John Scalzi's concerns about OTW, I think, are quite substantiative, IMHO.

http://scalzi.com/whatever/?p=203

He raises the good point, that, if OTW is going to make fanfic "legitimate" in the way that "fair use" and parodies that meet the transformative works rubric are legit, mightn't that mean legitimate in the sense that they can be sold without a red cent going to the original creator? I don't believe these are OTW's intentions. It's just that it is so far unexplained why this might not be an unintended consequence.

[It currently IS a social norm that fans don't make money of their fanfic. In the US. But, social norms could change. If it suddenly became legal for you to make money of your fanfic, and no one could punish you for it, why not do it? The creator might be unhappy, but some fans write fanfic against the wishes of the creator. The current social norm exists because of fear of legal punishment. But, if this norm should collapse because there is no longer any threat of such, then what? It used to be that fans had the attitude that you shouldn't write if the creator didn't want it. That used to be a norm. Now this norm is increasingly collapsing, perhaps thanks to those of theoretical persuasions like those of OTW. If it's legal to sell fanfic, what are the arguments against it? ]

Is the only way to make fanfic legitimate is by getting it seen as a "transformative work?" And, what about the works of fanfic which are not transformative? I think there are some things potentially wrong with this defense of fanfic. I think, though, why not strive for social legitimacy rather than legal legitimacy?

Also, this post is bound to cause wank later: http://hector-rashbaum.livejournal.com/178381.html?style=mine

...but I agree with a lot of it. I still am confused as to whether anime is part of or not part of this so called media fandom.

[EDIT: Ohoh. If you don't know who these people are, YOU LIVE IN A CAVE. Oh please. I also fail to see how a personal website shows anything. Actually, the whole flamewar proves h_r's point, really.]

(Post a new comment)

white_serpent
2007-12-14 07:40 pm UTC (link)

I'm stunned it hasn't caused more wank yet.

I honestly have no clue what Astolat's fanfiction (or pro novels, for that matter) is like, because I haven't read it, I've never interacted with her, and she's not in my fandoms. So, the "you ignoramus" bits... look, I am familiar with the names of a lot of BNFs; it doesn't mean I know more than that about them.

Speranza seems vaguely familiar, but I have no clue who she is.

Media fandom thinks anime is part of media fandom. Anime fandom does not, unless things have changed a lot.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

charmian
2007-12-14 08:03 pm UTC (link)

So am I. No one has even gotten into "and what if they bring the lawsuit, lose, and set a precedent against fanfic?"

I haven't read any of her fic either. Some people on my flist like her novels, Meril read them and was kind of eh. She told me about some worldbuilding things about them that made me think I should just read the series when it's done, so I haven't read the books yet.

Totally with you there. h_r's point is well taken. If they want to really claim to represent all of these fandoms, not just the fandoms they come from, it would be better for them to explain just what their involvement is, because people outside the fandom are just not going to know. But yeah, the "are you living in a hole?" type of statements really just go to show something. :P

Indeed. Anime fandom predominantly female? Huh. Some anime fandoms. As a whole... dubious. The whole "predominantly female" controversy is totally beginning to remind me of the "feral fan" thing where people posited that one of the characteristics of the "domesticated fandom" was that it was created by women.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

meril
2007-12-14 10:28 pm UTC (link)

I was talking with someone last night about the "female space" issue and we came to the conclusion that the OTW definition of fandom is going to run into all sorts of trouble soon if the primary purpose of the org is not the archive/wiki/fanhistory but the legal defense of use of others' IP. Considering the thread over at BoingBoing where two men posted about "this is great; I make machinima, are you guys going to defend us?" and "this legal defense is a great idea, my fansite [presumably not fanfic] got a C&D" it looks like the outside world, including non-ficcing fandom, is primarily seeing the IP law side of the project. Perhaps they should concentrate on the legal issues of vidding first, because vids are usually the first things to get removed off of hosts--far before fanfic does.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

charmian
2007-12-15 04:41 am UTC (link)

IIRC, though, isn't the real issue the vids get removed is not because of the clips from TV shows and movies, but because of the music? If I make a video of this anime show using a song of some artist, and the artist complains, I can say I was transforming the anime show, but can I say so of the mp3? Honestly, then that's like using an mp3 if I made my own original animation and just used the song because I liked it and thought it fit the scene.

Actually, they should also defend machinima. It's an obvious extension, except that machinima is male, even if it is transformative... so I suppose OTW might be defining transformative works as "predominantly female." But yeah, for people outside of fandom, the IP stuff is the most interesting. Just making a new archive software for stories or writing a history of a subculture is not going to interest outsiders, but people outside of fanfic and fandom have a stake in IP issues, definitely.

(Reply to this)(Parent)

	notjo 2007-12-15 02:37 am UTC (link)
	Wait, anime fandom is predominately female? WHICH anime fandom? Cuz, the last few years I was involved in our Anime Convention and the Anime Clubs and the like, they were not only Fanboy!dominant in terms of numbers, one of the people who ran for president won simply because he agreed to fight "stinky smelling fanboys" or some such nonsense. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

charmian
2007-12-15 04:42 am UTC (link)

Some anime fandoms are, many are not.

That's what I think of (anime clubs, cons) when I think of anime fandom. So if anime fandom is to be accepted as an equal partner, they're going to have to do something about that line....

Now, none of this would be a problem if they simply said they were inherently representing all "female spaces" in fandom, and put that in the title, I think.

(Reply to this)(Parent)

meril
2007-12-14 10:19 pm UTC (link)

I can't get to LJ now, but through some miracle I can get to Scalzi's blog, so I'm going to talk about that.

The guy in comment #201 and #214 is right on about what the real issue is; it's not legitimacy for fandom, it's whether or not IP laws can restrict art and culture. (And he's apparently a lawyer. Interesting.) "The case that shuts down your fanfic site has a good chance of being precedent when a record label seeks an injunction against a mashup artist or a writer’s estate goes after an unauthorized sequel, satire or parody."

It's why I'm glad the Stanford Fair Use Project has taken on the HP Lexicon case. Fair use is under attack, and it's harming academic discourse.

(Reply to this)

*dropping in from the F_W friendslist*
flightstothesea
2007-12-14 11:03 pm UTC (link)

Reading that LJ post you just linked has made me feel even worse about these people and their self-aggrandising quest to Make Fandom Legitimate (which reads to me like a quest to Gain Media Exposure and Cred for Themselves, especially after the "HOW CAN YOU NOT KNOW WHO THESE PEOPLE ARE?" idiocy). Honestly, I don't think fandom as a whole is interested in being legitimised. It's been around for a very long time, even in internet terms, without needing legal defense funds or self-important pseudointellectual language to defend itself. This whole thing stinks, and I will be very glad if/when it loses steam.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

Re: *dropping in from the F_W friendslist*

charmian
2007-12-15 04:32 am UTC (link)

Well, I don't think they all can be represented by the idiotic person "do you live in a cave?!?!?" person, but while they may have good intentions, I think they do need to think more about who they are really representing, and whether all of these groups agree on their a) goal, and b) methods. I think most fanfic writers would like to see their hobby held in more esteem, or at least just winked at, but I'm not sure all of them want it to be done so in this way.

(Reply to this)(Parent)