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	tachikoma01 2009-03-08 11:16 pm UTC (link)
	I also agree that the outing was completely uncalled for. And I do care about racism in the sci-fi community, especially when it prevents the advancement of authors/artists of minorities. But I kind of feel like... both sides have made such asses of themselves at this point that any legitimate points about racism have been lost in the butt-hattery. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

tachikoma01
2009-03-08 11:52 pm UTC (link)

[Which is to say, I AGREE that the discussion of racism aspect needs to be decoupled from the outing. We need to talk about racism in fandom, but most of what people are talking about is specifically about the outing, and not what lead up to it. Which I'm sure is even more frustrating for people who do want to talk about racism in fandom, because the debate has been sidelined by the outing of one specific person, and the larger issue has kind of been lost.]

By no means has a legitimate point been invalidated by ass hatting, but the discussion needs to happen separate from the ass hatting because that's all people coming from outside the debate will see. Like how news footage of a peaceful 1,000 person protest will focus on the two people who set fire to a dumpster during the otherwise safe event.

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lab
2009-03-09 12:21 pm UTC (link)

The thing is, though, that the outing is not a random, isolated outburst of asshattery, but was deployed as a method to silence

coffeeandink and others (if you dig around in

rydra_wong's massive linkspam around these days, you'll see many posts by fen of color analysing and speaking about the importance of anonymity, the dangers to their communities if their fannish identity were connected to their RL ones and how the outing is an adapation of a long-standing method to silence discussions of racism).

I think one has to see the outing in the context of the discussion - why c&i was outed, by whom she was outed and for what reasons - and not let the perpetrators off the hook that easily, by saying "oh, they're just asshats." Of course they're asshats - and they outed someone because they're asshats with an intent, if that makes sense.

and the larger issue has kind of been lost.

I'm not sure I agree with that one --- while the debate has steered quite far away from its origins (There are some good summaries here),

verb_noire, for instance, has been quite a focal point of positive energy, support and awesome. Also, going by

rydra_wong's linkspam, the discussion has moved away from the outing quite a bit by now.

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	scifantasy 2009-03-09 02:46 pm UTC (link)
	the larger issue has kind of been lost. Which is the point of the fight_derailing community: to focus the debate back on the larger issue. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	julesnoctambule 2009-03-09 01:09 am UTC (link)
	There can come a point where pretty much everyone on either side of an issue starts to suck, really. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	jupiterpluvius 2009-03-09 05:06 pm UTC (link)
	THAT HAS NOT HAPPENED IN THIS CASE. And you don't know that, because you haven't been keeping up. Which is fine. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	julesnoctambule 2009-03-09 07:08 pm UTC (link)
	Which would be why I said 'of an issue', not 'of this issue'. Not that you care. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	eleutheria 2009-03-09 03:36 am UTC (link)
	You know, I keep hearing people saying "both sides have made asses of themselves" and similar comments, but I have yet to see anyone say exactly how the antiracist people have "made asses of themselves". Example, please? (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	microclimate 2009-03-09 05:47 pm UTC (link)
	Well, the entire YOU'RE EITHER 100% WITH US OR YOU'RE AGAINST US AND YOU FAIL attitude is off-putting to some (including me). (Reply to this)(Parent)

chikane
2009-03-09 08:16 pm UTC (link)

How about http://www.journalfen.net/community/unfunnybusiness/90615.html?thread=4580087#t4580087

Several replies to julesnoctambule are practically oozing in concentrated failure.

'not getting involved in this' is not saying that 'racism is okay', 'bigotry is okay' or that people 'deserve bigotry because they acted some way'.

I'm as outraged as most people about these 'authors' using scare tactics to silence discussions about racism(because that is all the authors are doing - it's not an argument, they just are trying to scare their opponents into silence), but that in no way justifies attacking people who are not 'supportive enough'.

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funwithrage
2009-03-09 09:45 pm UTC (link)

That said...if you're not getting involved in something, but you nonetheless feel compelled to state publicly, on a post devoted to that thing, that you're not getting involved? You're kind of asking for it.

I mean, if she hadn't said anything, I don't think anyone involved would have made snippy posts about how people in general or julesnoctambule in specific aren't speaking up and how horrible and unsupportive they are because of that. I can't speak for anyone involved, but I don't think they'd have cared. I've been all kinds of Over There during this, mostly because I can't think of a damn thing to say that people haven't said better already, and I haven't gotten any feeling that people expected me to state my thoughts or lack thereof.

And while "So racism is okay, then?" struck me as a little over the top, "I'm totally staying out of this in all ways whatsoever" struck me as *wicked* passive-aggressive.

/thoughts on yaoi

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	veleda_k 2009-03-10 05:32 am UTC (link)
	That said...if you're not getting involved in something, but you nonetheless feel compelled to state publicly, on a post devoted to that thing, that you're not getting involved? You're kind of asking for it. Yes, exactly. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	ariadne484 2009-03-10 04:21 pm UTC (link)
	Yes, this. To not be involved just... don't be involved. Making a Statement about why a project isn't worth being involved with is not a neutral act. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	eleutheria 2009-03-09 10:17 pm UTC (link)
	And while "So racism is okay, then?" struck me as a little over the top, "I'm totally staying out of this in all ways whatsoever" struck me as wicked* passive-aggressive.* What funwithrage said. The whole yawning, I can't be arsed to give a fuck kind of attitude is obnoxious in its own right, IMO. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	kittikattie 2009-03-10 12:30 am UTC (link)
	It must be nice to not give a fuck. After this whole mess, I don't think I'm going to be touching 90% of fantasy for a long fucking time. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	damisi 2009-03-10 03:06 pm UTC (link)
	Yes! If you don't care, then why'd you comment? (Reply to this)(Parent)

	sandglass 2009-03-10 09:13 am UTC (link)
	Maybe it was just me, but it really sounded like tachikoma01 was talking about coffeeandink and her supporters, not one person on JF who backed off rather quickly. And anybody who is saying coffeeandink is failing in this is, frankly, failing. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

tachikoma01
2009-03-10 04:58 pm UTC (link)

Nope, that wasn't my intent at all.

My points:
1. I can't blame people for not wanting to follow this thing, because it's so huge and over-arching. That doesn't make them racist.

2. I think that the whole thing with coffeeandink has taken the discussion from "racism in fandom" to "OMG COFFEANDINK WAS OUTED", so people aren't *talking* about racism anymore, just the outing. And that's the problem with talking about racism- people who just want to pretend it isn't there will take any opportunity they can get to change the subject.

3. I've agreed multiple times in other replies that the outing was bastardly, and said I'd do whatever I reasonably *could* to help reverse it. I don't want to just sit around randomly seething in rage though, going "darn those bastards" and shaking my fist at the sky if there's something reasonable I could actually be doing to *help*.

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