limyaael
2008-07-20 01:17 pm UTC (link)

This is exactly why I think OTW is going to crash and burn. They claim to be respectful of the differences in fandom, but they're acting exactly like the stereotypical fans when someone is on the other side of an argument: mocking them, setting up strawmen, and refusing to admit that their views might have merit. The main problem is that this is an argument that their opponents see as reaching outside fandom, while OTW is behaving as if it's solely within fandom.

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	charmian 2008-07-20 01:35 pm UTC (link)
	Yeah, and also, different fandoms do have different standards of behavior. It's going to cause problems in fandom this way too, and also, these things are even more public than they are already when they're connected to a group which seeks a public profile. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

limyaael
2008-07-20 10:14 pm UTC (link)

See, some OTW defenders say they aren't trying to represent the whole of fandom, just the kind that corresponds to their own method of doing things and interests (that is, female-dominated slash media fandom). But they don't seem to have taken steps to contradict the impression that they want to be "the face of fandom," and certainly by setting up a journal and calling themselves an umbrella organization they're making it seem like they represent anyone who wants to write about, organize around, or campaign for fanworks of any kind.

SF fandom seems predominantly to laugh at them. (At least, I think I remember an entry in John Scalzi's blog where a lot of commentators did). Even if OTW achieves enough power/prominence to represent a lot of fanfiction writers and fanartists, they're deluded if they think they're the only organization out there that matters to fandom.

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	charmian 2008-07-20 11:00 pm UTC (link)
	If that's so, they should make clear that they are just one type of fandom, I think. But they really... haven't. Not sure to what degree that is intentional and what not. Oh, really? I had no idea how aware SF fandom was of them. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

limyaael
2008-07-20 11:58 pm UTC (link)

I don't think they really know. Or else a lot of their supporters think media slash fandom is fandom. (There was a lot of spouting in the early defenders' posts about how "fandom traces its lineage back to Kirk/Spock", which is obviously untrue if you're looking at anime fandom or SF fandom).

Scalzi's post is here. Scalzi thinks they're idiots for challenging the copyright laws, not because they don't have moral right on their side, but because there's no way they'd ever win. As he puts it, "First, and as a simple, practical matter, there’s the OTW on one side of this legal argument, with what it identifies as fandom. On the other side of this argument is an entire entertainment industry, with almost unlimited phalanxes of lawyers and lobbyists. This point isn’t about legal right and wrong; it’s a notation of the relative amount of resources each side can throw at the issue."

Of course some OTW members have said the legal argument is not their main focus, but then, I get a headache about the convolutions they've gone through on that issue.

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	charmian 2008-07-21 12:25 am UTC (link)
	Oh dear. Ah, so he agrees with Ethrosdemon. I think what he says makes a lot of sense there. Yeah... well, I understand for some members it may not be the main focus, but for people outside of fanfic-writing fandom, it certainly sounds like the most original point. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	white_serpent 2008-07-21 07:56 pm UTC (link)
	Lee Goldberg actually had a post on OTW, too, around the same time. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	spare_change 2008-07-20 03:06 pm UTC (link)
	Well, I'll borrow from OTW's incessantly ad hominem tactics and point out that Ithiliana has always been a crazy-as-bugfuck bitch. (Ooh! That was fun!) (Reply to this)(Thread)

	spare_change 2008-07-20 03:11 pm UTC (link)
	And I already feel bad for saying that, but after the shit she and some of her colleagues have flung at me personally for daring to disagree with them, and her fangirling Elynros's post which called anyone who doesn't like OTW an idiot, I'm going to let it stand. :/ (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

charmian
2008-07-20 09:58 pm UTC (link)

You know, I notice that Elynross doesn't actually LINK to many of these discussions. So, that just allows them the ability to characterize everyone in them just as they please, and the reader can't judge things for themselves. It may not be intentional, but since the readers can't read it, they just caricature the arguments and assume that the posts said things that, if you read them, directly contradict what you would assume based on reading Elynross's post. It is probably not intentional on her part, but this unwillingness to actually cite anything leads to a de facto strawmanning.

Essentially, the responses this time around have convinced me it's kind of a waste of time participating on discussions on this. I had already kind of thought that, but this confirms it even more to me. Most of my flist is entirely indifferent to these issues, being in anime fandom, so it's also very easy for me to ignore.

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spare_change
2008-07-20 10:23 pm UTC (link)

The thing that really got me on Elynross's post was the thread in which they argued that those who don't support the OTW just want to be cool and subversive. Whereas isn't the whole point of OTW about trying to get public and professional legitimacy for writing "transformative" works ... i.e., be cool and subversive?

it's kind of a waste of time participating on discussions on this

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. And the sad thing is that they just posted some info on their archive, and (after a cursory skim), it all sounds great. If only they could have just stuck to the notion of creating an archive, instead of bothering with all this other nonsense ... now the archive itself is going to be tainted in the eyes of a lot of possible users by default, and that's too bad.

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charmian
2008-07-20 11:05 pm UTC (link)

Ah, quelle ironie.

Oh yeah, I saw that too. Did they post what their policy was if a DMCA or C&D was received? The DMCA is very much a known quantity. I would guess that they would make like LJ or any other Safe Harbor provider and just boot it to the user to decide. I'm confused by the argument that keeps coming up that a multi-fandom archive will necessarily be destroyed by such a C&D. It seems to me that ff.net is still up and running, for all its flaws, even after copyright holders have gotten certain sections removed.

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spare_change
2008-07-21 12:22 am UTC (link)

I didn't even look, lol! But you know, HP archives like the Restricted Section have received C&Ds and were able to keep going. So it's all kind of tautological: the archive organizers are arguing that the OTW is necessary because of a (heretofore almost non-existent and/or easily-handled) threat ... so they need to do all this work publicizing fanfic and copyright issues in order to put fandom more at threat than ever before -- and thus create a reason for OTW to exist in the first place!

Well, that's cynical of me, but hey. >:D

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charmian
2008-07-21 12:30 am UTC (link)

Although, that was rather a limited one? Like JKR wasn't saying Cease and Desist entirely, just more saying "you know, uh, I like fanfic... but can you password protect the pr0nz?"

Actually... considering JKR's stated policy, what are they going to do if her lawyers send them that exact same letter? That is actually a really good question. It's not a purely speculative possibility, but something actually based on past actions of JKR's lawyers.

http://www.chillingeffects.org/fanfic/notice.cgi?NoticeID=522

Text of the letter here.

The DMCA allows a website a lot of out based on safe harbor, in which you can just boot to the user and tell them "hey, if you want to comply, fine, if not, you file the DMCA counter-claim and it's out of my hands." A C&D, less so.

Hmmmm.

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	spare_change 2008-07-21 12:36 am UTC (link)
	Good points! (And it highlights that we already have a fine organization -- Chilling Effects -- doing all the legal work that fandom supposedly needs OTW so desperately for.) I think there was another example of a C&D that was easily resolved, but I am racking my brain and not remembering it. :/ (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	charmian 2008-07-21 12:42 am UTC (link)
	Indeed. Although I'm not sure if Chilling Effects is taking the line that fanfic is never, under any circumstatnces, infringement, as OTW appears to be. Yeah, and the letters seem to indicate that often lawyers view "only for over 18!" as enticement. >_< (Reply to this)(Parent)

	white_serpent 2008-07-21 07:57 pm UTC (link)
	I think there was another example of a C&D that was easily resolved, but I am racking my brain and not remembering it. :/ The Potter Slash Archive, I believe. (Reply to this)(Parent)

charmian
2008-07-20 09:51 pm UTC (link)

Well, I recall she was the one behind that FAQ section. >_> But well, she can be as crazy as she likes, but the fact that so many people agree with what she has done produces the bad impression with me.

It really does seem like people find her post legitimate... disappointing. She says in the comments that NONE of the people she was mocking deserve to be taken seriously. The fact that one can't think of a way to respond to a stance does not mean that it should necessarily be dismissed out of hand or those who hold it should be disrespected.

" So yeah, have to find out who isin which group (which is why I did not bother to engage with the posters who helped inspire this parody--there's no point, and more importantly nobody is paying me! so I don't have to deal with their bad writing)."

She does this for a living?

Wow, so everyone who criticizes OTW is just the same! Ethrosdemon is just the same as Michela because both have records of having criticized the OTW! And that makes you so dumb/crazy that you don't deserve any respect or accurate representation! Ironically, the person talking to her then wonders why people (apparently) who criticize the OTW don't want to discuss that issue....

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spare_change
2008-07-20 10:19 pm UTC (link)

Ithiliana is just so disingenuous and incapable of logic or rational argumentation. The whole idea of respecting the point-of-view of the person you're debating with is utterly lost on her. (Interestingly, she has the worst scores I've ever seen on RateMyProfessor, and I would not be surprised if this was one major reason why.)

Honestly, despite the inherent wankiness that is academia, I've always been ridiculously proud of the fact that it generally demands a level of collegiality and civility I've found otherwise lacking in a lot of other RL spheres of interaction. The behavior I've witnessed in acafen since entering fandom has really kind of staggered me ... especially because after all these years I've yet to find parallels in my RL academic dealings, where folks continue to be lovely and smart and engaged and know how to disagree without flaming their opponent into oblivion ...

It disgusts and depresses me, and -- as I said in Ethrosdemon's post -- what bothers me more is that everyone seems to find this acceptable. I mean, look at Elfwreck, who compares fanfic to interracial relationships and gay marriage, espouses really ugly racist beliefs, and who is infamous for trolling every post that even dares to mildly question what the OTW is doing. Yet because she's on the right side of issues like OTW, she does all this without censure. (In fact, I was once scolded for pointing out that she's a racist by someone who has her on her flist!) Meanwhile, if you have a problem with the OTW, then you are somehow exempt from simple human courtesy ... the double standard here astounds me.

Anyway, one thing I've seen a lot of people say is that they know the people running/volunteering for OTW have the best of intentions. And that would seem to be a pretty uncontroversial thing to argue. Except after having seen the utter lack of good faith with which they've responded to non-OTW supporters, it really makes me wonder what the real agenda is here. I don't really care enough to guess what it might be ... fannish and professional self-aggrandizement would seem to be a big part of it ... but I dunno.

There was a brilliant post by "lol internets" (I think she's Miss Windy on FW?) a few months back that sums this all up perfectly: http://ohinternets.livejournal.com/26706.html?style=mine

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charmian
2008-07-20 11:10 pm UTC (link)

She's like.... a professor of rhetoric, or so she claims?

Yep, no one seems to remember what Elfwreck has said. Maybe they didn't see, but she seems to be a member in good standing and no one brought it up. Maybe people in fandom don't really care that much about racism, or they didn't see her post, but damn, that part where she compared fanfic to gay marriage, and many people WERE publicly offended... all that has been forgotten about.

I really don't know about the individuals. I'd say the archive looks fairly done in good faith though. I wonder to what extent it will succeed? So far the structure of it seems fairly uncontroversial to potential users.

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spare_change
2008-07-21 12:27 am UTC (link)

Ithiliana teaches English, not rhetoric, so once again she is stretching the truth to fit her own aims, lol. I have no idea where this point about teaching argumentation comes in ... probably she was just referring to composition courses and teaching essay-writing skills.

I think you're right that no one remembers what Elfwreck says (or, at least, I prefer that option to everyone simply not caring, which is just as possible). But of course I don't necessarily see that collective amnesia as value-free. What gets remembered and forgotten in fandom is as political as anything else. Anyway, I've actually tried to address this with a couple of folks on my flist, asking them why they hell they continued to support her and condone her behavior, but it just ended up coming up with tortuous ways to defend the racist things Elfwreck said, which was even worse.

It will be curious to see what happens with the archive ... it's hard for me to disentangle the (no doubt laudable) motives that created it with all the other malice and bullshit floating about ... which is a shame, really.

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	charmian 2008-07-21 12:38 am UTC (link)
	Possibly it's because some of the stuff she said was on insanejournal, and a lot of people don't look at places outside. Pleh. Yeah... I don't have any problem with the archive. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	white_serpent 2008-07-21 07:47 am UTC (link)
	Well, her post is pretty obviously a response to Michela's post on fanthropology, as well. That fanthropology post is ironic in so many ways I can't even express. (Reply to this)(Thread)

	charmian 2008-07-21 09:59 am UTC (link)
	Oh yeah, it definitely is. If she had just parodied that post by Michela, I wouldn't have bothered to write anything. I'm just annoyed that it implies unrelated people are involved in that dispute. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

white_serpent
2008-07-21 09:11 pm UTC (link)

Michela told most of her former friends that we were not to link to her precious wiki or else. [Do you see part of why the fanthropology post is ironic?]

The only reason I even know what's going on with this OTW outing is that when it originally happened, Michela was contacted and claimed that all of the sysops on the FH wiki were polled and agreed with the outing.

This was, of course, a lie, because her former friends were all still technically sysops of FH. Given that we weren't to link to it, you can safely bet that we were not polled on her policies.

Someone asked her very nicely if she would remove us as sysops, and, lo, she did.

Honestly, not only do people not agree, I'd bet you the vast majority have no clue it even happened at all.

Michela is not the chosen representative of people unsupportive of OTW.

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charmian
2008-07-21 10:15 pm UTC (link)

Ahhaah, this story even gets more bizarre. It is quite ironic indeed.

Michela is not the chosen representative of people unsupportive of OTW.

Given that in her fanthropology post the word "OTW" does not even appear, and that neither Ethrosdemon or Onelittlesleep seem to be friends of hers, I'm in some ways at a loss to see why Ithiliana believes it is logical to mock all three parties at once.

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white_serpent
2008-07-21 10:50 pm UTC (link)

Given that in her fanthropology post the word "OTW" does not even appear, and that neither Ethrosdemon or Onelittlesleep seem to be friends of hers, I'm in some ways at a loss to see why Ithiliana believes it is logical to mock all three parties at once.

It does tend to put a new perspective on the portion of that post where everyone is patting themselves on the back for being so very open to discussion of alternative viewpoints.

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	charmian 2008-07-22 01:17 am UTC (link)
	Indeed. It seems there is a major gap between their self-perception on that count, and that of those possessing 'alternate viewpoints.' (Reply to this)(Parent)