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	aoibhe 2009-03-05 05:16 pm UTC (link)
	This rebuttal to Bear's post is made of gorgeously eloquent win. (Reply to this)(Thread)

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goblin, 2009-03-05 05:21 pm UTC

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lady_ganesh, 2009-03-05 07:56 pm UTC

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persona, 2009-03-05 08:38 pm UTC

	goblin 2009-03-05 05:19 pm UTC (link)
	I'm beginning to think there really is some sort of Grand Prize of Fail that they're all gunning for. Is it your very own velociraptor, I wonder? (Reply to this)

	ariadne484 2009-03-05 05:24 pm UTC (link)
	From the moment I first saw the "taking one for the team" bit I knew she'd never accepted Avalon Willow's critique after all. I wish I were surprised to see this, rather than merely gutpunched. (Reply to this)(Thread)

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arionhunter, 2009-03-05 05:29 pm UTC

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shark, 2009-03-05 06:13 pm UTC

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rikiki, 2009-03-05 08:34 pm UTC

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vito_excalibur, 2009-03-05 08:36 pm UTC

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shark, 2009-03-05 09:24 pm UTC

	ellensmithee 2009-03-05 05:47 pm UTC (link)
	Ack, New Amsterdam is up next on my TBR pile next to my bed - will this link make me not to want to have anything to do with her? ;-) (Reply to this)(Thread)

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shark, 2009-03-05 06:14 pm UTC

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damnedfallacy, 2009-03-05 11:29 pm UTC

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rainkatt, 2009-03-06 03:32 am UTC

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jupiterpluvius, 2009-03-09 05:07 pm UTC

	jkefka 2009-03-05 06:06 pm UTC (link)
	This is rapidly turning into a Katamari Clusterfuck of Fail. As more people get rolled into it, there will be inevitably more fail. Right up until Arthur C. Clarke's zombie rises from the grave to lay the smackdown on everyone. ...Royal RAINBOW (Reply to this)(Thread)

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vito_excalibur, 2009-03-05 08:37 pm UTC

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bobafeis, 2009-03-05 08:42 pm UTC

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deliciouschaos, 2009-03-06 12:06 am UTC

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vito_excalibur, 2009-03-06 12:41 am UTC

	shark 2009-03-05 06:11 pm UTC (link)
	No one told these people that they don't get to come into fandom space and set the terms of fandom discussion, did they? (Reply to this)(Thread)

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bigbigtruck, 2009-03-05 06:24 pm UTC

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shark, 2009-03-05 06:26 pm UTC

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lysana, 2009-03-06 12:08 am UTC

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eleutheria, 2009-03-06 01:46 am UTC

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drich, 2009-03-06 02:36 am UTC

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glossing2, 2009-03-05 11:43 pm UTC

	deliciouschaos 2009-03-05 06:25 pm UTC (link)
	Goddamnit, I hate losing all respect for people who I thought were cool, once. (Reply to this)

	esclaramonde 2009-03-05 06:29 pm UTC (link)
	If she'd just told off her stupid friends however many weeks ago, we could have been spared. :( (Reply to this)(Thread)

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sistercoyote, 2009-03-05 08:47 pm UTC

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white_serpent, 2009-03-05 08:54 pm UTC

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sistercoyote, 2009-03-05 09:12 pm UTC

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esclaramonde, 2009-03-05 09:43 pm UTC

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sistercoyote, 2009-03-05 11:00 pm UTC

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sgaana, 2009-03-05 10:41 pm UTC

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esclaramonde, 2009-03-05 10:43 pm UTC

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sgaana, 2009-03-05 10:52 pm UTC

	blue_penguin 2009-03-05 06:32 pm UTC (link)
	... man, I was reading along going "huh, this isn't as bad as I'd thought it would be" until I got to the part about how she was trying to make it a Learning Experience, and then I headdesked and stopped reading. (Reply to this)(Thread)

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zing_och, 2009-03-05 07:30 pm UTC

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rikiki, 2009-03-05 08:36 pm UTC

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aoibhe, 2009-03-05 10:04 pm UTC

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snarkhunter, 2009-03-05 10:11 pm UTC

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brown_betty, 2009-03-06 07:29 am UTC

	bof 2009-03-05 06:47 pm UTC (link)
	Now doesn't she have her head deep up in her ass. (Reply to this)

*flails*

cirisse
2009-03-05 06:49 pm UTC (link)

I tried in every way I knew how to mediate, to explain, to teach
...to learn???

And I've gotten enough scared, supportive emails and anonymous comments from people who are cowed that I think it's time to put on my big girl pants and stand up.

The 'lurkers support me in email's' cliche. Check.

It's my fault because I accepted criticism of my book that I knew to be untrue, that I knew to be based on a shallow and partial reading (a reading of the first chapter of a 160,000-word novel), because I felt it was important to serve as an example of how to engage dialogue on unconscious institutional racism.

I have no words for this fuckery.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

Re: *flails* -

beachlass, 2009-03-05 07:51 pm UTC

	solesakuma 2009-03-05 07:05 pm UTC (link)
	Wow. It's like... so clueless and condescending and. Agh. Are these people never going to stop? (Reply to this)(Thread)

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lady_ganesh, 2009-03-05 07:59 pm UTC

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vito_excalibur, 2009-03-05 08:39 pm UTC

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lysana, 2009-03-06 12:12 am UTC

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eleutheria, 2009-03-06 02:03 am UTC

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brown_betty, 2009-03-06 07:31 am UTC

	ayezur 2009-03-05 07:48 pm UTC (link)
	I... I just realized I have no idea what's going on. Can someone give me a one-paragraph summary or a link to a wank report? (Reply to this)(Thread)

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beachlass, 2009-03-05 07:52 pm UTC

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beachlass, 2009-03-05 11:47 pm UTC

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beachlass, 2009-03-06 05:26 am UTC

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deliciouschaos, 2009-03-05 11:42 pm UTC

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chibikaijuu, 2009-03-06 10:33 am UTC

where it all began... -

squeakytoy, 2009-03-07 01:47 am UTC

white_serpent
2009-03-05 08:53 pm UTC (link)

She can decide all she wants that a criticism isn't valid. It may or may not be. If she decides it's valid, she can change her behavior. If she decides it isn't, she would be well-advised to simply say, "Thank you for your comment" (if it's addressed to her directly) or to ignore it entirely (if it isn't).

Pretending to take it as valid criticism, talking extensively about it, but making it quietly clear she doesn't take it seriously is offensive and condescending. It's also unprofessional.

Of course, it's also not surprising.

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pipssister, 2009-03-05 09:12 pm UTC

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pipssister, 2009-03-05 09:23 pm UTC

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funwithrage, 2009-03-05 11:16 pm UTC

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vito_excalibur, 2009-03-06 12:44 am UTC

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cleolinda, 2009-03-05 09:13 pm UTC

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esclaramonde, 2009-03-05 09:50 pm UTC

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brown_betty, 2009-03-06 07:33 am UTC

	atreyu 2009-03-05 10:03 pm UTC (link)
	After this and Robin McKinley's asinine comment about Obama looking like a white guy with a tan, I just want to scream at any other author I actually to stop talking period. Then again, if they're going to be thoughtless, arrogant fools, I'd rather avoid them period. (Reply to this)(Thread)

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lady_ganesh, 2009-03-05 10:24 pm UTC

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atreyu, 2009-03-06 02:15 am UTC

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deliciouschaos, 2009-03-05 11:45 pm UTC

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atreyu, 2009-03-06 01:11 am UTC

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octopedingenue, 2009-03-09 02:26 am UTC

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funwithrage, 2009-03-06 06:08 pm UTC

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atreyu, 2009-03-06 08:03 pm UTC

snarkhunter
2009-03-05 10:16 pm UTC (link)

Before I comment on the racism FAIL, can I just ask:

All-out attack, goalpost-shifting, threats, harassment, "outing" the opposition, and continuing to kick people who have apologized and withdrawn are not those means.

And yes, both sides are guilty of those actions. Equally guilty.

When, exactly, did the antiracism side (the Rebel Alliance?) "out" someone? And I can't say I've seen a lot of threats or kicking, really.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

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lady_ganesh, 2009-03-05 10:22 pm UTC

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snarkhunter, 2009-03-05 10:26 pm UTC

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lady_ganesh, 2009-03-05 10:28 pm UTC

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deliciouschaos, 2009-03-05 11:45 pm UTC

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kalakagatha, 2009-03-06 01:32 am UTC

snarkhunter
2009-03-05 10:26 pm UTC (link)

You know, there was a lot of fail in that post.

But I do think she has one itty-bitty point, buried in the middle there. That sometimes works by writers of color (or women writers or queer writers) might also contain unexamined or unintentional or internalized expressions of racist or misogynistic or homophobic or colonialist rhetoric/imagery. And that we shouldn't let those issues slide because the writer belongs to a non-dominant group. (It's the part where she's talking about some book I've never heard of by some guy I've never heard of.)

However, I fail to see what that has to do with the rest of her post, which seems to me to say, "Yeah, whatevs. I totes don't need to talk about this or hear about it. I iz oppressed, yo."

(Or, in her terms, 'tried to be a good cooperative white author, and listen to criticism from a person of color with open ears.' Gosh. That must be so HARD. So much harder than trying to get people to listen to you and take you seriously.)

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lady_ganesh, 2009-03-05 10:30 pm UTC

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snarkhunter, 2009-03-05 10:33 pm UTC

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lady_ganesh, 2009-03-06 02:03 am UTC

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vito_excalibur, 2009-03-05 10:35 pm UTC

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lady_ganesh, 2009-03-05 11:03 pm UTC

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octopedingenue, 2009-03-09 02:38 am UTC

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lady_ganesh, 2009-03-09 02:51 am UTC

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vito_excalibur, 2009-03-06 12:46 am UTC

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brown_betty, 2009-03-06 07:45 am UTC

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kelmendi, 2009-03-10 12:05 am UTC

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frequentmouse, 2009-03-06 01:42 am UTC

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snarkhunter, 2009-03-06 02:32 am UTC

proof we are living in an absurdist comedy -

beachlass, 2009-03-06 05:43 am UTC

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sgaana, 2009-03-05 10:50 pm UTC

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snarkhunter, 2009-03-05 10:51 pm UTC

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zing_och, 2009-03-06 02:35 pm UTC

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deliciouschaos, 2009-03-05 11:57 pm UTC

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snarkhunter, 2009-03-06 02:33 am UTC

	glossing2 2009-03-05 11:54 pm UTC (link)
	I don't know what grates and nauseates more, her faux-regret at "trying to listen", her ridiculous "I will not be silenced!" (...by whom. exact;u?), or the revolting condescension dripping from every word. Oh, wait. No, it's her bullshit racist, privileged fuckery that's the worst. (Reply to this)(Thread)

ftw -

goblin, 2009-03-06 01:14 am UTC

	ereshkigal 2009-03-06 01:51 am UTC (link)
	I expect better from people who are supposedly writing about the future and/or expanding upon the imagination. Instead, I find myself marking off a rather substantial swath of future book purchases. These people won't be seeing a single cent of my money, nor my family's. No one had to call for a boycott, they did that all on their own. (Reply to this)(Thread)

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lady_ganesh, 2009-03-06 02:02 am UTC

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kalakagatha, 2009-03-06 02:59 am UTC

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iamnotyourmuse, 2009-03-06 05:45 am UTC

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iamnotyourmuse, 2009-03-06 06:09 pm UTC

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funwithrage, 2009-03-06 08:11 pm UTC

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iamnotyourmuse, 2009-03-06 08:17 pm UTC

	xero_sky 2009-03-06 04:46 am UTC (link)
	Heh. And I just finished New Amsterdam this morning, too. Not a bad book, but not outstanding, either. A vampire on a zeppelin, omg! Yay for homoerotic vampires and Nikola Tesla. Whatever. ... I have no comment on the wank, since both sides have long since irritated me past the point of caring what they have to say. (Reply to this)(Thread)

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ellensmithee, 2009-03-06 09:18 am UTC

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sistercoyote, 2009-03-06 11:52 pm UTC

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lady_jafaria, 2009-03-12 04:32 pm UTC

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	lexingmouse3 2009-03-06 07:10 am UTC (link)
	I continue to be amazed at their ability just not to get it. (Reply to this)

ruuger
2009-03-06 09:20 am UTC (link)

Does anyone know if someone has written a write-up of this, explaning what these writers did wrong (aside from being asshats), that uses very simple words even a child would understand? Because I have people people who, no matter how I try to explain, fail to understand why people are being such meanies towards Bear, Shetterly & co.

Also, does anyone happen to have a link to that post which explains that institutional racism using an analogy of a co-worker who keeps bringing chocolate cake to work?

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lady_ganesh, 2009-03-06 03:32 pm UTC

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ruuger, 2009-03-12 12:13 pm UTC

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soupspooks, 2009-03-06 10:40 pm UTC

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ruuger, 2009-03-12 12:17 pm UTC

	looking_glass 2009-03-06 02:50 pm UTC (link)
	Has anyone compiled a list of Authors to Read out of this mess? I think I'm doing pretty well with my Authors to Avoid list, but the non-fail list is looking a bit thin. (Reply to this)(Thread)