Jaye

Shooting very large fish in a very small barrel

Sat, 30 Jun 2007 09:42:39 GMT

A little bit of back story, The Frenz Of The Enz forums have always been known within Finn Brothers/Crowded House/Neil Finn/Tim Finn/Split Enz fandom for being wanky, to the point that many fans myself included rarely post there. Crowded House are an antipodean (assigning them a nationality only leads to more wank) pop band that initially existed from 1985-1996. Long story short, the band were immensely popular in the antipodes and were at various stages immensely popular in the rest of the world, the band broke up, Neil Finn went on to a solo career and Paul Hester, their former drummer committed suicide in 2005.

In January of this year Neil Finn announces that he is reforming the band with a new drummer, they will be releasing a new album and going on a world tour through the latter half of 2007. This, at the time led to surprisingly little wank.

Flash forward to mid-June 2007 and the album, which is due for release in late June-Mid July depending on your region is leaked on the internet.

The first member of Frenz, mac to get their hand on it posts this gem.

Well,I hate saying this but.......Ive been listening to TOE for three days now and honestly dont like any of it.It bothers me because Ive NEVER felt that way about ANY of crowded house's work.

Eight pages and counting of wank ensues.

Serial wanker John/WestCoast immediately goes for the personal attack with this:

Mac:
I have been thinking about what you wrote and this is my response:
To go on a site where a lot of us are huge fans of all things Finn and say that you "honestly don't like any of the songs on TOE" is just ludicrous. Don't get me wrong here...I am very open to free speech, your ability to state your likes and dislikes, etc. but to do it here?

In my humble opinion that just reeks of grandstanding and borderlines on someone who needs a lot of attention. You really want us to believe that there is not a single song on the new album that appeals to you? I for one am not buying it. Don't be confused. I am buying the album, just not your post.

You claim that you have seen Split Enz, Tim, Neil and CH so I infer from that you are a fan. To go on a site like this and make the statement that you have seems fairly juvenile, if not dishonest.
Others have stated that this album may grow on you. It really matters not to me. Even if you stick with your original story about not liking "any of it" many people will adore this album. The only opportunity that I have had to listen to the new releases was on the LA Weekly page and I honestly loved each song for different reasons. Tonight while cooking dinner I found myself humming "Don't Stop Now" and smiled to myself.

Here is another wonderful quote from you from one of your postings:
___________________________________________________________________
I dont like the videos at all......except for one..."your not the girl you think you are" thats it,the rest can go out with the trash
___________________________________________________________________

Maybe there is a pattern here, huh?

In my experience there is always someone that will rain on our parade (metaphorically speaking) and you appear to be that guy. For CH to get back together and tour again is possibly going to be the highlight of my summer. Whether or not this was supposed to be a solo album from Neil or not doesn't seem important to me. They are back with new music.

This is the simple truth:
They have a new album.
They are touring again when many thought they never would.
They will develop a new fan base that will reach a younger generation of listeners.
They have made many thousands of people very happy. That includes me.

If you can tip your head to the side and let a little bit of the negativity pour out you will be much happier.

I am done now.
Sheesh.

scottishcrowdie88 chimes in with this response to John/WestCoast complete with the non-use of punctuation:

john/westcoast i applaud you for standing up for what you believe, but i think you're one of the many people blinkered by an unconditional adoration of CH into thinking that everything they do is perfect - it isnt. the album is essentially a neil album, a different CH sound maybe but one so similar to much of Neil's solo stuff that this cannot be ignored. CH and NF music is different - people can like one without liking the other, with some people it just takes a bit of time. i think mac's determination to go to gigs and support the band in spite of his reservations about their new album is to be admired, not cynically questioned. each is entitled to his own opinion, and wherever it's not classed as incitement, each is entitled to express it however and wherever he wishes, just like mac did, and just like you have

nailsinmyfeet drives by with this classic:

I've stopped posting here regularly largely because I'm sick of the whinging and negativity.

And it continues on and on and on.

Frenz wank

Mon, 13 Mar 2006 13:18:14 GMT

frenzforum.com

Problem with Family-related posts?

This topic can be found at:

http://frenzforum.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/9401061171/m/9101044271

20 August 2005, 01:19 PM

OneWhoDreams

Problem with Family-related posts?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: OneWhoDreams,
11 January 2006 04:04 AM

21 August 2005, 06:23 PM

tonguetied

When a thread is deleted or moved the topic starter is automatically notified via a PM. It is not practical for every contributor to be contacted on removal of a thread.

The thread existed in archives, as do many others which were not closed and/or deleted although they do not meet AIA rules. To sift through every archived thread would be an impossible task.

I hate having to quote from the rules but here goes:

1. Non Music Posts
a. Members wishing to discuss matters that are not related to the music of Split Enz and related projects specifically or music generally, are referred to alternative forums that cater for their discussion.

I can personally recommend Next Exit, which I visit a lot myself:

http://nextexit.proboards26.com/index.cgi

This is a community based board for Finn fans and has quite a few members.

Of course we listen to members on the board. This thread was removed as it was a non musical topic but more importantly it was becoming too personal regarding members of family, which I am sure you will understand.

I can understand how you may be disappointed that this thread was removed. This is not done lightly and any members concerns are discussed in the moderators forum.

If you still have concerns please feel free to contact myself or frenzwebmistress via PM.

Thanks

21 August 2005, 10:35 PM

<frenzwebmistress>

I can try to answer this.

We know that some personal things about artists will be discussed. We prefer that this be a music forum, but we know from time to time, it's relevant. Neil's been married to Sharon, they have kids, she is an artist... these things will come up, and that's OK.

The Sharon thread that got removed started as a "what does she look like" and "was she in videos" topic. It moved a bit to posting photos of her. Then it got a bit surreal (in our opinions) when people started musing on Neil's and Sharon's love and relationship. Someone felt "undeserving" that they haven't had a love like theirs. Well, who knows what their love is like, and gosh, that just made us mods uncomfy. We felt that if we were uncomfy, Neil or Sharon could read it and feel uncomfy.

We took it down, and I emailed Peter Green to ask how far we should allow posts about personal issues like wives and children. I hadn't heard back, so I will ask him again today. Some calls we make ourselves, some do come from Peter. Either way, we are trying to create a place that's got zero rumour, has quality discussion about music, and wouldn't make any of the artists feel stalked. That sounds common sense enough, but we have to remove quite a bunch of weird posts that I think would make artists call lawyers. Most you probably never saw, which is the point. But you might or might not be disturbed by some of the things people post about the artists and their wives/children. We sure have been!

Now let me ask you something, OneWhoDreams. You've been riding the Sharon Finn post cause for months now. What is your point? Are you burning to post about Sharon and you feel stifled? Why has this become a bit of a cause? I guess if lack of Sharon Finn posting is the worst thing going on here, we're doing OK.

Thanks.

21 August 2005, 10:51 PM

<frenzwebmistress>

PS: This is not about members' opinions. I am more inclined to act based on what Peter tells me is appropriate. Without input from Peter, I trust the group of moderators to determine the best direction for the forum. If every member here wanted the right to post hardcore porn images, I still wouldn't allow that.

I think what some people forget is that this forum is rated G. We have pre-teens reading and posting here. The forum is completely open for anybody to read. I chose that specifically, and I also chose to NOT "card" everybody who wants to read or post. We could lock up the forum and say you have to be 18 to read or post, but I didn't want that. I wanted it to be open and accessible to everybody. Legally, that means NOT posting any content that would be not OK for kids. That means we tend to take down things you'd think are OK to leave up, but we're not all adults around here.

We also have a lesson to learn from the media quoting this website after Paul's death. People's opinions and feelings ended up in print without them being asked first if it could be published. That opened some eyes as to who might be reading this. Record companies, artists, managers, journalists, who knows. If someone starts posting things about our musician's wives or children, it could end up on another website or in print somewhere. And what if that post were crap or psycho or an invasion of privacy? Then it would be everywhere, out of frenz.com control, and lawyers might have to get involved. And if it didn't go far, it might still be uncomfy for Sharon to sit down, go to this website, and read what people are saying about her.

I say post as if you know the person you're talking about will be reading it but not replying to it.

Our membership is over 4000 now, and as we've previously told the other person who's closely in on this situation with you, we don't open everything that goes on here to votes. We don't open moderator decisions to votes. We don't leave offensive posts out there to ask 4000 people how they feel about the post. We haven't opened rules to votes and don't plan to. If you found 500 people who wanted to vote to close this website completely, that wouldn't make me do it.

22 August 2005, 04:41 AM

Diamondback

quote:
We also have a lesson to learn from the media quoting this website after Paul's death. People's opinions and feelings ended up in print without them being asked first if it could be published. That opened some eyes as to who might be reading this. Record companies, artists, managers, journalists, who knows. If someone starts posting things about our musician's wives or children, it could end up on another website or in print somewhere. And what if that post were crap or psycho or an invasion of privacy? Then it would be everywhere, out of frenz.com control, and lawyers might have to get involved. And if it didn't go far, it might still be uncomfy for Sharon to sit down, go to this website, and read what people are saying about her.

I say post as if you know the person you're talking about will be reading it but not replying to it.

Well .. you marry somebody famous .. it goes with the territory.
No use getting all "touchy bloody feely" over it.
Sharon Finn probably dosent give a monkeys either way and "if" she happens to read anything pertaining to her and her family on this site she would probably laugh it all off .. like any sane person would do.

quote:
Our membership is over 4000 now, and as we've previously told the other person who's closely in on this situation with you, we don't open everything that goes on here to votes. We don't open moderator decisions to votes. We don't leave offensive posts out there to ask 4000 people how they feel about the post. We haven't opened rules to votes and don't plan to. If you found 500 people who wanted to vote to close this website completely, that wouldn't make me do it.

Yes maybe 4000 members .. but i would say that "realistically" speaking there would be only 250 people here that post on a regular basis (if that) .. the rest are basically "dead air" ie.. joined but never posted .. or joined but only ever posted once.
Yes .. its all getting a little too "Anal" and "Padded Cell" around here

22 August 2005, 08:01 AM

Sundaymarch

To Diamondback, I understand your sentiments... After I posted under the Kashan / Woman's Day thread back in the spring, the entire thread was removed, and I was sent a rather stern PM, along with a full list of the rules governing this site.

After the virtual paddling, I felt like I HAD just been to the pricipal's office! 'Anal' and 'padded cell' were words that sprung to mind for me too.

However, after more thought, I have to hand it to those in charge of this site. They are dedicated, and obviously care very much about what they do, and who they do it for.

I would hope that we all could be a little more laid back, and not so rules, rules, rules. Some rules are obvious, such a rated G content, and not posting personal info which could invade privacy,etc.

As far as everything else non-musical, let's be real. Split Enz hasn't recorded anything as a group for how long? Crowded House hasn't recorded anything for how long? The Finn Bros. look as if they're gearing up for an extended break...what else do we have to bloody talk about? I'm a Crowdie myself, and seeing them live was the best concert experience ever ( and I've seen many ). Meeting them in person was even better. As musicians they were beyond compare- as humans, they were so much like the rest of us...not divas and d***s.

22 August 2005, 08:14 AM

<frenzwebmistress>

Diamondback, if you know Sharon personally, it's fair for you to make those assessments since you would have asked her how she felt. Barring that, you're really just superimposing your own feelings onto her. You don't really know what she wants or how she feels, so it's unfair for you to make a statement that's conjecture but make it seem like fact.

I don't care that you found it anal or the like. We are proud of what we do and offer here, and the fan club and artists think we do a good job. I'd like to please them! Once we stop pleasing them, we lose credibility, which means we lose a lot.

I personally don't believe that you lose your privacy or any sense of personal dignity because you marry someone famous. I think these people ARE like the rest of us, which means that they have a preference, they have a sense of privacy, and I'm going to protect that.

I'm getting an email back from Peter Green now. I'll post once he and I have something to publicly say on the matter.

22 August 2005, 08:16 AM

<frenzwebmistress>

PS to Diamondback.

Your implication is that if Sharon DOES care about what gets posted, then she must be insane. May I suggest that you re-read the rules? Judgment like that is not OK.

And hearing what I'm hearing from Peter Green, you're not endearing yourself to any of the musicians or their wives just in case that was in any way one of your goals.

22 August 2005, 08:21 AM

<frenzwebmistress>

As for what else do we talk about, you're making me think about something my evil Grandma once said. "If you don't have any children, what are you going to talk about when you're my age?"

I always said I'd rather the forum have dead air than to have people creating things just for the sake of communication. If you have nothing to say, don't post anything. If you feel like that topic's been discussed before, don't reply! It's always new to somebody, but I'm not willing to sacrifice someone's privacy to have "something to talk about." That's not what this forum is about.

22 August 2005, 04:30 PM

Diamondback

quote:
PS to Diamondback.

Your implication is that if Sharon DOES care about what gets posted, then she must be insane. May I suggest that you re-read the rules? Judgment like that is not OK.

And hearing what I'm hearing from Peter Green, you're not endearing yourself to any of the musicians or their wives just in case that was in any way one of your goals.

For the record i didnt "Imply" anything .. and you are not making any sense at all... what! am i supposed to be intimidated,frightend and threatend by that comment.
this is just so much crap!! What are you serious..? c,mon Debs you can do better than that.

If it is such a "Big Deal" Why have we not seen even the slightest of overtures from Sharon Finn about what she feels about all of this.

I put it to you Debs that she probably dosent even care about it .. and because she has better things in her life to worry about.
So Why all the hoo haa .. talk about making a mountain out of a mole hill.
Think about it Debs .. why is it that people are leaving FF .. and moving on .. do you think that it is because of your condesending attitude towards them when they happen to disagree with you.
Well this "Homey dont play dat"
Debs .. its only a message board .. its not rocket science .. nobodys trying to cure cancer here .. lighten up.
Guess im banned now

22 August 2005, 05:50 PM

tonguetied

People stay if they want to. If they like it they stay, if they don't like it the obvious course of action is to leave. Some prefer other boards and that is fine. I love here AND Next Exit.
For some, like yourself the course of action is to make a song and dance about it first. This would not be the firt time and I'm sure it won't be the last that this happens.

You are telling Debs to lighten up. Maybe you should look at yourself first maybe?

Debs needs to speak with Peter Green and you need to be patient.

Thanks

22 August 2005, 05:59 PM

Diamondback

tonguetied .. it is always the same around here.. you disagree with with Debs about anything.. it dosent matter how objective you are .. you try telling it like it is ..and you end up being treated like something that she scraped from beneath her shoe.
Hauling

22 August 2005, 06:56 PM

tonguetied

It is always the same round here in that sometimes when something happens that upsets an occasional member that they treat Admins and Mods like they were something they scraped from their shoe.

We are trying our best and giving our freetime to create somewhere for Finn fans to enjoy.

I am asking you, again, with all respect to please be patient while this particular issue is discussed.

22 August 2005, 10:25 PM

<frenzwebmistress>

Diamondback, I understand that it's a priority for you to create conflict. That way, you can feel a sense of accomplishment and share that with those who are like-minded. However, your style of rant and accusation doesn't fit in here.

I'd written something longer, but it wouldn't make any difference. The members here read what you write and see what you're really doing. Unlike you, I don't need to tell people how to think. The members get you.

Peter Green and I have had emails back and forth. You might say we are preparing a statement that we can post here. I'll of course post that once we've finished fine tuning it.

23 August 2005, 05:25 AM

boarderGurl

quote:
Originally posted by OneWhoDreams:
[qb]
quote:
Originally posted by Frenz Webmistress:
[qb] Now let me ask you something, OneWhoDreams. You've been riding the Sharon Finn post cause for months now. What is your point? Are you burning to post about Sharon and you feel stifled? Why has this become a bit of a cause? I guess if lack of Sharon Finn posting is the worst thing going on here, we're doing OK. [/qb]
Months? I've only just re-visited the forum a month ago (if my estimate is correct). [/qb]

Indeed, OneWhoDreams you are correct.....your involvement on Frenz Forum is puncuated with lapses of inactivity. You posted here on June 3, 2003, then you were absent for over a year before your next post on September 11, 2004. Your recent activity began when you re-surfaced July 13, 2005.....about 5 weeks ago.

Deb, you can find the answers to your questions by simply browsing OneWhoDreams' post history.......it's easy to see that this is a subject they're really interested in. I'm eagerly awaiting the official word on this.

Un-Official Statistician,

Genny

23 August 2005, 08:28 AM

caledonia girl

Hi OneWhoDreams

I don't have a strong view either way with respect to discussions on Sharon Finn but I do think that assuming that any song written by Neil relates directly to his own life is unfair.

On the subject of this type of discussion moving to other forums/sites I strongly suspect that they will anyway regardless of whatever is decided here.

23 August 2005, 01:12 PM

Kazzie

Into Temptation wasn't written about Neil cheating on Sharon so why assume every song he writes about love or sex is about Sharon, unless he says it is?
I understand your anger at the deleted posts but I really don't see the need to be discussing Sharon Finn. Even if Neil mentions her a great deal, she is a private person and we know little or nothing about her. And some of those Sharon posts were getting a bit "much", I stopped reading them.
I belong to a few forums where the private lives of the subjects are not allowed to be discussed and it doesn't affect those forums at all.

23 August 2005, 02:46 PM

Texas Rose

I agree with Kazzie.

I also stopped reading the Sharon thread - and I didn't even get that far into it.

We have the right to be interested in the artists' music, but we do not have the right to expose every aspect of their private lives.

All I can suggest is that you put yourself in their position as you seek to find out one intimate detail after the other - would you be comfortable it if someone was making that enquiry about you? And remembering that none of these enquiries are stand alone. Each answer provided seems to fuel the fire to dig deeper and get more personal.

I'm not interested in the personal lives of the guys in any way, shape or form (and I have said this before). Because I wouldn't want strangers to be interested in me in that way. And let's remember - we are strangers.

And if you're unsure of where that line denoted as "personal lives" begins, again, apply what you're doing to yourself, and I mean in such a way that you really feel it, and see how you like it.

Let's concentrate on the brilliant music - there's plenty for everyone.

23 August 2005, 05:30 PM

tonguetied

'This is only my opinion; and it may sound blunt, but that's only for impact's sake.'

Why do you want to make such an 'impact' with your posting? I asked for members to be patient on this issue so there really is no need for you to keep fuelling the fire. With all due respect your opinion is being addressed so there is no need to rush around finding more firewood.

'I get the impression that maybe someone in frenz administration met Neil and is trying to make a good impression by being extra-sensitive to his reactions of what he might read here. I apologize in advance if this is not the case; it's just my impression.'

Thanks for the apology. Thats a load of tosh.

'You see, if the admins approach every post asking, "Would Neil approve of this? Would Tim approve of that?" then pretty soon I can foresee the forum getting pretty paranoid. What comes next? Will all negative posts about Neil -- someone expressing that they didn't like his latest album or his latest concert -- be disallowed because of admins' fear that they might offend him? '

Again, nonsense, sorry.

Thank you also for recent posts made here which help clarify things further.

23 August 2005, 07:38 PM

lee rutle

whatever US prying, nosey people think, and I include MESELF, all finns including sharon deserve a bit of privacy, we don't own them, so, for me I would respect webmistress's wishes.

not trying to offend anyone mind

frenzforum.com

Problem with Family-related posts?

This topic can be found at:

http://frenzforum.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/9401061171/m/9101044271

23 August 2005, 09:00 PM

<frenzwebmistress>

Problem with Family-related posts?

I'll try to answer points as they came up...

quote:
why couldn't there have been a general announcement in the "Announcements" forum to let people know that the thread would be deleted in the near future

We delete and move topics all the time. We don't leave them up long enough for people to look at them, vote on them, or review them. We don't say "by the way, we're going to delete this topic that's got a porn link... last chance to see it!" Once we decide it has to go, it has to go.

quote:
I cannot monitor a topic every day and re-save it whenever something new is posted in the fear that it will be deleted at any moment. (Although I've learned my lesson now and will probably do that from now on.

Exactly. I have no way to know what people want to see. I couldn't have known that for weeks, this Sharon thing would linger! If a thread is important to you, you'll save it. We're not going to put it in a password protected place where some people can see it. If it needs to be taken down, that means it needs to go away for everybody, not just some people. I didn't know it would be deleted until it was! I can't see these things coming.

I'm not being sarcastic. I mostly don't bother with sarcasm. I am seriously asking why this is so important to you. You want a thread that's been deleted to stay up long enough kinda just for you. You are making it sound like if I don't allow more Sharon chat, it'll go underground and be dangerous and unmoderated. I feel like you are specifically trying to back us into some sort of weird corner, and I'm wondering why this is so HOT for you. Some people who've contacted me privately are wondering that too.

I'm not fascinated with Neil's and Sharon's love mostly because I don't know what's really going on. I appreciate that he shares it in his songs, but we really don't know what's going on. I'm not going to fascinate myself or idolise something where I don't know what it really is, for better or for worse. I'm going to focus on my life and love!

Thanks to Gen for clearing up the months thing! I have to say that every day is the same to the self-employed. I work 16 hours a day, 7 days a week. I often think things that happened 2 weeks ago happened 3 months ago. I think I'm awake and deeply functioning for many times the amount of time most people are, so time is just different to me. When I say months, it FEELS like months to me even if that's not factually the case. Sorry about that. I wasn't saying that to be mean or sarcastic. I thought it was months, and considering that 16 hours of work (I'm not getting to), I didn't research OneWhoDreams' posts.

quote:
I get the impression that maybe someone in frenz administration met Neil and is trying to make a good impression by being extra-sensitive to his reactions of what he might read here. I apologize in advance if this is not the case; it's just my impression.

Holy poopity poop, that is WAY off. Neil wouldn't know me from a bar of soap. And I'm not looking to meet him, cuddle up to him, brown nose, or anything else. My intentions have been posted here over and over, but I'll do it again.

The frenz.com web address is put into most of the CDs and DVDs that are released. That makes me feel VERY responsible to provide quality content to the people who will buy that item and then follow to the site and then the forum. It's not about placating Neil, but it is about upholding any standards the fan club has. If we EVER burned a bridge with the fan club, frenz.com would stop being printed in CDs and DVDs and other stuff. I'm looking to protect that relationship while providing a quality and positive experience for the fans who visit and post here.

We don't ask "what would Neil think of this"? We're not paranoid. We welcome all opinions on Neil. I'm famous for having said that the only purpose for the first Finn Brothers album is as a drink coaster. And I support the right for anybody here to not like a particular musical project, album, or song. I want that freely expressed without judgement or insult from other members. That's the point of this forum. I tried to express that in other places, and got super pooped on. I wanted to create a place where it was OK to not like Neil's new song or Tim's video or that entire Enz album.

quote:
How can we have a forum like this without her cropping up once in a while?

And if you read what I wrote earlier, I know that she'll crop up and we're generally OK with that. We're not OK with where some of these things go. You have to admit the following:

If you do not come to the forum that often and you missed heaps of the Sharon thread, do you really know what we saw that made us feel it had to be deleted? The answer is no, which is what I think made you think that the decision was random or malicious or baseless. Remember that because things get deleted, there are things you don't see. LOTS of them. Did you see the post where someone made it sound like he wanted to sexually assault Bic Runga? Did you see the post when someone linked to a cartoon of hardcore sexual activity? We hope you didn't.

quote:
If people are interested in discussing Sharon Finn and they can't do it on this forum, then the discussions will just go underground; meaning, they'll go to other web sites or forums -- perhaps sites that are not as well moderated as this one and which will allow all manner of posts no matter how disturbing, offensive, or psycho.

Hey, I can't stop any of y'all from being psycho. I truly can't, and some of you have clearly said that you don't want me to. If you're going to unhealthily obsess with Sharon, you'll find a way to do it. I don't know who posts here nicely and secretly has an insane shrine of used Neil tissues.

I can't stop any of you from behaving in ways I might personally find unhealthy. But I can create a forum where we stay away from rumour, speculation, and unhealthy personal obsession. I don't know how many "underground Sharon Finn" discussions or forums there are. I'm not responsible for ANY of them. I'm responsible for this place, so my goal is to shape this place. You are welcome to go and make the Sharon Finn discussion forum and deal with the positive and negative repercussions that might come from it!

quote:
Now if Sharon Finn is worried about her privacy, I would think that she would tell her husband to stop writing songs about their sex life (listen to the lyrics of "Don't Ask Why"). If she's OK with THAT SONG being recorded, then what could we possibly say on this forum that could be any more personal or "uncomfy" for her to read?

The interesting things about you and Diamondback is that both of you imagine yourself in Sharon's shoes. Sharon should be OK with anything any of us have to say. Sharon is OK with Neil writing romantic or sexual songs, so she couldn't possibly care about something someone could post. Sharon's a public figure, so she should have no expectation that fans should have any boundaries.

You've made all of this up in your head. It's important to admit that you don't know Sharon. You haven't discussed this with her. You don't know where her personal boundaries are. You don't know if she feels the way you do or not. You don't even know how she feels about Neil's songs, and in Neil's songs, we don't know what's fantasy, what's reality, and what's glorified or exaggerated. It's important to admit that you have assigned to Sharon the way you feel. You've just plopped that on her without really knowing how this woman feels about anything.

I find that unfair.

Let's take Bic Runga. She's in the spotlight. She writes personal songs. Any of you could make the same assumptions about her. She's a public figure, she should be fine with anything anybody might say about her. Well then should we have left up the multiple posts one person put up about what he wanted to do with her? Should we ignore that Bic might have felt those were uncomfy or unsafe or upsetting? Should we assume that Bic can and should just laugh that off?

You might say yes just because you think it proves your point that it should all be fair game. Or maybe you genuinely feel that Bic should feel A-OK in the face of a stranger basically musing on sexually assaulting her. But these things aren't OK by us.

We all have different standards. This comes down to our standards differing from your standards. You evidently want people to be able to post rumour, speculation, and obsession about Sharon just because she exists but with no regard for whatever her real feelings are. If you really want to put yourself in her shoes, imagine a world where everybody thinks you're fair game... where everybody thinks they know you because your husband wrote a few songs... where people think you shouldn't have a sense of privacy because you married a public figure. Imagine that world, and then imagine how refreshing some respect and privacy might be.

I can imagine that. I can imagine that because it feels real. And then I can identify with it because for around 7 years, I've lived in a world where people have started mailing lists and discussion groups because they've decided they hate me. They never met me, but they didn't like this forum, and it's all my fault. You might say that there are some people who are unhealthily obsessed with me. And who has stuck up for me? Who has said, "You know what, we don't really know this person. Let's not say these things." As far as I know, nobody. I do unto others. I will protect the musicians and their wives and girlfriends and parents and children because if I were in their spot, I would want someone to respect me.

I think that echoes what other members have posted to this topic. I understand that this might be more comfy if it looked like Deb vs. everybody or moderators vs. Sharonettes, but the reality is that the members have opinions too. They've been expressed publicly and privately, and I am hearing support for how we do things. I don't expect everybody to always agree with moderator decisions or to always like them. We have to make tough calls, and those aren't fun. I know there are people who feel the way you do, but see that other members have posted and know that there are members who feel the way the moderators do... or they may not feel the way we do, but they can respect why we've removed some things. Like the forum rules say, we only ask for mutual respect.

Thanks.

23 August 2005, 11:39 PM

suzanne

quote:
Originally posted by Texas Rose:
[qb] I agree with Kazzie.

I also stopped reading the Sharon thread - and I didn't even get that far into it.

We have the right to be interested in the artists' music, but we do not have the right to expose every aspect of their private lives.

All I can suggest is that you put yourself in their position as you seek to find out one intimate detail after the other - would you be comfortable it if someone was making that enquiry about you? And remembering that none of these enquiries are stand alone. Each answer provided seems to fuel the fire to dig deeper and get more personal.

I'm not interested in the personal lives of the guys in any way, shape or form (and I have said this before). Because I wouldn't want strangers to be interested in me in that way. And let's remember - we are strangers.

And if you're unsure of where that line denoted as "personal lives" begins, again, apply what you're doing to yourself, and I mean in such a way that you really feel it, and see how you like it.

Let's concentrate on the brilliant music - there's plenty for everyone. [/qb]

Texas Rose, I�d been thinking about what to post, because I was getting angrier by the minute by this blatant invading of the Finn�s PRIVATE life, but I think you�ve said it for me.
I couldn�t agree more.

24 August 2005, 12:57 AM

Bletherskite

I'm a relative newbie to Frenzforum but having been on a few other forums (non finn etc. related), I have been impressed by the way it is run. I don't feel that the occasional off topic wanders (within an on topic discussion) are dealt with heavy handedly unless they happen to be derogatory about other members/artists or just way nasty.

I don't think I've had any posts deleted for being off topic in a thread, even if I had I don't think I would care, although I think I can see why others might. This is a nice way to pass time and chat to (mostly) like minded, courteous people. I honestly cannot see why people are becoming so aggressive over this and previous administrative decsisions. If you want to post about stuff that's not within the rules then go to the other excellent forums like Next Exit or OTS.

I've never felt that frenzforum is not a "community" and have made many frenz through here that I hope I will continue to be in touch with.

The Mods and Debbie have some tough calls and cannot always please every member but I can only see this being done with the best intentions for the board and it's continuing relationship with the artists.

24 August 2005, 12:58 AM

MaryAnn

Frenzmistress

I wanted to post a supportive message, so here it is. I absolutely agree with you on this issue. I can't understand why there is such an issue with this, in fact I find it a bit creepy and obsessive and the language quite over the top. I noticed that the Sharon thread was gone, I hadn't actually read very much of it, I just shrugged my shoulders and kept reading the brilliant stuff that is being posted on this site.

I appreciate the work, time and energy you put into this site and I sure many others do too.

24 August 2005, 05:35 AM

<frenzwebmistress>

I think if you're asking that, you're missing the whole point of every post I've made, every post tonguetied has made, and every post that the members (other than Diamondback) have made.

We've all written a HEAP of information, and instead, you're choosing to go back to the evidence of what was posted when to the Sharon thread. So you're missing the point that Sharon should have privacy, we should respect her, and the moderators will defend that the best way they know how.

The moderators felt that posts had been added that made the whole thread need to go. You're seeing posts here from members who are saying the same thing. I've received private messages from people who said they felt very uncomfy at where that topic went.

It's not my job to prove to you why a topic had to go. The moderators felt it needed to go, and members who remember reading it are echoing that. I'd rather that you hear that and the one zillion other points I made than to push for "but no, WHEN was it deleted."

24 August 2005, 08:06 AM

Texas Rose

OneWhoDreams wrote:

quote:
Now I re-read your 1st reply and have been reading others' comments about how the latest posts on that thread were getting more invasive. I don't recall the posts being as you and the others described. Did I miss something? Well it's finally dawned on me to ask...

quote:
Did I miss something?

Yes. The point.

The thread was removed because it was considered to be invasive.

The moderators do not have to answer to the members before they remove a post.

The moderators will not be warning people when posts are to be deleted for the purposes of saving said posts.

The moderators will not be transferring deleted posts to a "safe house" where you enter by way of a secret password.

I respect your opinion, OneWhoDreams, but I saw neither acknowledgement or acceptance in your most recent post. All I saw was your change of position to come at this situation from a different direction.

If you really do fail to recall the posts as being described by the posters here, then perhaps that in itself illustrates the point that Frenzwebmistress and the other mods have been trying to make - the reason for the removal.

Speaking for myself, I'm extremely touchy about privacy. I revell in my anonymity and will always do so. For that reason I treasure it. And for that reason, I do not go even one centimetre down the road called private life of anyone else, whether they're someone I greatly admire, or someone I really don't know.

If you (or anyone) can't accept that the artists and their families are entitled to their private lives, and if you don't know how to measure the difference between the public and private life because of that, then perhaps you would be gracious enough to acknowledge that there are a team of dedicated moderators here who can offer guidance in that.

I do not intend this post to be interpreted as me speaking for Frenzwebmistress or any of the other mods. I haven't discussed this issue with them, and my interpretation of what has been said may be wrong. If so, I can be told.

As stated above, I just feel extremely strongly on the issue of privacy and would defend anyone in their right to theirs.

24 August 2005, 09:00 AM

sylcar

quote:
Originally posted by OneWhoDreams:
[qb] The last time I visited the thread we spoke of was July 24 (25?). I assumed it had been deleted the next day. What I saw there up to July 24 seemed pretty innocuous (to me anyway).

When I re-visited the forum around Aug. 1, the thread was gone.
[/qb]

This is a fairly fast moving forum - when topics get busy they expand very quickly and can go bad very quickly - in a matter of minutes or hours sometimes.

As a moderator I read every post on this forum - for both the board that I'm responsible for and all others. I do this at least twice a day - that is my commitment as a moderator.

If anything doesn't belong, or if it makes us feel uncomfortable the post or topic is removed swiftly. Quite often we will ask the opinion of the other moderators to see what their opinions are. This tends to give us a fairly good sample of views that our members may have. We don't always agree and that's a good thing as it means that most points of views are covered.

Privacy is something I treasure - very few people on here know a great deal about me - that's my choice. I would hate it if people started invading that just because they felt they could. People need their space - a place where they can be private and share what information they feel comfortable sharing.

We have no right to expect any artist to "share" their family or private life with us. The artist has sought a public life and know that's the payoff for releasing material and having fans etc. Even then they have a right to their own uninteruppted private time. I go to work - when I come home I don't want to be on duty then - why should I expect any artist to be different. When I work - I don't expect my family to become involved in any aspect of my job or to gain attention because of my job, again why should artists be any different.

It doesn't matter when posts were removed, it matters about the content of them, the direction of the topic and how it made people feel. People have explained how they felt about the topic, the administrators have told you why the topic was removed, and asked everyone to be patient as Peter Green is being consulted over this. The topic has gone and will not be back under any circumstances and the reasons have been explained. No matter how you approach this you will get the same answers from everyone.

We try to keep a high standard on this forum, we care about what gets posted on here - and yes we even try to protect you guys from things like lawsuits too. We are not perfect - but then no one is, all we can do is our best. We can never please everyone and we don't aim to - we aim to do the best we can for the forum and it's members. Some of the time that means making unpopular decisions and being slated by people who are not happy with the decisions we've made, but most of the time people understand why we've acted the way we have.

sylcar

24 August 2005, 09:14 AM

<frenzwebmistress>

Wait no more for Peter Green. I had written a long thing that he OK'ed, but seeing as this topic has evolved, I'll just give you the short version.

Peter has said that Sharon has a great sense of humour and can laugh off many of the things she reads. However, she also does value her privacy, and does not feel that everything about her or her family are OK for public display or discussion. For example, magazine photos are OK as those were probably approved. Candid photos a fan may have taken may NOT be OK as they may have captured a moment she thought was private.

The bottom line is that Peter, to date, has had no complaint with how we have run the forum. And he is fully aware of the Sharon thread and the Kashan thread plus why they were removed. He has not asked us to make changes to what we do here, and he is currently comfortable with how we moderate and what we choose to remove. If he ever weren't, we would of course take his input quite seriously! We need to make sure the artists are comfy and would WANT to read this place.

24 August 2005, 05:39 PM

suzanne

OnWhoDreams, I think we�ve got your point by now.
I don�t know where this fascination with Sharon Finn comes from, but I�m starting to feel pretty uncomfortable about it. Leave her and anybody else of the Finn family in peace. It�s none of your business.
I also don�t understand that, if you�ve stopped reading the thread after July 24, a month later you�re still going on about this thread. It�s gone, Deb has explained why and I fully and completely agree with her.
So let it go, it is not very interesting.

24 August 2005, 08:21 PM

Remind me if I'm ever tempted to put my hand up to be a moderator to stick hot needles into my eyeballs.

24 August 2005, 09:43 PM

<frenzwebmistress>

OK so here we are on day #3 of this discussion. We've given you a lot of information. Members are chiming in.

Can you see the Sharon thread. No. If we wanted people to see it, it would be available for you to see. It's that simple.

What's left? Let's narrow this down. What questions do you still have? What haven't we covered here? Let's wrap this up.

25 August 2005, 04:02 AM

Marcus Corander

quote:
thanks for the apology

I've been following this thread with bewildered intrigue. But now I feel I must come out shadows to say I'm astounded that you can even begin to think you deserve an apology from Frenzwebmistress. In fact, I think the reverse would be more in order.

Deb has handled this 3 day rambling complaint with dignity, courtesy and professionalism when we all know shes probably got much better things to do.

quote:
why can't just the offending posts be deleted instead of the entire thread?

As mods we check by (at least) once a day and make sure things stay on topic, and if things have gone awry, we generally just ask people to get back on topic. In some cases, we take the initiative to simply close the topic and we generally only move it if we have real problems with the content. To sift through and delete the inappropriate threads only is unrealistic, as in reality there is no dividing line, threads tend to deteriorate over time as posts lead on from one another and as a result, it is not our policy to delete individual threads in most circumstances.

At the end of the day, Deb and all the other mods are just fans who help out on a fan site for love not money. Some of your suggestions would mean a much larger, and therefore impractical work load.

And... for your information, the last post to the Sharon Finn thread was on the 20th July, and I am one of a number of moderators (and as it transpires, members) who thought the topic was starting to get a bit creepy.

Can we now let this rest?

25 August 2005, 04:10 AM

suzanne

Marcus, I most definitely hope we can.... Kudos to Deb for being so patient!

25 August 2005, 04:25 AM

<frenzwebmistress>

OWD, you're now trying to distract the topic by focusing on my personal life. Has Debbie ever told anyone she's sorry. I've actually apologised during this topic, so I know you're only saying that as a distraction technique plus it's off topic.

To answer your question, there are many topics where we delete some posts. There are topics where we remove the whole thing. The Sharon topic happened to be one that made the moderator team (and some members) uncomfortable, and the choice was made to pull it. In that case, we would not pull some posts and leave others.

As I like to say in certain situations, this is one of those times when there is nothing that I can say that is going to make you feel better. You have made up your mind about certain things, and you're evidently out of ammo since you've switched to pointing at me personally. You're so concerned about me showing respect, and look what you just posted. You have made up your mind about my personal life.

Thank you for proving to all of us why a post like the one about Sharon got pulled. Post stuff like that about members, musicians, or their families, and consider being less surprised about what comes next.

This topic is closed. Our rules and stand have been made clear. I will not be personally put down by someone saying I'm not respectful enough (hi kettle, you're black), all because someone didn't get instant gratification.

Asked and answered. Thanks.