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for unfunny_fandom: Finally: Inception wank!
(Anonymous)
2010-10-19 04:34 pm UTC (link)

Is it a wank within a wank within a wank?

halflinen writes a pretty long fanfic (http://halflinen.livejournal.com/37351.html)

the_moonmoth finds an exchange in the fic racist and problematic (http://the-moonmoth.livejournal.com/122318.html)

godofwine disagrees (http://godofwine.livejournal.com/99593.html)

bookshop decides to school

godofwine on racism, telling

godofwine that "you may have the privilege of not being harmed or offended by images of racism in fandom that someone else of minority status *does not have*" and further explains that she's coming from "that cultural context of having experienced/witnessed Racefail." (http://godofwine.livejournal.com/99593.html?thread=918025#t918025)

godofwine is an Asian living in the US.

fail_fandom anon has a lot of fun (http://community.livejournal.com/fail_fandomanon/3573.html?thread=15366389#t15366389)

(Reply to this)(Thread)

	Re: for unfunny_fandom: Finally: Inception wank! (Anonymous) 2010-10-19 05:49 pm UTC (link)
	Not often you see an own goal scored so cleanly. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	Re: for unfunny_fandom: Finally: Inception wank! (Anonymous) 2010-10-19 06:18 pm UTC (link)
	Especially with the OP saying IN HER POST that she was Asian. Nice work, Aja! (Reply to this)(Parent)

	Re: for unfunny_fandom: Finally: Inception wank! (Anonymous) 2010-10-19 06:09 pm UTC (link)
	Oh, and more white people going, "if POC disagree with us, it's internalised racism on their part" over at http://rivier.livejournal.com/706816.html (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

qq
(Anonymous)
2010-10-19 08:52 pm UTC (link)

A lot of people agreeing to that aren't white. I agree with it, and I'm not white. The bad ones in that posting are the anons in a frenzy, who try to tell PoC what they are allowed to say. Observe the exchange with miera_c.

Stop using the "A POC said it's okay, so it's not racist" bullshit. It's not cute, it's offensive, and blatantly obvious derailing to boot. People see through it. You aren't being clever here. People try the same shit all the time. Can't you at least be original?

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Re: qq
(Anonymous)
2010-10-20 02:13 am UTC (link)

Since when is it "derailing" to have an opposing view? Are you actually saying that POC who disagree with the_moonmoth's opinion don't have the right to express there's? You don't think it's more than a little problematic to dismiss every POC who doesn't find something offensive as being too dim to understand what racism really is? Why can't it be ok for two POC to have differing opinions about something and for both to be able to express their views without people accusing them of bullying and derailing?

(Reply to this)(Parent)

Re: qq
(Anonymous)
2010-10-20 12:01 pm UTC (link)

OP here, who also happens to be PoC. I am not trying to be cute or clever here. What I find incredibly problematic is all these white people telling us any opposing view is obviously internalised racism, we don't really understand racism, we're just too dumb/blinded/whatever to see that people are being really racist to us and we should be outraged! You, a PoC, think the fic snippet was racist. Other PoC don't and explain why they do. Why is this derailing and offensive? Why are PoCs explaining their points of view "bullshit"?

(Reply to this)(Parent)

	Re: qq (Anonymous) 2010-10-20 12:05 pm UTC (link)
	And yes, I know miera_c is black. Doesn't change the fact that people don't seem to allow for PoC's to have a different point of view, just dismiss it summarily out of hand when it doesn't agree with their own. (Reply to this)(Parent)

(Anonymous)
2010-10-19 08:38 pm UTC (link)

Please change the anti-aja stuff to less nonsensical things. I'd love to have some proper Aja wank.
But... Her pointing out that hipster racism exists and that denying that sucks is sadly not wankworthy, because she's right.

Yes, even if the one she talked to is asian. Asians are not always right.

To put out an example I am sure you understand:
If Female Pundit P. argues that rape isn't a big deal and that rape victims are at fault, and a guy calls her out on it and lectures her why this is wrong, the guy is right in doing that. We should cheer him on.

Just like Aja is right here. Godofwine being asian does not suddenly erase Hipster racism from the world, and does not make better that she pretended it isn't real. That was heavy fail on Godofwine's part.

Please, please, actual Aja wank. At this point I'll take her crying over some stupid pairing. I can't really mock her when she was right. I would want to see when she's wrong, as she often is.

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(Anonymous)
2010-10-19 10:52 pm UTC (link)

This is such a ridiculous summary of the discussion, and makes Aja out to be some kind of hero, when she's just an ignorant, whitesplaining fool. Did you miss the part where she whines to a PoC about having to 'endure' a year of RaceFail? Or lectures her about not understanding how it feels to be a minority? Did you see her apologising for her mistake? I sure as hell didn't

Did you miss godofwine's three thoughtful posts about how she doesn't disagree with the_moonmoth's taking offence at the lines in the fic, but with the_moonmoth's (and Rivier's white - literally - knighting) categorising anyone disagreeing with the_moonmoth's take as racist? "Asians are not always right." They're not always wrong, and this is not a cut and dried situation where the racism is obvious and undeniable. You have two minority commentators taking two different approaches - but only one of them is stating 'you're either with me or against me'. It's not godofwine.

"We should cheer him on."

Any man who decides to take any woman to task on the issue of rape, regardless of her opinion, deserves to have his mansplaining ass handed to him. The woman might be wrong, but it's not his place to lecture her. Ever.

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	and don't forget... (Anonymous) 2010-10-20 01:31 am UTC (link)
	The racism was textual, uttered by character, not author. (Reply to this)(Parent)

(Anonymous)
2010-10-20 05:39 am UTC (link)

Any man who decides to take any woman to task on the issue of rape, regardless of her opinion, deserves to have his mansplaining ass handed to him. The woman might be wrong, but it's not his place to lecture her. Ever.

Seriously? I am asking this in a totally straightforward, genuine way. I don't understand. I understand it not being his place to lecture her, specifically, but what if he's asking respectful questions about her acceptance of rape culture, or calling her out on a view that perpetuates rape culture? Where is the line that says the woman has a right not to be questioned in any way if the questioner is a man? And how is the woman's inviolate right to not be questioned by a man (if that is indeed what you are suggesting and I am not misunderstanding) more helpful to the (attempted?) dismantling of rape culture than intelligent discussion is?

Again, I am asking this in a genuine way. I haven't encountered this opinion before and I'd be interested in knowing the reasoning or theory behind it.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(Anonymous)
2010-10-20 06:19 am UTC (link)

1. In theory, it's possible a man could take a woman to task on the subject of rape and not be an arrogant ass about it. In practice, I never seen any man tackle the subject in a female-dominated forum without coming off as an arrogant ass.

2. We don't need men to explain rape culture to us. There are plenty of women who can talk to one of our own getting it wrong.[this is assuming the rape in question is man on woman - of course there is man on man, and very rarely, woman on man. I was referring to male rape of women.]

3. He would be better off taking his mansplaining ass off to his male buddies and convincing them that rape is a bad thing etc and the role men play in rape culture. Men throwing their weight around in rape discussions aren't (a) teaching us anything we don't already know or (b) having any impact on the perpetrators of rape. They're looking for cookies and pats on the head.

A woman supporting rape culture needs to be spoken to and have her erroneous thinking addressed. But a man is the worst possible person to do it. Same as a white person is the wrong person to explain racism to a PoC, or a straight person telling a queer person about homophobia. They might know their stuff. Still doesn't make it their place. If you're part of the problem, then you don't get to lay down the law about the solution. At least to me.

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(Anonymous)
2010-10-20 06:31 am UTC (link)

Thanks for taking the time to reply; it is much appreciated.

I see your points about considering what one adds/doesn't add to the discussion as a participant and acknowledging one's own role in the problem before deciding whether to speak. I am not certain I had, before recently, begun to consider several issues that I now think are vital to me as a woman and a POC.

I have to think further about the other issues you raise (I intend to talk about this with those people in my life who are better informed than I on these issues, to start) but again, I appreciate you taking the time to reply.

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	(Anonymous) 2010-10-20 05:39 pm UTC (link)
	I know when I see two people of color discussing racism I just shut up and listen. If someone starts bringing up personal insults or something factually wrong, I might jump in, but in a discussion like the one in question, things were being discussed, everyone seemed to be acting in good faith, and there was just no reason for Aja to jump in and start whitesplaining. (Reply to this)(Parent)

Re: for unfunny_fandom: Finally: Inception wank!

es_
2010-10-20 01:24 am UTC (link)

You know LJ activism has gone wrong when a white person is calling a minority member racist. Just as another was calling a transgender person transphobic because he was too busy paying the mortgage to be angry at world being mean to him, and a gay person homophobic because he didn't like yaoi.

Not gonna lie: As an Asian American, this is part of the reason why I avoid SF_D, FFR and even FS. I rarely find them to actually be accepting of diversity. They prefer in gleefully pointing out how much people fail rather than actually understanding what is happening.

Some minorities find certain things racist while others don't, depending on how much they have been through. I don't see why people need to lump the group together and assume they must all share the same opinion, and then wank over how a minority's opinion is internalized racism because it deviated from what the "right answer" is supposed to be.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	Re: for unfunny_fandom: Finally: Inception wank! es_ 2010-10-20 01:33 am UTC (link)
	Oh right, and posted: http://www.journalfen.net/community/unfunny_fandom/2555.html (Reply to this)(Parent)

	Re: for unfunny_fandom: Finally: Inception wank! (Anonymous) 2010-10-20 05:01 am UTC (link)
	"a minority's opinion is internalized racism because it deviated from what the "right answer" is supposed to be." And in far too many cases, that "right answer" was decided by white people in the first place. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	Re: for unfunny_fandom: Finally: Inception wank! (Anonymous) 2010-10-21 01:17 pm UTC (link)
	LJ "activism" = lazy white man's burden. /mandatory privilege holier than thou copypasta here/ People are all cluster generalized hiveminds categorized by whatever label the SJers decide, when will you understand? (Reply to this)(Parent)

	Re: for unfunny_fandom: Finally: Inception wank! (Anonymous) 2010-10-20 06:23 pm UTC (link)
	I'm a little confused by halflinen's original comment to be honest. Are we now assuming that all opinions and words spoken and held by a fictional character are those spoken and held by the fic author? (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	Re: for unfunny_fandom: Finally: Inception wank! (Anonymous) 2010-10-20 06:29 pm UTC (link)
	Damn, obviously I meant moonmoth, not halflinen. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	Re: for unfunny_fandom: Finally: Inception wank! (Anonymous) 2010-10-20 10:38 pm UTC (link)
	That's a good point fellow anon, but then the question would become whether Eames would actually say that, and I don't think he would. sigh Why did Inception have to have Racewank. I was hoping for something, well, funny for its first wank. :( - mirandafox @ LJ. (Reply to this)(Parent)

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