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	doomsday 2008-10-30 05:20 am UTC (link)
	That video made me feel physically ill. I wish I lived in one of those two states just so I could vote against those laws. (Reply to this)(Thread)

	hopefulnebula 2008-10-30 06:02 am UTC (link)
	I do live in one of those states, and Amendment 48 is even more disgusting than out-of-staters think. Needless to say, I've voted against it. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	altoidsaddict 2008-10-30 08:15 am UTC (link)
	Me too. Those Amendment 48 people came around Denver's St. Patrick's Day Parade using the staging area as an excuse to try to get signatures for their fucking petition, wearing their stupid pirated Dr. Seuss t-shirts, and when they came around to our float one of our group just started yelling at them for pretty much being bastards. It was awesome. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	isiscolo 2008-10-30 09:30 pm UTC (link)
	Me three. I've got a "no on 48" sign in my yard. It's a pretty horrible amendment. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	bienegold 2008-10-30 05:46 am UTC (link)
	I don't think I can bring myself to watch it. (Reply to this)(Thread)

	anarchicq 2008-10-30 05:57 am UTC (link)
	Same. What's the gist of it? (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	chaimonkey 2008-10-30 06:05 am UTC (link)
	Stories about how anti-abortion laws which give the fetus rights which supersede those of the mothers negatively affect the mothers in cases of c-section and miscarriage. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	notjo 2008-10-30 12:26 pm UTC (link)
	I think it includes the story of the woman who had refused a C-section and, when she went into labour, a police officer showed up and taped her legs together while a hearing was held to determine if she would be legally allowed to give birth vaginally. But gosh, these laws won't harm women! (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	bienegold 2008-10-31 02:21 am UTC (link)
	WHAT THE FUCKING FUCK. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	telegramsam 2008-10-31 01:28 pm UTC (link)
	And that sheep-fucker didn't get arrested for ASSUALT? I want to kill something now. (Reply to this)(Parent)

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lexingmouse3, 2008-10-31 04:14 pm UTC

	darsynia 2008-10-30 12:35 pm UTC (link)
	There was also a story from the same state I live in where a woman who was 25 weeks pregnant became dangerously ill, and against her wishes, the hospital went to court to force a C-section to try to save the child's life. They won, and the mother and child both died. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

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lyssa, 2008-10-30 08:56 pm UTC

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darsynia, 2008-10-30 09:56 pm UTC

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lyssa, 2008-10-31 12:31 am UTC

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telegramsam, 2008-10-31 01:30 pm UTC

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darsynia, 2008-10-31 06:05 pm UTC

	mistal 2008-10-30 05:09 pm UTC (link)
	My "favorite" (as in one of the most disgusting and terrible) was the woman that one of her twin was stillborn and she got arrested and accused of murder base on the claim that "by refusing to have a C-section 2 week prior, she was responsible for the stillbirth." (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

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plazmah, 2008-10-30 06:09 pm UTC

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chaimonkey, 2008-10-30 06:16 pm UTC

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hallidae, 2008-10-30 06:46 pm UTC

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bandit, 2008-10-31 03:58 am UTC

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ladybug218, 2008-10-31 07:15 pm UTC

	ijemanja 2008-10-30 06:39 am UTC (link)
	It scared the crap out of me and I don't even live in the US. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	bemysty 2008-10-30 08:14 am UTC (link)
	Holy. Fuck. I am so very very glad I don't even live near the US. (Reply to this)(Thread)

	rhiannonmr 2008-10-30 10:16 am UTC (link)
	Makes me glad I had a tubal ligation yrs ago. They glorify the fetus but once it's born they don't give a damn what happens to it. Some right to life, huh? (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	sneer 2008-10-30 03:57 pm UTC (link)
	Well, life ends at birth, don't you know. ...baaaaaaaaarf (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

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rhiannonmr, 2008-10-30 08:02 pm UTC

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sneer, 2008-10-30 08:37 pm UTC

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rhiannonmr, 2008-10-30 10:05 pm UTC

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warrioreowyn, 2008-10-31 03:07 am UTC

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sneer, 2008-10-31 03:26 am UTC

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warrioreowyn, 2008-10-31 05:43 am UTC

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chibikaijuu, 2008-10-31 03:38 pm UTC

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warrioreowyn, 2008-10-31 04:06 pm UTC

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funwithrage, 2008-10-31 06:42 pm UTC

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warrioreowyn, 2008-11-01 02:43 am UTC

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mmanurere, 2008-10-31 07:48 am UTC

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warrioreowyn, 2008-10-31 04:09 pm UTC

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cat_mcdougall, 2008-10-30 10:37 pm UTC

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rhiannonmr, 2008-10-31 12:11 am UTC

darsynia
2008-10-30 12:32 pm UTC (link)

I'm 2 months pregnant and I live in Pennsylvania. I have to say that... I never realized how pro-choice I was until I became pregnant--and this is a completely planned pregnancy. I've been 'morning' sick non-stop since my fifth week (all day, every day), and the idea that someone could be put through this involuntarily is horrifying, no matter what the situation, whether it's a criminal act on one end of the spectrum or an unwise decision about contraception on the other! Add on top of that the concept that even before my baby had a heartbeat, its life was considered more important than my own is just disgusting. Do not want is an understatement, here.

Miscarriages (I had one last April) are hard enough without the possibility of being blamed for them. I know two people personally who gave birth to twins, and both of them lost one of the twins, one before their birth, and one after, to a congenital condition. I may be a catastrophist, but all I can do is think about the other ways these laws could be misinterpreted. Could a mother found to be doing drugs or drinking while pregnant be prosecuted for child endangerment? What about a woman with a terminal disease--if she becomes accidentally pregnant, could she be found guilty for conceiving a child who has absolutely no chance of coming to term?

I am not a husk inside which a precious human being is feeding and becoming stronger. This is a partnership.

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aristaea
2008-10-30 01:27 pm UTC (link)

Could a mother found to be doing drugs or drinking while pregnant be prosecuted for child endangerment?

SVU tells me yes.

In that kind of situation, I'm inclined to be on the side of courts. If a woman chooses to have a baby, but then also chooses to engage in risky behavior that can have damaging, long-lasting effects on the baby, then she should be culpable for child endangerment. If she wants the baby, she shouldn't be drinking in large amounts, because of the risk of fetal alcohol syndrome. She shouldn't be using drugs, because the child could be born an addict, requiring expensive medical care and with potential brain damage. Someone choosing to put their baby at risk, after having decided to have a baby, runs the risk of being prosecuted for it. And society has a vested interest in preventing something that is wholly preventable.

It's a really fine line, though, because that's the same sort of reasoning for forced c-sections. I think those are over the line because they're a gross violation of an individual's body, whereas getting an injunction to prevent a woman from drinking or doing drugs is not really harmful or invasive in and of itself. But IANAL, so I don't know how a law could be constructed to protect the mother, while also preventing that kind of behavior.

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	snarkhunter 2008-10-30 03:59 pm UTC (link)
	But where do you draw the line? Women don't always know they're pregnant, which is one reason why the CDC went to that godawful "pre-pregnant" nonsense. If a woman who was doing drugs early in her pregnancy stopped doing them when she found out she was pregnant, under such laws she would still be culpable. So. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

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funwithrage, 2008-10-30 04:09 pm UTC

	ariadne484 2008-10-30 04:13 pm UTC (link)
	While pregnant, a friend of mine was prescribed a bottle of Guinness a week as a nutritional supplement and antiemetic. According to your reasoning, she and her doctor should be in jail. Fortunately, she lives in another country, and after watching that video I'm inclined to ask her if she has a spare room. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

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luxshine, 2008-10-30 05:57 pm UTC

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chaimonkey, 2008-10-30 06:15 pm UTC

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aristaea, 2008-10-31 10:55 am UTC

darsynia
2008-10-30 04:19 pm UTC (link)

Interestingly, after I'd eaten breakfast and come back from class, I read my comment and can definitely see the court's side of that particular postulation. I'm reminded of the image of a heavily pregnant woman in her front yard, smoking, with the caption of: 'Pregnant Woman Concerned That Roadwork Will Harm Her Unborn Child.' She'd complained that the jackhammers were so loud it was a detriment to her pregnancy--while she hadn't quit smoking.

I guess what I'm in some ways worried about is more rare and definitely more complex, though, when I think about it. Stuff like, if a child is born and they have some mental retardation, can the mother's behavior while pregnant be looked at as part of the cause, and can she be liable for it? Studies have shown that certain behaviors definitely impact the child's life, and while yes, I definitely see the arguments that there are things the mother should not do, it's still a scary thought, given that there's not necessarily a way to prove cause and effect.

What I was thinking with the drinking or drugs thing was more along the lines of early in a pregnancy, when the woman might not yet know--the idea that every woman should treat her body as pre-pregnant no matter what precautions she's taking against pregnancy, because those precautions are not as foolproof as abstinence. However, I'm always the type to think about the absolute worst-case scenario that usually involves a level of unfairness that's unprecedented. At least, I would hope it is.

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(no subject) - tree, 2008-10-30 07:06 pm UTC

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aristaea, 2008-10-31 11:12 am UTC

iwanttobeasleep
2008-10-30 05:32 pm UTC (link)

What worries me about drug laws is that they are in places that would hope to ban abortion. If that happens, an addict would have no choice but to undergo the painful process of quitting (and god forbid they decide that the chemical supplements to help people quit are too harmful), with likely little or no help from the state, and be arrested if/when they fail. And in the places where abortion is legal, it could be the question between aborting a child that you do want (assuming you slipped up and could be charged, or you're afraid you will, as most recovering addicts do, slip up) and getting arrested.

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caito
2008-10-31 07:24 am UTC (link)

I have a friend who miscarried, and it was a very painful experience for her. A year later, another friend of hers got knocked up (not a mutual friend), and instead of seeking an abortion, simply engaged in even more extreme and reckless behavior than usual to try and induce a miscarriage - more drinking, more drugs, some self-inflicted injuries.

All I could think of was, whoa, if she doesn't miscarry, she's going to have a lot to answer for in terms of what she'd done to the baby.

(Another reason to be pro-choice: so that people don't have to resort to these methods to end a pregnancy out of desperation or something. The people who do these things when abortion is a viable option are pretty heinous, though.)

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	caco 2008-10-31 02:09 am UTC (link)
	Ugh. Every day, I hate people a little bit more. (Reply to this)

	kylenne 2008-10-31 03:06 pm UTC (link)
	This should prove once and for all that anti-choice measures have nothing to do with "saving babies" and everything to do with controlling women's bodies. (Reply to this)