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	tiarlynn 2008-09-02 03:30 am UTC (link)
	1) I'm not sure this is really the community for a WoW-related rant, but rather reports of wanking that is decidedly not humorous. 2) You are overreacting, or at least picking something strange to focus on. The game is full of stuff like that; we either take it in the spirit it was undoubtedly intended and move on or stop playing. Just my $.02. (Reply to this)(Thread)

	plazmah 2008-09-02 03:46 am UTC (link)
	Re: #2... seriously, are you for real? (Reply to this)(Parent)

	esclaramonde 2008-09-02 03:59 am UTC (link)
	Are you seriously serious? (Reply to this)(Parent)

	undomielregina 2008-09-02 04:32 am UTC (link)
	hmm, you may be right, although if you look, a lot of the time the poster is linking to something with no more provocation than its mere existence. I figure I'll see a lot more posts like yours if I'm really out of line, and then I'll know better next time. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	doomsday 2008-09-02 05:26 am UTC (link)
	I dunno, I think your post fits the guidelines perfectly. Most of the stuff that's posted here isn't outright wank. That person needs to lurk moar. Lots moar. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	undomielregina 2008-09-02 05:37 am UTC (link)
	grin I'm pretty sure this is okay, but if there's one thing I've learned by lurking, it's never to get shirty over this sort of comment lest I pay for it later. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	tiarlynn 2008-09-02 05:48 am UTC (link)
	My comment wasn't meant to be shirty-baiting, and rereading it I definitely didn't explain myself well, so it's reworded below. I only make comments meant to bait shirty comments on ONTD. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	undomielregina 2008-09-02 05:57 am UTC (link)
	I didn't think you were. I was just saying that however I felt, I know that with even odds that trying to defend myself would end badly, it was best not to start down that road. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	spacelogic 2008-09-02 05:29 am UTC (link)
	Illogical. An offensive thing's offensiveness is not decreased by its being surrounded by other offensive things. On the contrary, it may be increased, as it becomes an indication of a trend towards offensiveness rather than merely an isolated incident. (Reply to this)(Parent)

tiarlynn
2008-09-02 05:45 am UTC (link)

OK, comment redux for bad wording and muddled meaning:

Yeah, I am serious; there are tons of instances like this in the game, and mostly I'm wondering why the OP is singling this one out. I agree they could be more sensitive in their 'ethnic' portrayals, of which the trolls are merely one example: dwarves, draenei, orcs, trolls, tauren, and several other instances all spring to mind as being pretty stereotypical portrayals of certain races and ethnicities.

It's one thing to bring up issues with all of these portrayals, but why just one? I'm not really PC at all and it's even occurred to me that they might have stepped over the line several times once in a while with this issue. I definitely could have worded the comment better, but it seems like something to take up in a letter to Blizzard if it's really bothering the OP (which while I'm sure Blizz doesn't mean to be malicious, would be valid on the part of the OP) rather then mentioning a single instance of a sort-of chronic recurrence in a comm that will only agree that this one example is distasteful.

Long story short since a stolen wallet and a bad day has caused my brain to melt: send a letter to Blizz voicing your distaste!

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undomielregina
2008-09-02 06:06 am UTC (link)

I mentioned the trolls here because they're my particular hotbutton. There're a bunch of other races I've got problems with (Orcs, Goblins and Tauren really strike me as the other highly problematic examples) but the trolls are so completely overt that they really, really bug me -- and actually, I know from experience that the way to win an argument about whether or not WoW is racist is to focus on them. They're the only race who apparently has the fewest redeeming features to cloud the issue.

Today included one occurrence that pushed the problem back into the forefront of my mind -- exacerbated by having no one else see that there was a problem, thus the post. I have considered e-mailing Blizzard, and I probably will once I figure out how to make it clear that the solution is not to let my guild-mate have his old name back. I think that if I write them, they are more likely to take that tack than to pay attention to anything I have to say, and that concerns me.

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	undomielregina 2008-09-02 06:08 am UTC (link)
	aaand it's 2 am and I need to L2edit /sigh They're the race that apparently has the fewest redeeming features to cloud the issue. (Reply to this)(Parent)

tiarlynn
2008-09-02 06:17 am UTC (link)

If it's a serious hot-button issue for you, you should definitely write them. I don't even think you need to mention your guildmate, since the issue isn't necessarily their hypocrisy but rather the fact that there's the reason the banned name is hypocritical at all. (Their name-banning system is pretty ridiculous anyway--if someone reports it, it's basically banned. My boyfriend had to rename his shaman, Thundernuts, to Thundernaughts.) Just mention that their portrayal of certain races concerns you, especially since it's so popular and influential, particularly among young people. You're a paying customer with an issue with their product, and I'm sure you're not the first person to have the complaint. I doubt it would get them to change the game suddenly, but you shouldn't let something that bothers you that much slide if you're able to do something about it in some way.

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	napalmnacey 2008-09-03 05:00 am UTC (link)
	I'm not really PC at all I get very wary of people when they say that. They tend to be the sort of people that get mad when you call them on a dumb and offensive joke. I'm not assuming you're one of those people, I'm just letting you know of the connotations one might have if you say that line. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

octavia
2008-09-03 12:23 pm UTC (link)

OT, but I've never understood what PC did to make it the designated punching bag for anyone who wants to say something that's, basically, offensive for a reason.

I say that having just come out of a discussion that went like this:

A: [says something offensive]
Bunch of people: [call them on it]
A: The lurkers support me in email!
Bunch of people: Douchebag!
A: OMG free speech is stifled by PC-ness! Censorship!

I find that when someone's declaring themselves not-PC or someone's talking about PC-ness as if it's something evil, it's usually the upbeat to that someone being a real asshole.

Not this case either, but too often.

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	napalmnacey 2008-09-03 01:09 pm UTC (link)
	It's a little too much like a woman saying "I'm not a feminist, but..." It's a precursor to the "Douche-bag" alarm. Doesn't mean the person IS a douche-bag, but it's an early warning sign that they MAY be a douche-bag. (Reply to this)(Parent)

pyratejenni
2008-09-03 05:28 pm UTC (link)

I get very wary of people when they say that.

I write them off. The definition of "politically correct" is using language that's pleasing to the people in power. Since Bill Clinton's been out of office for years, the OP isn't being PC at all.

tiarlynn is, with the "You're over-reacting to racism" schtick. All she needs to do is go on about how white men and Christians are so oppressed in the US, and she'd hit the trifecta.

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	napalmnacey 2008-09-03 05:49 pm UTC (link)
	Heh, well, I was just trying to be diplomatic. (And, completely OT, but I have been re-reading the Norse myths lately and your icon tickles me pink!) (Reply to this)(Parent)

	pyratejenni 2008-09-02 04:22 pm UTC (link)
	1) It doesn't have to be wanky to be here. 2) It's not your call if someone is overreacting or not. 3) It is, however, my call if you fit the "too stupid to be in my community" category. Right now, you're borderline. Just my $.02 (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	tiarlynn 2008-09-02 11:26 pm UTC (link)
	Stupid's pretty harsh; I reworded what I meant below and made sure to mention that I didn't intend for my comment to come off the way it did. There's not really any need for name-calling. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	sadisticferret 2008-09-03 06:51 pm UTC (link)
	...You're new here, ain'tcha? (Reply to this)(Parent)

iwanttobeasleep
2008-09-02 04:19 am UTC (link)

Wow. I don't think Blizzard is that bad for racism--the orcs may be loosely based off of Africans, but it's not really obvious and there's a lot to their background/culture, and the mostly white humans certainly aren't the good side--but they really need to have better vetting for that sort of thing.

WoWInsider just had the discussion where we realized there are a lot of races that only have males--who by canon should have females. And the all female races? Canonically all-female, and that's in addition to the canon all-male races. No bias there, mm.

Love the game, but I really wish they could be a bit more politically sensitive.

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undomielregina
2008-09-02 05:22 am UTC (link)

Love the game, but I really wish they could be a bit more politically sensitive.

I agree completely

I'm mostly appalled that the emote is in the game -- it's where my guild-mate got his name from -- despite the fact that they're aware enough to consider the phrase sufficiently offensive as to require him to rename the character.

Would you mind linking me to that WoWInsider thread? It sounds interesting.

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lyssa
2008-09-02 06:27 am UTC (link)

I wonder how much of it is the Warhammer influence. WoW actually started off as a spin-off of the Warhammer universe, I have heard, and Warhammer has not aged well in some regards. In fact, this gave the devs of the new Warhammer MMO lots of headaches in trying to both be true to source and trying not to be offensive to current day values.

But, yeah, the source material isn't the most enlightened, so I'm not surprised at the addition of aspects of it into the game world. I'm not thrilled with, but at least the majority of it is player-controlled. The co-opted cultures are also more from dances, voices, and flirts, and if you read lore carefully enough, these races have been exploited and driven from their native homes (night elves are dicks), and also warred against by the Alliance.

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	lyssa 2008-09-02 06:28 am UTC (link)
	Not that this excuses any of it, but at least there is more to them then "har har Jamaicans" I really don't know what to do with the topic =/ (Reply to this)(Parent)

iwanttobeasleep
2008-09-02 03:54 pm UTC (link)

It's here but I wouldn't particularly suggest going near the comments, which make up the bulk of the discussion. It was pretty much decided that WoW didn't have time to make female models for races such as the broken or the wretched (both variants of races with females, so there is no canon explanation), but that doesn't explain why there aren't female fel orcs (same model, different color!), particularly since the Orc culture doesn't seem particularly misogynistic about warriors. Someone on the WoW podcast pointed out that it was probably the result of bias, but his cohosts didn't really want the discussion.

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	arionhunter 2008-09-02 04:35 pm UTC (link)
	Personally, I think Blizzard's inclusion of the "witch doctor" in Diablo III is probably the more notably outright racist design they've created, given the white colonialist mindset it represents. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	twoiskewl 2008-09-02 11:54 am UTC (link)
	I AM SO GLAD somebody else is skeeved by it. The Tauren are my hot-spot -- Noble Savages AND only able to be saved/settle down once people from the east come cross the ocean? Bleh. I can't play one, seriously, so no druids for me :( My guildies think I'm being stupid too. (Reply to this)(Thread)

	tiasian 2008-09-02 01:16 pm UTC (link)
	Interesting. Do you think they needed to be "saved/settled down", or did they seem perfectly fine before other people came and gave them civilization? No, I'm not asking you if you actually think that - I assume you don't - just... they got along perfectly fine? Or, um, what? Which bunch came to "save" them anyway? (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	scifantasy 2008-09-02 01:49 pm UTC (link)
	Which bunch came to "save" them anyway? The orcs, interestingly. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	iwanttobeasleep 2008-09-02 03:41 pm UTC (link)
	It's not so much that they were civilized, the Taurens were driven from their homes and to near extinction by the Centaur. The Orcs came over and helped the Tauren beat the shit out the Centaur and regain their homeland, and together they formed the might Horde! The Orcs also helped out the Trolls, for that matter. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	scifantasy 2008-09-02 01:34 pm UTC (link)
	So, the jungle love is driving you mad, making you crazy? (Sorry. I do think you have a very valid point, but the pun just pole-vaulted into my brain.) (Reply to this)(Thread)

	undomielregina 2008-09-02 01:41 pm UTC (link)
	no problem, this may be unfunnybusiness, but some funny never hurt anything...besides, I loled. By the way, I'd be interested in meeting sometime if you were up for it, seeing as we're only a couple blocks from each other and all... (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	scifantasy 2008-09-02 01:47 pm UTC (link)
	nod We really should organize a JF NYU (jiff-nyoo?) meetup. I even think I may have an event, unless people are violently opposed to anime. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	undomielregina 2008-09-04 03:16 pm UTC (link)
	ooh, that looks awesome. We should do that. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	rosehiptea 2008-09-02 03:54 pm UTC (link)
	I'm glad I wasn't the only one who thought of the Steve Miller Band. That said, I think the OP definitely has a valid point also. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	undomielregina 2008-09-02 07:08 pm UTC (link)
	grin I'm pretty sure that's what the Blizz developers meant you to think of. It's just that with all the context I start wondering what they were thinking. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	rosehiptea 2008-09-02 07:10 pm UTC (link)
	Yeah, considering the context I totally see your point. It sounds like they're really engaging in uncomfortable stereotyping. (Reply to this)(Parent)

jkefka
2008-09-02 04:11 pm UTC (link)

Old news, this. The whole troll race is a racial/cultural stereotype. Most of them are, actually, in one way or another. Trolls happen to be one of the more touchy stereotypes, but the Tauren have some Native American stereotypes thrown in, the Dwarves are scottish....it goes on. I'm not disagreeing with you at all, but this doesn't exactly strike me as current. Bizzard's been doing this in the Warcraft series long before WoW, going back to the original Warcraft.

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	mercat 2008-09-03 12:20 am UTC (link)
	I'm not really familiar with WoW, so I'm sure I don't understand it all, but it sounds like a legit concern. ...Then again the Indiana Jones part of it sounds cool. =/ Then again that quote is just skeevy period. (Reply to this)

	caco 2008-09-03 06:29 pm UTC (link)
	Shortly after seeing this post, I was talking to my roommate (who plays WoW), and he was showing me a troll mask item he had picked up a few days ago. The flavor text for the mask specifies that one must think "savage troll thoughts" for the mask to work properly. (Reply to this)

pocketfox
2008-09-04 02:29 am UTC (link)

Funny, trolls are actually one of my favorite races in the game (along with blood elves, but that's just my elf fetish *cough*), and part of my like of them is the fact that yeah, they've got those cannabis-smokin', voodoo-castin', jungle-lovin', Jamaican-speakin' stereotypes. Does that make me a racist? Certainly not, but no doubt at least one person who reads my comment will think it does.

While I do agree that your objections have merit, I still think that you're over-reacting. If you really feel it will help, or at least make you feel you've done something productive, by all means email Blizzard. Personally, I recommend just avoiding whatever it is you find offensive. If you don't like the male troll /flirts, don't use them. If you find the entire mock Jamaican accent they have objectionable, there's an option to turn off emote sounds and error speech. Or just don't play trolls at all, if their whole concept turns you off.

However, I do see the black humor in Blizzard reprimanding someone for playing on one of their (Blizzard's) own jokes.

*cleans up after self*

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	kelmendi 2008-09-04 11:27 am UTC (link)
	Does that make me a racist? Certainly not, but no doubt at least one person who reads my comment will think it does. Well, far be it for me to disappoint you. (Reply to this)(Parent)