week there's a "how to be an ally to the LGBT community" event being promoted all over the campus if there isn't a "hey, if you didn't get to go to prom because you're gay, we made you a prom to make up for it" one. Social justice is a huge Jesuit thing, all over the curriculum and really talked up; not caring when the church is participating in oppression would be really out of step with their values.

*the same one Gavin Newsom -- and for one year Jerry Brown -- went to, incidentally. Jesuit-educated types are trouble!

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pfeffermuse
2012-03-03 02:29 pm UTC (link)

Seconding much of what you said about the Jesuits, though the order does tend to be sexist overall.

I attended St. Francis Xavier Church in Manhattan when I was growing up, and had absolutely no idea how reactionary the RCC was until the elementary school brought in Dominican nuns, and when I attended a Dominican-run private high school.

Xavier, Judson Memorial Church (Baptist) and Riverside Church (Baptist) are probably the three most progressive churches in NYC, and even though I'm no longer Christian, I'd still heartily recommend them to anyone seeking a welcoming, non-judgmental place for Christian fellowship and worship.

I'm not sure I'd agree with you about the potential for a Jesuit-initiated schism during Benedict's papacy. From the insiders I know within the church, it'll probably depend more on who gets installed post-Benedict -- the front-runners appear to be far more reactionary than him. And depending on who it is, it may not even be the Jesuits who break with Rome. A lot of the reactionaries among the US catechumenate and charismatic movements are young and tend to skew as right-wing conservatives; if an African was installed as Pope (and there is a strong possibility of that), ~~their heads would explode~~ they'd probably manufacture a break with Rome to "protect the one, true faith".

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varkias
2012-03-02 01:15 am UTC (link)

Being a gay Christian is one of the hardest things in the world. Even once you've managed to reconcile both your faith and your sexuality as vital parts of your identity to yourself, and between you and God you're at peace with it, you believe that he accepts you as you are, you will forever be having to justify yourself and defend your identity to other people of faith.

Even if you refuse to do that, because it is so often pointless, you still have to deal with their judgement, their hostility, their rejection of your fundamental self and what you know to be right for you, and over and over you will be denied a place in the Church even if you know in your heart that your God makes you a part of it. I don't think there's a place within a hundred miles of me that wouldn't kick me out, and I refuse to pretend that I'm anything I'm not.

I am so, so sorry that she had to go through such a horrible example of this, in front of everyone she knew, her family and loved ones, at such a time when she was already grieving, I can't even imagine how much that must have hurt. That man deserves far more than to be removed, but I hope to God they do at least that.

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mmanurere
2012-03-05 01:49 am UTC (link)

It's not unique to Christianity. For instance, consider the attitudes and denominations -- there are the hardcore homophobic denominations, the "mainline" denominations ("your existence is a sin, but it's a sin like being mean, not a sin like murdering, so why can't you be happy that we're so non-judgmental?") and some progressive denominations that have taken their heads out of their asses (some UCC groups, rogue Catholic groups that ordain women, etc.). It's actually rather similar with Judaism; the hardcore right-wing Orthodox crowd, the islands of acceptance which make up part of the Reform and Reconstructionist archipelagos, and the majority insisting "Yes, we think you're bad, but we love you anyway so shut up and stop demanding basic respect and common human decency." Even in Buddhism we see the same pattern -- there are the "You're all fucked-up/sinners/products of bad behavior in past lives" orthodox crowd, the "Yes, you're bad for what you are, but most people are bad so as long as otherwise you're a saint we won't try to make you feel worse than anyone else" middle (e.g. the Dalai Lama; I'm straight-up paraphrasing him here), and the occasional not-full-of-shit lunatic fringe (some of the Pure Land and Nichiren groups, e.g., along with some fringe non-monastic Vajrayana groups).

So, yeah. Until straight people get their collective heads out of their asses and start following the examples provided by their occasional non-asshat fellow heterosexuals, deviating in any way from cis heterosexuality will be an uphill battle in any faith community.

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varkias
2012-03-05 02:31 am UTC (link)

No, you are right - I realised later that I should have said more generally maybe people of faith, but you can't edit comments on JF and my anxiety issues tend to prevent me from trying to delete and repost or whatever. I was having a fairly bad day to begin with so I probably shouldn't have commented at all when I was upset.

I went with Christian at the time I think mainly because in the circles I was raised in, Catholics are deliberately disrespected by refusing to consider them Christian at all, since they are evil heretics you know. :/ I wanted to avoid that, to me we're all serving the same God and his Christ, and the details are between us and him, but yeah. No matter what your faith, you're facing so much of the same prejudice, and it's all heartbreaking. No one should be prevented from following their beliefs in company with those of the same faith, and worshiping in the way they believe is right.

That's what freedom of religion is about. You get it, you should give it. You can't expect tolerance if you won't grant it to others.

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mneiai
2012-03-02 03:21 am UTC (link)

Uh, Catholicism-wise, it's not a sin to be a lesbian, it's a sin to have gay sex (the same way it is to have any sex that doesn't result in children *rolls eyes*). So, unless that priest got pictures of her and her partner doing the deed, how the hell could he say she was a sinner and not living in a chaste relationship? Ugh, and I can't believe he didn't finish up the funeral or find a replacement, that's horrible.

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	chikane 2012-03-02 07:28 am UTC (link)
	As if many catholics give a fuck, when it comes to being bigoted, they happily outdo doctrine. They've argued for pretty horrible things concerning gay people in Africa as well, including murder. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	cygnia 2012-03-02 07:01 pm UTC (link)
	I swear, I have to bite down my jaw sometimes when my (LAPSED!) Catholic husband bemoans about how "persecuted" Catholics are. And then they pull this sort of shit that's just as bigoted and abusive as the various fundie Dominionist Protestant sects' way of hate... (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	eleutheria 2012-03-03 07:55 am UTC (link)
	Some Catholic churches have been steeplejacked by Dominionists, actually. "Charismatic Catholic" is often a huge red flag of that. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	gardnerhill 2012-03-02 04:53 am UTC (link)
	"Step One: Start a campaign to beg Catholics to come back to the Church. "Step Two: Keep doing horrific shit like this. "Step Three: Scratch our mitered heads and wonder why no one's taking us up on our generous offer. "Repeat Steps One through Three. "..." "Profit!" (Reply to this)

	kylenne 2012-03-02 07:34 am UTC (link)
	Guessing a whole lot of hetero adulterers got communion no probs that day. (Reply to this)(Thread)

	mirhanda 2012-03-02 05:39 pm UTC (link)
	Only if the priest didn't know about it. Nor would a heterosexual couple who were living together have gotten communion if the priest knew about it. Neither my husband nor I can take communion because my husband and I have both been married before and we don't feel like bothering with divorces. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	mirhanda 2012-03-02 05:41 pm UTC (link)
	Can't edit. I mean bother with ANNULMENTS! We've both been divorced. We're not bigamists, haha! (Although that would also keep us from being able to receive communion, LOL) (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	ari_ 2012-03-02 06:52 pm UTC (link)
	really? here (granted, "here" is Vienna, Austria), my mother can get communion with no problem. She talked to her local priest about it, and since she has been living with my stepfather for over 25 years now, it's not a problem at all. But it does depend on the priest, however, she could simply switch churches. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	mirhanda 2012-03-02 06:54 pm UTC (link)
	It's definitely in violation of the church's teachings though. If that priest's bishop found out, he could get in trouble. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

ari_
2012-03-02 07:15 pm UTC (link)

but, that's *normal*. That you can.

...

At least, here it is. Granted, while Austria is a Roman Catholic country, we're also rather ... pragmatic about some of the aspects, and how they work with real life.

(we're also where the We Are Church movement spawned, a quick google found me an article describing that here: http://opentabernacle.wordpress.com/2011/11/09/occupy-the-church-austrias-catholic-rebellion-gathers-strength/#more-2946)

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	mneiai 2012-03-04 03:40 am UTC (link)
	My mother is my father's second wife and he certainly couldn't get a church annulment of the first marriage (given he had a kid and all lol), but he gets communion just fine in our church. No one has ever tried to stop him, even back when I was a kid. (We're in the US) (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	rosehiptea 2012-03-04 06:10 am UTC (link)
	You can theoretically get an annulment even if you have kids. I mean, if you say your father didn't I believe you! But I've heard of it. (Reply to this)(Parent)

pfeffermuse
2012-03-03 02:53 pm UTC (link)

I didn't know that.

My mom was a devout Catholic, and one of those few people who actually embodied the term "Christian". She and my father were divorced; the RCC wouldn't grant her an annulment. And she received communion until the day she died from priests who all knew about her divorce.

Hell, even the hardline, pre-Vatican II priest adored mom, and when she was in the hospital dying, he took the relic of St. Francis Xavier out of church and let her keep it in her hospital room. He was the priest I asked to say her funeral mass; Fr. O'Malley he was not.

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mirhanda
2012-03-03 05:26 pm UTC (link)

Was she remarried? It's perfectly ok for divorced people to receive communion if they haven't remarried.

Here's more info (from a pretty conservative site, EWTN) http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/communion_of_divorced_and_remarr.htm

I do disagree with the church on this issue, because Jesus Christ himself said that adultery was grounds for a divorce, so I think the church is completely wrong. But that's what they teach.

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	jun_motomiya17 2012-03-03 05:25 pm UTC (link)
	Yeah, my stepmom can't get communion either because even though her first marriage was annulled, my (non-Catholic) father's was not, and he won't do it. (...Which is good because my mom would not only never willingly give him one, but would never forgive him if he tried because of the implications of what that means in regards to myself and my sisters.) (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	mirhanda 2012-03-03 05:33 pm UTC (link)
	It is not true that an annulment makes the children of the marriage bastards, so that wouldn't be a worry. Here's an explanation of the church's doctrine about it: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Does_annulment_make_the_children_born_of_the_marriage_illegitimate (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	jun_motomiya17 2012-03-03 05:43 pm UTC (link)
	I don't think that's the part that would've made my mom angriest, although I know she didn't know that aspect. It's more that it'd be like saying we shouldn't have happened because the marriage itself shouldn't have happened, and one certainly wouldn't have happened without the other. (Reply to this)(Parent)

onetimeoffer
2012-03-22 12:02 am UTC (link)

There's something called a "white marriage" here in Poland (that's a literal translation, I don't know what the English equivalent is, although googling points to a slightly different definition, wherein the couple are married, have no sexual relations, and it is an acknowledged secret that one or both are gay - as per GCB).

It's when a divorced-and-remarried couple mutually agree to permanently abstain from sex and all kinds of marital relations. Basically, they live as brother and sister, although from what I've read, they're allowed to sleep together in one bed, but sex is out of the question. Once such an agreement is made (under the supervision of the parish priest), they can go to confession and receive communion (although there's often a "suggestion" that they go to church not in their own parish, so that their neighbors won't be ~scandalized by a couple they know to be divorced going to communion).

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	sandglass 2012-03-02 08:42 pm UTC (link)
	And divorcees. Just straight up statistically there have to be a lot of them, right? (Reply to this)(Parent)

	chikane 2012-03-02 07:52 am UTC (link)
	I wish this wasn't so common. I'm far from bashing every catholic (since I'm one myself, technically) but shit like this is why I sometimes want to. Pope Palpatine the XVI,5 - this one falls on your shoulders. That's what happens if you push back every minor progress and keep pushing forward all those people with ideas from 7 centuries ago. (Reply to this)

	sandglass 2012-03-02 08:47 pm UTC (link)
	I was in a good mood and told my mom I'd go to a new church with her (despite being atheist myself) until I found out it was Catholic. Thankfully the church has so many failings I was able to justify it fully to her. Great job, guys! (Reply to this)(Thread)

	sandglass 2012-03-02 08:48 pm UTC (link)
	By which I meant I didn't even have to bring up being gay or anything, since she's conservative and it makes her uncomfortable no matter how hard she tries, but the whole pedophilia sexism everything. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	tehrin 2012-03-03 08:05 am UTC (link)
	Not even that, but he LEFT the building when she was giving the eulogy and did not return for the burial or send another priest in his place. (Reply to this)

	frequentmouse 2012-03-03 08:32 pm UTC (link)
	The Bishop of Washington sent an apology to the woman (viz Lawrence O'Donnell Thursday night). (Reply to this)

A bit late, but...

tianxiaode
2012-03-09 04:16 am UTC (link)

http://johnshore.com/2012/02/29/father-no-communion-for-you-not-the-whole-story/

The priest may have been an ass, but the rest of the community? Not at all. Make sure to read to the end of the article. (Comments warning, as usual, although that blog is generally fairly trigger-free.)

Despite the loud cries of the asshat Christians in our society today, the quiet ones who do not judge and love wholeheartedly repeatedly renew my faith.

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