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the reemergence of OrangeBlossom
(Anonymous)
2011-10-30 06:05 pm UTC (link)

turimel finds Abbey's (OrangeBlossomOB, the other half of Those Two, the mother of "his son, a sparrow") blog. http://turimel.livejournal.com/107578.html#cutid1

turimel leaves a comment on Abbey's blog: http://kumquatwriter.wordpress.com/2011/10/12/why-i-dont-believe-in-god-part-5/#comment-97

and Abbey responds with a pretty kick ass blog post: http://kumquatwriter.wordpress.com/2011/10/30/pants-on-fire/

there are several posts on Abbey's blog which will be of interest to wankas. particularly Why I Don't Believe in God, parts 4 and 5, Book of Days, and A Little Birdy Told Me, about, you guessed it, Andrew's son, the sparrow.

Interested to see where this goes from here, with Abbey's newest post.

	Re: the reemergence of OrangeBlossom (Anonymous) 2011-10-30 11:01 pm UTC (link)
	I was just coming here to post this! (Reply to this)(Parent)

Re: the reemergence of OrangeBlossom
(Anonymous)
2011-10-31 01:08 am UTC (link)

I read Abbey's post - it was honest and hard to read at times.

I read turimel's comment - it was a pile of whiny horseshit. Three(ish) paragraphs of WAA WAA WAA HOW DARE YOU SAY I WAS IN THE WRONG. I think turmiel was expecting Abbey to say something like "Oh Turimel, you were right all along, Amy is a horrible person and I am a horrible person and you, YOU, are my personal savior!!" Instead, we got an excellent post that was not trans-bigoted, accepted responsibility, but also let it be known that perhaps, just perhaps, Turimel is doing more harm than good. Turimel's obsession has turned into being RIGHT, not about doing the right thing.

Good on Abby, bad on Turimel.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	Re: the reemergence of OrangeBlossom (Anonymous) 2011-10-31 06:52 am UTC (link)
	Aaaaaand Turi takes the low road. No surprise there... http://turimel.livejournal.com/107861.html (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	Re: the reemergence of OrangeBlossom (Anonymous) 2011-10-31 07:34 am UTC (link)
	You know, it's almost funny how dead-on the commentor above was. When the line between you and the people making fun of you gets that thin, you really need to take a look at yourself. But that's definitely not ~~Ahab's~~ Turimel's strong suit. Although she is getting a really satisfying roasting over on Abbey's journal. (Reply to this)(Parent)

Re: the reemergence of OrangeBlossom - (Anonymous), 2011-10-31 07:34 am UTC

Re: the reemergence of OrangeBlossom - (Anonymous), 2011-10-31 02:16 pm UTC

Re: the reemergence of OrangeBlossom - (Anonymous), 2011-11-01 02:54 am UTC

Re: the reemergence of OrangeBlossom - (Anonymous), 2011-11-01 12:29 pm UTC

SA - (Anonymous), 2011-11-01 10:12 pm UTC

Re: the reemergence of OrangeBlossom
(Anonymous)
2011-10-31 07:22 pm UTC (link)

I wonder how much of Turimel's obsession is really about vengeance and justice and how much is fuelled by a sub-/half-conscious desperation to justify the effort and expense of her book and make at least _some_ money out of it. People do funny things when they get lost in the pursuit of profit (and I don't mean she's doing it in cold blood, but profit would feel like proof that she's in the right, and so it's a cycle of desperation).

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: the reemergence of OrangeBlossom - (Anonymous), 2011-10-31 08:06 pm UTC

Re: the reemergence of OrangeBlossom - (Anonymous), 2011-10-31 10:10 pm UTC

Re: the reemergence of OrangeBlossom - (Anonymous), 2011-10-31 11:10 pm UTC

Re: the reemergence of OrangeBlossom - (Anonymous), 2011-11-01 02:51 am UTC

Re: the reemergence of OrangeBlossom
(Anonymous)
2011-10-31 07:32 am UTC (link)

That was a really interesting read. I believe it too. It sounds remarkably similar to what others involved (that Little Sam character) have said over the past bunch of years, how their group was essentially a cult and they were all following the pied piper. Amazing how she was able to lay it out, accept the wrongs she had done, condemn Thanfiction all while leaving out the flagrant transphobia. IT CAN BE DONE.

But yeah, it all sounds so scary. It makes me more scared that Thanfiction seems to just be repeating the same actions all over again and there might be other young people out there being sucked into new stories and mythos-building. The stuff Orangeblossom writes about how he likes to control things and people too. That kind of personality type scares me! Yet again, that account is more believable than the mastermind conman who stole thousands of dollars from everyone in the world and Sean Astin.

(BTW I don't mean to belittle Turmiel's initial anger and sense of betrayal, but the way she has carried herself in recent years and the VEHEMENCE of it all, is just unacceptable and not necessary. Especially reading the hostile comment she left on OB's newest post. Shakes head.)

But good for Orangeblossom, it sounds like she got all the help she needed, mended things with the people who mattered to her, has more than come clean about a lot of the past even though it was embarrassing to do and now has a good life for herself. I'm glad she wrote all that up, because it gives a window into that little world no one really knew anything about- and things can probably be learned from it. I like hearing all different points of view.

(Reply to this)(Parent)

Re: the reemergence of OrangeBlossom
(Anonymous)
2011-10-31 11:11 am UTC (link)

Not trying to distract from the obvious strides OB has made in rebuilding her life, or take away from the crazy circus funtimes of Thanfiction and Turimel, but a couple of contradictions in OB's posts kind of made me headtilt a little and I was wondering if anyone else felt the same way.

She states very firmly that she is "for obvious reasons" profoundly against anyone for any reason having their past aired in someone else's journal against their will or without their permission, then goes on to extensively do just that with Thanfiction. She also reams Turi pretty thoroughly for her witch hunt only making it harder to get out of the cult and easier for Than to maintain control over his followers...but then crows that she turned Turi's witch hunt onto Than and the Daydians in the first place as "the best revenge"...and then another heel face turn where she says that she is mainly talking about this in hopes one of Than's current victims sees it and gets out. Am I being stupid, or do I smell fish?

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: the reemergence of OrangeBlossom
(Anonymous)
2011-10-31 01:47 pm UTC (link)

These aren't bad points, but I have to say wrt the first one--this is clearly something OB needs to do for her own peace of mind, and I think for her it would be impossible to come clean about her own past without discussing Than and what happened between them. The pertinent difference between her and Turi here to me is that (so far) she hasn't pursued Than's actions past the point where he left her life. She's telling her story, which cannot be told without telling his for the time when they're together.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: the reemergence of OrangeBlossom - (Anonymous), 2011-10-31 11:29 pm UTC

Re: the reemergence of OrangeBlossom
(Anonymous)
2011-11-01 12:11 am UTC (link)

Agreed. Also, I am puzzled by how she keeps saying how young and innocent she was when she got involved with Jordan. 23 isn't *that* young. Plus she'd been married, owned a house, and had a job, so it's not like she didn't have any "real world" experience. What Abbey went through is terrible and I don't doubt a word of what she's said about Jordan's little cult, but I do think all this "I was so young and naive!" business is a bit over the top.

Then Abbey's mother comes in and challenges Turimel to pick on HER instead, saying, "Fight with an intelligent, mature adult, instead of abusing a young woman who’s rebuilt her life from ashes to dignity and honor." So...her mom is saying that Abbey is not an intelligent, mature adult? What the hell?

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: the reemergence of OrangeBlossom - (Anonymous), 2011-11-01 01:28 am UTC

Re: the reemergence of OrangeBlossom - (Anonymous), 2011-11-01 05:20 pm UTC

Re: the reemergence of OrangeBlossom - (Anonymous), 2011-11-01 05:38 pm UTC

Re: the reemergence of OrangeBlossom
(Anonymous)
2011-10-31 07:36 pm UTC (link)

Okay, let me ask this again.

Are we sure turimel, as in the person running the turimel livejournal, is really Turimel and not thanfiction?

At this point, Turimel is so vicious openly in public that barely anyone who isn't 100% for Turimel will stay at Turimel's side. Turimel has already a kind of cult following, who lap up everything in the turimel LJ, while everyone else recoils in horror at every posting Turimel makes. There is so much wrong with Turimel's posts, it's like Turimel is deliberately trying to be a giant douche.

Am I the only one seeing paralels to thanfiction's modus operandi here? Oddly, as Abbey points out, this all only helps Thanfiction. Look at fandomwank.

We used to be against thanfiction - a liar and a fraud, easy target.
But the more turimel posted, the more things turned into "thanfiction is crappy, yes, we get it, but wtf is wrong with Turimel and why is turimel suck an asshole?"

I am having a harder and harder time to accept turimel as a genuine person. She's a caricature. If someone was to make a sockpuppet of their evil arch nemesis that was unfairly following them, the result would be turimel.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	Re: the reemergence of OrangeBlossom (Anonymous) 2011-10-31 08:08 pm UTC (link)
	"there is so much wrong with Turimel's posts, it's like Turimel is deliberately trying to be a giant douche." If we're talking modus operandi, this looks more like MissScribe than Thanfiction... We are through the looking glass here, people. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: the reemergence of OrangeBlossom - (Anonymous), 2011-10-31 09:24 pm UTC

	Re: the reemergence of OrangeBlossom (Anonymous) 2011-10-31 10:06 pm UTC (link)
	I WOULD LOVE FOR THIS TWIST TO BE TRUE. I still dream of Charlotte Lennox being MsScribe, but I am pretty sure many people from those days met Turmiel in person? At least, at ONE TIME, she was real person. (Reply to this)(Parent)

Re: the reemergence of OrangeBlossom
(Anonymous)
2011-11-01 02:50 am UTC (link)

Abbey's mother left a SCATHING (and also BRILLIANT) response to Turimel in the comments of one of Abbey's blog entries ("Pants on Fire"). Emphasis is mine, but highlights include:

"(Abbey) has explained it herself, to the extent she feels necessary. She has been absolutely honest. But nothing, nothing, nothing is enough to feed the rage you feel. Here’s a news flash, Jeanine – your rage is at your own stupidity. And nothing will satisfy it. Nothing, because it really has nothing to do with my daughter. It’s about you and your own weakness and self-centeredness."

"You have spent the past nine years ignorantly trying to justify your collosal lack of common sense. My opinion, and that of a fine psychiatrist, is that you are so rage-filled because you are deluded, yourself. You have deflected your own poor judgement onto my daughter. You are hiding behind this rage…for nine years, no less! The first time I met Amy Player, I knew instantly that [blah blah, kind of transphobia] and I am no physician. But you, you bought the entire facade. You have
tried hard to cover your inconceivable bad judgement."

"It’s not “an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth” with you. It’s a thousand…a hundred thousand…eyes and teeth for you! And now you’ve become someone who can’t see a belt without striking below it."

"Leave my daughter alone, you fixated, narcissistic, deluded, defensive, vengeful, bloviating gasbag."

Bravo.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	Re: the reemergence of OrangeBlossom (Anonymous) 2011-11-01 07:31 pm UTC (link)
	That last line was breathtaking. Seriously, that was the most elegant, perfect thing I've read in this entire mess. Woman deserves PROPS. (Reply to this)(Parent)

Re: the reemergence of OrangeBlossom
(Anonymous)
2011-11-01 05:05 pm UTC (link)

I've been seeing this one off and on for years like most of us here and it's never interested me much because the wanktastic elements have been generally overshadowed by the massive bigotry and it's seemed pretty straightforward low level conman stuff. Like the Brandon Teena story without the gruesome ending as told (with tremendous hysteria) by one of the people he'd kited checks to.

Comparing the Amy Player blog, Abbey's, and the recent post by Ceirdwenfc is starting to fascinate me and my master's in Gender Studies and Psych though. I'm in the Fort Collins area of CO myself and am seriously considering trying to get A. in touch with giccolo (gender identity center of Colorado) for some serious therapy. It seems pretty clear now that the money hungry movie star obsessed conman is an invention of Turi's that also appears intriguingly projective. What's a lot more interesting to me is the emerging picture of someone where all the stuff about "delusional" and "crazy" that's been thrown around the wank seems a lot more accurate.

A surprising amount of the time cult leaders are the first ones in line to drink the koolaid and the reason they can pull off so much of what they do is they BELIEVE. That belief inspires other belief, and as more of the story of inside A's world comes out, it seems clear that this was never a scheme for personal gain in the traditional sense. I think we're looking at a case of extreme gender dismorphia in a mind that even his enemies have admitted brilliant and creative that has lead to various levels of psychotic fixed delusion that grow increasingly internally complex and demand (and create!) their own outside validation when under increasing stress. There have been more lucid cycles under less stress (I think the Amy Player blog was one of these) and more extreme cycles under more stress (Abbey writes about how OTT it got when they were living practically homeless under Turimel's prosecution.)

I know a lot of people are going to jump on me for "defending" Thanfiction, but I don't really care. To me as a wanker, this is a lot more deliciously complex and intriguing than a straightup con. To me as a human being though it's the hope that a lot of therapy about resolving that a non gendercompliant body doesnt have to mean a complete break from reality or separation of mind and identity might save not only one person who clearly could have a lot to offer the world but also their future potential victims.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: the reemergence of OrangeBlossom
(Anonymous)
2011-11-01 07:57 pm UTC (link)

Count me in with those who hope Andy might seek out and find some kind of relief in therapy. I knew him once and almost hurt to watch as his fantasies (which all, in the end, boiled down to something gender-related) spiraled further and further out of his control or anyone else's. By the time I (shamefully?) abandoned him, everything about him and his group of friends/fans/acolytes was so beyond the realm of reason that it was actually painful to see. He reeled other vulnerable people into these little worlds built on delusion, and he and all of them were so lost in this kind of sad belief and desperate trust that to acknowledge that there was something wrong would have been absolutely devastating.

It seems pretty clear to me that Andy has issues that go way beyond his being transgender; but when so many of his "schemes" or "fantasies" or "delusions", when so many of the lies that he tells relate directly back to gender, it also seems that so much could be done for him with a compassionate, understanding counselor. The only hitch is that getting Andy to speak to someone at GICColo would require him to acknowledge to himself (and presumably to a therapist) that he is, at some level, transgender.

As far as I know, he's still adamant about the fact that he definitely, definitely, definitely isn't trans. Ceirdwenfc, in her post about the wank, draws attention to the idea that trans people are born in their "right" gender no matter how their body looks, and that with this in mind, for Andy to say "I was born a boy and have always been male" isn't incorrect. He's gone beyond that, though, and maintains that not only was he born male, but that he was born mentally, spiritually, physically, biologically, chromosomally, and genetically male and could therefore have no concerns about his gender identity and, by extension, no reason to speak to a therapist. I hope he changes his mind.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: the reemergence of OrangeBlossom - (Anonymous), 2011-11-01 08:35 pm UTC

Re: the reemergence of OrangeBlossom - (Anonymous), 2011-11-01 08:48 pm UTC

Re: the reemergence of OrangeBlossom - (Anonymous), 2011-11-01 09:10 pm UTC

Re: the reemergence of OrangeBlossom - (Anonymous), 2011-11-01 09:26 pm UTC

Re: the reemergence of OrangeBlossom - (Anonymous), 2011-11-02 12:20 am UTC

Re: the reemergence of OrangeBlossom - (Anonymous), 2011-11-02 07:55 am UTC

Re: the reemergence of OrangeBlossom
(Anonymous)
2011-11-02 03:13 am UTC (link)

The thing is that most people who are trans* work through their issues without lying and cheating and rooking people out of their money and their time and their energy for big splendiferous events that will never happen.

Because most trans* people aren't con artists, just like most cis people aren't con artists.

So I get that Andrew Blake might, because of the complexities around his gender transition, feel completely divorced from the shit he did when his legal name was Amy Player. The thing is, though, that he did do that shit. He did rip a bunch of people off. He did make large and grandiose plans that he had no way of fulfilling and leave other people on the hook. He did manipulate very young and vulnerable people (not Abbey so much as the younger housemates).

Saying "I am not Amy Player, and I never was" is understandable psychologically as a way of registering his anger at being misgendered by his family and the medical establishment and society at large, but when it's also a way to distance himself from the harm he's caused others then I don't think he gets a mulligan on it.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: the reemergence of OrangeBlossom - (Anonymous), 2011-11-02 06:37 am UTC

Re: the reemergence of OrangeBlossom - (Anonymous), 2011-11-02 07:37 am UTC

Re: the reemergence of OrangeBlossom - (Anonymous), 2011-11-02 03:44 pm UTC

Re: the reemergence of OrangeBlossom - (Anonymous), 2011-11-06 10:08 pm UTC

Re: the reemergence of OrangeBlossom - (Anonymous), 2011-11-02 07:49 am UTC

Re: the reemergence of OrangeBlossom
(Anonymous)
2011-11-02 03:06 pm UTC (link)

It is incredibly disingenuous to compare Andy Blake to Brandon Teena. WTF, anon?

As for the "money hungry movie star obsessed conman" business, I agree with Abbey's take on it, but that doesn't mean that it's an "invention" of Turimel's--it just means that that was how she interpreted what Jordan was doing based on the data she had. He WAS asking for a lot of money. He WAS trying to get a lot of celebrities involved in what he was doing. It was perfectly reasonable to interpret those actions the way Turimel did, until we heard otherwise from someone who was more intimately involved in it (Abbey).

Also, whatever Andy's psychological diagnoses may be, that doesn't excuse what he did to all of those people. That doesn't make it okay. I do hope that he gets help and I'm not saying that he should be locked up or anything; it's just something to keep in mind.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: the reemergence of OrangeBlossom - (Anonymous), 2011-11-02 04:30 pm UTC

Re: the reemergence of OrangeBlossom - (Anonymous), 2011-11-02 06:32 pm UTC

DA - (Anonymous), 2011-11-02 10:16 pm UTC

Re: DA - (Anonymous), 2011-11-03 12:55 pm UTC

Re: DA - (Anonymous), 2011-11-03 01:05 pm UTC

	Re: the reemergence of OrangeBlossom (Anonymous) 2011-11-02 03:14 am UTC (link)
	turimel just needs a giant cup of STFU. Or perhaps a 24/7 intravenous drip of STFU. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	Re: the reemergence of OrangeBlossom (Anonymous) 2011-11-02 08:15 am UTC (link)
	Everything turi says is completely colored by her insistence at the use of "Amy" and female pronouns. It just reaches a point where I don't care how right she is, her transphobic douchebaggery just makes me want to punch her off the internet forever. (I know, not exactly new feelings.) (Reply to this)(Parent)

	Re: the reemergence of OrangeBlossom (Anonymous) 2011-11-02 01:54 pm UTC (link)
	Someone else who was involved in the original Tentmoot, Jason (I don't know the whole story well enough to know what part he played), comes to Turimel to tell her she was over-invested: http://turimel.livejournal.com/107861.html?thread=945749#t945749 Turimel manages to take her response from "I am humbled" to "How am I the villain?" in just a few short paragraphs. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	Re: the reemergence of OrangeBlossom (Anonymous) 2011-11-02 02:34 pm UTC (link)
	Check Turimel's latest post--a reconciliation seems to be in the works between Turimel and Cheri AND between Turimel and Abbey! This can only be a good thing. (Also, I eagerly await seeing what the "OMG, thanfiction and Turimel are the SAME PERSON!!1" conspiracy nuts will make of it.) (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	Re: the reemergence of OrangeBlossom (Anonymous) 2011-11-02 03:33 pm UTC (link)
	The "they are the same person" is mostly me, and it's a joke. I know that Turimel is a real person who is just too obsessed. But it's a fun idea and would be the only way to top what has already happened. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: the reemergence of OrangeBlossom - (Anonymous), 2011-11-04 07:23 am UTC

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